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Why is there so much hate towards Evangelion?


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Ggultra2764
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Joined: 21 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:37 pm Reply with quote
Arkthelad wrote:
You’re still failing to identify when and how this sudden unnatural mood shift takes place. Without explaining this you’re not actually supporting your arguement.


That, I already covered in one of my earlier posts. You, on the other hand, seem insistent on picking me apart when I laid out my general opinion of the series.

Quote:
The religious symbols have meaning in the sense that the plot ends up incorporating elements that do exist in religious beliefs like the apocalypse and life after physical death. They just don’t have any meaning in the context of the specific religions they refer to (ie Eva isn't trying to promote Jewish beliefs etc). We know this because the writers have always stated that this was the case. It’s not a secret.


Except that you have a certain section of the show's fanbase thinking said symbols have deeper meaning beyond "rule of cool", which was what I was arguing.

Quote:
Seriously? How is the belief that life has no objective meaning restricted to existentialism and nihilism? In fact unless you’re a religious person, believing that life does have an objective meaning makes no sense whatsoever. Also nihilism is a concept, it isn’t a school of philosophy.


Life does have an objective meaning though: to experience life. Objective meaning doesn't just come from relying on a concept like believing in the idea of a divine being. It also comes from relying on others who have an understanding of the type of person you are, since humans are social creatures who rely on one another in order to function in society. People then cultivate their own perceptions on living through observations, upbringing, knowledge, experiences and so forth with whatever decisions they make influenced on the personal beliefs they cultivate from the mentioned elements. And yeah, I might have goofed on calling nihilism a school of thought, though I would consider it more a belief system (as it has a laid-out body of teachings and principles) than a concept (any abstract object or mental representation).

Quote:
What makes you think JesuOtaku has deep knowledge of philosophy? In her review she claimed that Evangelion’s message was in line with something called “Post-Modern Existentialism”. There is no such thing. She had to invent a school of philosophy in order back up her arguements.


Might want to re-think the "inventing" part by looking at this. You can even find textbooks discussing it. Razz


Last edited by Ggultra2764 on Thu May 02, 2013 10:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sleverin



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:33 am Reply with quote
Wait, did you quote yourself and then reply to yourself and fix your original post, or am I just reading the quotes wrong?
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Knoepfchen



Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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Location: Catalonia

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 12:59 pm Reply with quote
rheiders wrote:
^^Trigun also uses a lot of Christian symbolism in a respectful way. Nightow himself is Catholic.


This might not necessarily be correct, though, at least according to this interview. Still, Trigun certainly explores its religious (and not just Christian) and moral themes a lot more than Evangelion, but, personally, I never thought the latter one's symbolism provided much more than a framework for the personal and psychological conflicts of its characters. Having the angels blow up in cross shapes might just have felt as cool to the creators as it feels to Westerners to get themselves tattooed with (hopefully correctly chosen) cool kanji characters. To call the mecha Evas and have them made from creatures called Adam and Lilith (who will turn out to be spoiler[the one pretty much ending the human condition/setting them free from their suffering] or however you want to interpret the ending) is more than pure symbolism, though, but still not (much) more than providing a fitting framework for the individual struggles of the characters.
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Arkthelad



Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:41 pm Reply with quote
Ggultra2764 wrote:
That, I already covered in one of my earlier posts.


Sorry, I forgot that you mentioned the Unit 3 episode before. Okay. How does this represent an unnatural mood shift? Lets’ look at the previous 4 episodes;

17) Build up to unit 3 being delivered. Thousands of people die in unit 4 explosion. Generally sombre and menacing tone to the episode.

16) Tokyo 3 nearly sinks into the ground and Shinji nearly dies

15) Shinji visits mothers grave, Misato feels depressed about being immature and it turns out that NERV is keeping the angel that nearly destroyed earth in the basement.

14) Unit 0 goes nuts with Shinji inside and nearly kills him.

Where is this sudden unnatural mood shift? How are the events of ep18 out of place?

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Objective meaning doesn't just come from relying on a concept like believing in the idea of a divine being. It also comes from relying on others who have an understanding of the type of person you are, since humans are social creatures who rely on one another in order to function in society. People then cultivate their own perceptions on living through observations, upbringing, knowledge, experiences and so forth with whatever decisions they make influenced on the personal beliefs they cultivate from the mentioned elements.


Everything you’ve mentioned has nothing to do with objectivity and everything to do with subjectivity. You’ve also just basically given a text book definition of existentialism.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Might want to re-think the "inventing" part by looking at this.


You might want to reconsider posting links before actually reading the content. I think you misunderstood the subheading. The page just discusses Existentialism, post-modernism and other philosophies in the 20th century. There is no discussion of anything called “Post-Modern Existentialsm” anywhere on that page.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
You can even find textbooks discussing it.


Again, it would be better if you read the contents of the link first. The “Post-Modern” in the book title is referring to an era within academia/society not the concept, ie like you would say Post-Reagan Conservatism. More importantly, that is the only text on Amazon that actually references that phrase. What does that tell you?
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Ggultra2764
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:47 pm Reply with quote
Arkthelad wrote:
Where is this sudden unnatural mood shift? How are the events of ep18 out of place?


The start of Shinji's descent into angst-ridden madness for Anno's nihilist direction of the series when he was starting to become mentally healthy as earlier episodes of the series progressed and the start of the decline in the show's quality.

Quote:
Everything you’ve mentioned has nothing to do with objectivity and everything to do with subjectivity. You’ve also just basically given a text book definition of existentialism.


Existentialists treat the belief of "humans can only think subjectively" as an absolute truth, while it is possible for people to think through a decision through reason and knowledge obtained through other means (people, research, etc...) without allowing personal feelings and beliefs to impact them with the proper mindset. Objective truth is whatever is agreed to be true beyond individual accounts and is still needed by individuals to come to their own conclusions about how to live their lives or make use of the knowledge they gain from said "truth". Regardless of ideology, religion, philosophy, or other groups of knowledge or belief, such groups all share the common objective in trying to understand life. Regardless of one's own personal beliefs, there is no perfect system of thought or belief as there will always be imperfections to be found in them. Are you an existentialist yourself or do you think Anno's preaching is some sort of inspirational message that I find more cynical and mentally unhealthy?

Quote:
You might want to reconsider posting links before actually reading the content. I think you misunderstood the subheading. The page just discusses Existentialism, post-modernism and other philosophies in the 20th century. There is no discussion of anything called “Post-Modern Existentialsm” anywhere on that page.


Quote:
Again, it would be better if you read the contents of the link first. The “Post-Modern” in the book title is referring to an era within academia/society not the concept, ie like you would say Post-Reagan Conservatism. More importantly, that is the only text on Amazon that actually references that phrase. What does that tell you?


Touche on the first link. However, the second one still has merit. Jesu's account on postmodern existentialism has to do with the application of existential beliefs into the late 20th century that were used by Anno for Eva. The final two episodes of the TV series that create introspection of the characters are well documented to having been cobbled together due to the show's tightened budget. Jesu was criticizing the relevance of existentialism's use in looking into Shinji's condition as introspection (a major element of existentialism) would do more harm than good for the boy without having others to help him due to having limitations on identifying his personal problems on his own. Not learning to rely on others when needed would only make Shinji's hole of angst even deeper, which the direction of Evangelion regrettably goes because of Anno's obsession of digging into the mental dilemmas of the human condition without showing a way out of them.
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amarielah



Joined: 11 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:52 am Reply with quote
For me, it actually has nothing to do with Shinji. I rather appreciate him for the deconstruction of the happy-go-lucky shounen hero that he is.

I don't dislike it, necessarily, so much as I think it had wasted potential. Pretentious philosophizing in place of genuine conflict; not to mention appropriating the imagery of my own religious tradition (Judaism), as well as that of Christianity, without representing it accurately or respectfully.

It was a game-changer, and it has some great ideas. But it fell short in a lot of ways.
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Spotlesseden



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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:24 am Reply with quote
find me alot of hates first.
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Mesonoxian Eve



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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:33 pm Reply with quote
I've not seen a single episode of this series, nor have I watched any of the movies, because I hate this series with a passion.

All thanks to anime fans.

Arkthelad, this series has always had its haters from the first day it was released. I still remember the video store at my college was making copies of the series because it was so demanded, the few copies they had were out too long (7 day rentals, if you can believe they once existed).

If you've ever traversed a Star Wars discussion site, you'll get an idea of how it was back then. So many debates on what the series was trying to do and preach, and I just promised myself I'd never watch the show.

Now, this may be something many people would say is stupid, and I won't disagree, but I'm honest enough to know that these comments already painted a picture of the series long before I've seen it. In short, it would be impossible, now, for me to enjoy (or dislike) the series because the comments have tainted it.

Don't think for a second this is hogwash. It's absolutely, and without question, a very practical application of one's enjoyment. If people stated, repeatedly, a series is "bad because of [x]", you will subjectively look for this "[x]" and deem it for yourself if the comments are valid.

Point is: you're already detracted, because "[x]" is now the focus, and not the enjoyment of the series as you'd like to do without influence.

If I'm interested in a series now, I stay the hell away from anime fans. Their opinions are often jaded if they hate it, or overly praise elements they found enjoyable and inadvertently spoil the show without realizing their comments are doing so.

As innocuous as it may seem, even a non-descriptive statement of "I really enjoyed how episode 3 ended. It was a complete surprise, and it's surely the reason the series can be a step above the rest" is a spoiler, because it puts into the mind of the reader an expectation to look out for.

Reminds me of the archeologist credo which states to observe the natural world, one must not be a part of it, which makes it impossible to do.

Same thing with anime.

I will say this, though: the red head's a cutie. Smile
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errinundra
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:40 pm Reply with quote
I've been a hater of Evangelion, although I've mellowed over time, and my attitude is only partly related to Shinji. He is but one element of the problem, which is that in its characterisation, the relationships, their dilemmas, the tone, philosophy, plot, giant robot action, fan-service and attitude Evangelion is oh so adolescent, and male-adolescent-centric to boot. I had the misfortune of first seeing it in my late forties: it had me rolling my eyes from the very start. I couldn't take it seriously.

Most anime is aimed at adolescent males, of course, but many also have a resonance for older viewers (and for females as well). Evangelion isn't one of them. I have a theory that those who love Evangelion first watched it as adolescents and their lingering affection is largely nostalgia. Or they're still adolescent at heart.
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Sleverin



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:43 pm Reply with quote
errinundra wrote:
I've been a hater of Evangelion, although I've mellowed over time, and my attitude is only partly related to Shinji. He is but one element of the problem, which is that in its characterisation, the relationships, their dilemmas, the tone, philosophy, plot, giant robot action, fan-service and attitude Evangelion is oh so adolescent, and male-adolescent-centric to boot. I had the misfortune of first seeing it in my late forties: it had me rolling my eyes from the very start. I couldn't take it seriously.

Most anime is aimed at adolescent males, of course, but many also have a resonance for older viewers (and for females as well). Evangelion isn't one of them. I have a theory that those who love Evangelion first watched it as adolescents and their lingering affection is largely nostalgia. Or they're still adolescent at heart.


This is how I've also felt about the series as well. I touched upon this earlier that if I was an angst ridden teen worried about what are now silly things, I would have loved this. As an adult though, it's just not all that impactful. I won't lie, the imagery and the use of Biblical names had me enraptured that it would yield and interesting, and possibly important message. I found that any deep message was being projected as the audience onto the work itself. It's not a terrible, horrible, unwatchable show, but it does get overpraised.
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CrisGer A.A.



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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:19 pm Reply with quote
I find this series vastly over publicized and promoted. It is really second rate even for the time when it was made.. Nothing about it justifies it being considered a classic even worthy of this sort of thread. The director had serious attitude and emotional problems of his own clearly for the series became chaotic and just about incoherent by the end, and the original fugue ending where he trashed all the main characters in a matter of minutes was beyond belief and just disgusting.

For the last part of the series, it gets more and more predictable and boring, and one loses interest in the outcome and any allegiance one has formed for any of them just is meaningless. Shinji is without a doubt one of the least interesting main protagonists and i could care less what happened to him then or in any of the bizarre remake movie attempts to redeem the series. Why do they bother? Why waste the time and talent it takes to make anything in anime form on such drivel?

It is not a matter of hating, it is a matter of there being nothing there to either love or hate, it is just boring and vacuous. Another case like Studio Ghibili, of western fans getting hot and bothered about second and third rate anime for all the wrong reasons. There are fortunately much much better series and anime movies to enjoy.
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ZorgonXtreme



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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:23 pm Reply with quote
Honestly...

After reading all these posts, I see that a big part of it, say 80%, is the simple case of 'stop liking what I don't like'.

Also, the concept of not being able to disconnect what other people think of a piece of media and that piece of media itself is so amazingly foreign to me. I can't imagine not liking something simply because others are passionate about it, badgering or no. If somebody tells me to watch something because it's 'going to change my life' and it doesn't, then it doesn't and I don't think less of either thing simply because of that prior exchange.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:41 am Reply with quote
errinundra wrote:
Most anime is aimed at adolescent males, of course, but many also have a resonance for older viewers (and for females as well). Evangelion isn't one of them. I have a theory that those who love Evangelion first watched it as adolescents and their lingering affection is largely nostalgia. Or they're still adolescent at heart.


Go over to Evageeks and check out what kind of people write there. Some are older than you. Some don't like anime. Many are women. Philosophy graduates (Shouldn't they feel insulted by Eva's "shallow philosophy"?), film students, psychologists, civil servants. Some watch it for the characters, some for themes, some for the artsy stuff, some for sci-fi and mecha aspects. Even if there is a grain of truth in what you say, lumping them all together in one convenient group to legitimize your own opinions is unfair and will likely insult a number of people.
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Mesonoxian Eve



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 1858

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:10 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
(Shouldn't they feel insulted by Eva's "shallow philosophy"?)

Perhaps you're misunderstanding.

If you're going into the show to dig for philosophical messages, it's going beyond the scope of entertainment. In regard to Star Wars, I have no care in the world if the Sith are Catholics trying to turn the Protestant Jedi (and vice versa). I do not care to know the force is a hidden message of witch craft use.

To me, these all play a large role that's outside the definition of "entertainment" most people would relate. To most, a simple viewing of a show, and walking away with a like/dislike feeling toward it, is more than sufficient.

Those who get into a show so much is when it becomes a problem because they're injecting their viewpoints of what they see to found their basis for why the show goes beyond entertainment.

It's not wrong, if that's the inaccurate message people took away from my post, but it does leave a thought to those who read these comments and indirectly affects the enjoyment.

Here's an example:
ZorgonXtreme wrote:
f somebody tells me to watch something because it's 'going to change my life' and it doesn't...

The discussion lead to the viewing. Question is: if the remark wasn't made at all, would the show have been viewed?

Of course, it's easy to argue one way or the other, but to deny the conversation had a role in the viewing is not something I'd accept as a truth.

It happens all the time, honestly. Even a movie preview is luring people into an expectation of what the movie is to deliver.

Don't believe me? Go watch the preview clip for Pacific Rim.

Or don't. I wouldn't want this discussion to sway your expectation of what you're about to see.
Wink
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jl07045



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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:52 pm Reply with quote
Whatever works for you. At least you're not hating on it because someone said something about it AND IT WASN'T TRUE!!!

Personally I think it's perfectly possible and even advisable to put aside the hype and half-formed opinions and watch something with a fresh look.
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