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Why is there so much hate towards Evangelion?


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CrispyCritter



Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:29 pm Reply with quote
errinundra wrote:
Most anime is aimed at adolescent males, of course, but many also have a resonance for older viewers (and for females as well). Evangelion isn't one of them. I have a theory that those who love Evangelion first watched it as adolescents and their lingering affection is largely nostalgia. Or they're still adolescent at heart.

Sorry, I disagree strongly with you here. Evangelion is what drew me into the entire genre; it had a large impact on me and convinced me that "cartoons" could actually look at human issues seriously. I was 50 at the time.

Now, 8 years later, I have a collection of 150-200 anime series - but Evangelion is still in my top 10.
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Set1229



Joined: 30 May 2012
Posts: 47
Location: Pittsburgh

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:57 am Reply with quote
Personally, I only dislike the series, but not hate it. In fact, I liked the TV ending, but at times it was too dark for me to handle (I was always easy to upset).
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jsc315



Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 923

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:49 am Reply with quote
I think a lot of it has to do with the ending and people really not understanding it at all. I love how the TV series ended, my problem is End of EVA.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1711

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:27 pm Reply with quote
I once spent quite a bit of time defending Eva in general, and Shinji in particular, from friends of mine who strongly disliked it...until I eventually swung around to strongly disliking it myself. Now I think I'm somewhere in the middle. From something like an academic standpoint, I think Eva as a series is a fascinating look at what happens when a director who's suffering from severe clinical depression attempts a deconstruction of the mecha genre with very flawed protagonists. Out of the Rebuild movies, I've only seen 1.11 so far, but I'm very interested in seeing how the perspective of time has changed Anno's take on the material. But from a narrative standpoint, as a piece of entertainment that's telling a story, Eva winds up becoming an utter mess; I could probably spend far more time than I'd ever want to writing about why. Plus the bastards ran out of ink. Razz

(And speaking as someone who's had some "upstairs" issues himself, I can't identify with Shinji in the least. Indeed, most of the characters feel more like summary pages out of the DSM-IV than anything resembling flesh-and-blood people.)

Just as one example, I do agree with the earlier assertion that the show winds up taking a hard turn straight towards a very pessimistic outlook for most of the characters, and I think it's summed up pretty well by what happens with Rei. I've honestly never understood how people can be "fans" of Rei, because I generally feel like a character should have at least a shred of, well, character in order for that to happen. At the beginning, she might as well be a block of wood. But over time, she does start to develop hints of personality and individuality, even as Shinji seems to be coming to terms with his own role. spoiler[And then just as Rei gets to that point, there's the climactic fight with whatever Angel where she sacrifices herself to save Shinji. That's not necessarily a horrible thing by itself...but then she gets replaced by a copy from the tank of Tang, which pulls a hard reset on her personality all the way back to episode 1, which then stays unchanged through the end of the series.] The only reaction I can have to that is, "What the hell, Anno?" It's such a blatant case of actively working against the audience's efforts to find something to identify with in his characters, and it happens with most of the rest of the cast too.
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Arkthelad



Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:28 pm Reply with quote
Ggultra2764 wrote:
The start of Shinji's descent into angst-ridden madness for Anno's nihilist direction of the series when he was starting to become mentally healthy as earlier episodes of the series progressed and the start of the decline in the show's quality. ?


This keeps going around in circles. Do you simply dislike the fact that it started going in a darker direction after appearing to become more positive? Or, are you claiming that this transition was written badly? Those are two completely different things. Which is your point of view?

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Existentialists treat the belief of "humans can only think subjectively" as an absolute truth, while it is possible for people to think through a decision through reason and knowledge obtained through other means (people, research, etc...) without allowing personal feelings and beliefs to impact them with the proper mindset. ?


Both Existentialism and the point of view you’re advocating are faith positions. Neither can actually be proved. Which one you decide to follow is going to be based on personal sentiment which would then ultimately support the existentialist position.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Objective truth is whatever is agreed to be true beyond individual accounts and is still needed by individuals to come to their own conclusions about how to live their lives or make use of the knowledge they gain from said "truth". Regardless of ideology, religion, philosophy, or other groups of knowledge or belief, such groups all share the common objective in trying to understand life. Regardless of one's own personal beliefs, there is no perfect system of thought or belief as there will always be imperfections to be found in them. ?


I don’t think you understand what existentialists actually believe. They don’t claim that reason/rationalism aren’t useful or important. They just claim that when it comes to decision making and value judgements, emotion is more influential than reason. Just look at science. We can learn how to explore space through the use of reason but the use of that reason is predicated on the desire to explore space, which is emotional.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Are you an existentialist yourself or do you think Anno's preaching is some sort of inspirational message that I find more cynical and mentally unhealthy? ?


I think the existentialist viewpoint is convincing. I don’t actually find Eva inspirational ultimately, in fact I’d say that the final note is more stoic if we’re talking about End of Eva.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Touche on the first link. However, the second one still has merit. ?


Very well, then please explain the difference between “Post-Modern Existentialism” and non-PM Existentialism. I’d really like to understand this because Hope didn’t explain it in her video.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Jesu was criticizing the relevance of existentialism's use in looking into Shinji's condition as introspection (a major element of existentialism) would do more harm than good for the boy without having others to help him due to having limitations on identifying his personal problems on his own. Not learning to rely on others when needed would only make Shinji's hole of angst even deeper, which the direction of Evangelion regrettably goes because of Anno's obsession of digging into the mental dilemmas of the human condition without showing a way out of them.


What do you mean “without having others to help him”? The whole of 25-26 is taking place in instrumentality. He’s connected to at least Misato/Asuka/Ritsuko and Rei. He’s not doing any of this on his own. Ultimately, both you and Hope and are making false critiques of the series based on total misunderstanding of the content and position of the final two episodes.
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nechronius
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Joined: 23 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:44 am Reply with quote
My own dislike of the TV series plus the movies is pretty much summed up by the idea that humanity's hopes are resting seemingly on the shoulders of a couple of angst riddled children who in turn are being (un)supported by horribly flawed adults. Some people really dug it for its supposed psychological insight and symbolism. I found it mostly pretentious psychobabble fanboy pornography.

The series is built on the backs of broken characters so I suppose if you're there to enjoy the train wreck then all is well and good. It just wasn't my style of train wreck and I sure do love my train wrecks.

I'm overdue for a re-watching of the entire franchise though, see if my original disgust filled rating of the show doesn't merit a re-rating. TV, movies, and the recent 1.11-x.xx movies. I'll probably watch the whole thing again once the final (assuming "4.44" is the final) movie is released on disc.
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Ggultra2764
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:34 am Reply with quote
Arkthelad wrote:
This keeps going around in circles. Do you simply dislike the fact that it started going in a darker direction after appearing to become more positive? Or, are you claiming that this transition was written badly? Those are two completely different things. Which is your point of view?


Badly written transition, though I think we're at the point discussion on it will be pointless anyway since you still seem convinced my logic is flawed for who knows whatever reason.

Quote:
Both Existentialism and the point of view you’re advocating are faith positions. Neither can actually be proved.


Let's see: unbiased journalism, encyclopedias, dictionaries, researching from a neutral mindset. Where exactly are those areas faith-based? It seems more like you are convinced that there can only be opposites to life instead of considering multiple perspectives.

Quote:
I don’t think you understand what existentialists actually believe. They don’t claim that reason/rationalism aren’t useful or important. They just claim that when it comes to decision making and value judgements, emotion is more influential than reason. Just look at science. We can learn how to explore space through the use of reason but the use of that reason is predicated on the desire to explore space, which is emotional.


My argument has more to do with the fact you are only seeing things from "black and white" instead of considering other perspectives since groups of belief/ thought have their own areas of thought they like to strictly stick with in many instances.

Quote:
Very well, then please explain the difference between “Post-Modern Existentialism” and non-PM Existentialism. I’d really like to understand this because Hope didn’t explain it in her video.


As I commented before, I'm at novice level at best with philosophy and any history to it. Jesu seems more knowledgeable on the area than I would and I find it hard to even question her in most instances for her reviews anyway since she's well-researched in looking into many aspects of a title from history, plot, behind-the-scenes material, themes discussed, etc... as I've watched most of the titles she has covered and researched into them to know more of their history, themes and availability.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
What do you mean “without having others to help him”? The whole of 25-26 is taking place in instrumentality. He’s connected to at least Misato/Asuka/Ritsuko and Rei. He’s not doing any of this on his own. Ultimately, both you and Hope and are making false critiques of the series based on total misunderstanding of the content and position of the final two episodes.


I can't speak for Jesu since I don't know how she thinks. But from my interpretation of events with the final two episodes (despite how cobbled together they were), Shinji's perspective of Instrumentality has to do with him having an introspection on figuring out what he ultimately desires from life, considering he's the one making the decision on spoiler[humanity's fate] with figments of those he knows appearing to assert his mental state as he struggles through thinking over what he desires. The moments with the girls were only there as padding for the 25th episode since they don't really get their character arcs resolved anyway. With exception to Rei and Shinji (spoiler[the former fusing with Lilith, the latter being chosen to decide humanity's fate]), everyone else on Earth spoiler[should have their minds and souls fused together as a single being], meaning that the introspective moments with Misato and Asuka shouldn't even be there if they are spoiler[either dead or part of the single being.] And how exactly would Asuka and the others be communicating with Shinji if spoiler[their souls are all singularly fused together?]
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Arkthelad



Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:44 pm Reply with quote
Ggultra2764 wrote:
Badly written transition, though I think we're at the point discussion on it will be pointless anyway since you still seem convinced my logic is flawed for who knows whatever reason.


It’s not pointless because this is the only (potentially) legitimate critique that you’re actually presenting. Okay, you claim that the transition in mood was badly written. What specifically about it was badly written? What do you think should have been done differently?

Ggultra2764 wrote:
My argument has more to do with the fact you are only seeing things from "black and white" instead of considering other perspectives since groups of belief/ thought have their own areas of thought they like to strictly stick with in many instances.


I really don’t get what you’re talking about. How can I be advocating an existentialist position and have a “black and white” view? That’s totally contradictory.

Ggultra2764 wrote:
But from my interpretation of events with the final two episodes (despite how cobbled together they were), Shinji's perspective of Instrumentality has to do with him having an introspection on figuring out what he ultimately desires from life, considering he's the one making the decision on spoiler[humanity's fate] with figments of those he knows appearing to assert his mental state as he struggles through thinking over what he desires.


Shinji is most definitely in contact with Rei/Asuka/Misato during instrumentality. How else would he know about Misato spending a week having sex with Kaji in college? This is pretty much fact.
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Ggultra2764
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:29 pm Reply with quote
Arkthelad wrote:
It’s not pointless because this is the only (potentially) legitimate critique that you’re actually presenting. Okay, you claim that the transition in mood was badly written. What specifically about it was badly written? What do you think should have been done differently?


Buildup similar to how it was adapted in Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's manga. The rise and falls of the growth of the characters came about more naturally and the manga's themes weren't being hammered into the heads of the reader like Anno was doing for the TV anime.

Quote:
Shinji is most definitely in contact with Rei/Asuka/Misato during instrumentality. How else would he know about Misato spending a week having sex with Kaji in college? This is pretty much fact.


Ummm, no. Misato's psych session was shown entirely through her perspective and as she delved deeper into her own thoughts, she came upon that which she feared: Shinji exposed to the ugliest parts of her character (i.e.: sex with Kaji). Shinji had no recollection of Misato's sexual flings with Kaji as he interacted with the various figments that represented those he knew from in and out of NERV. Outside of Rei and Shinji, it wouldn't make any sense for Asuka and Misato to even retain their psyches if they are fused together through Instrumentality since they would lose all sense of individuality and thought.
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Arkthelad



Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:51 am Reply with quote
Ggultra2764 wrote:
Buildup similar to how it was adapted in Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's manga. The rise and falls of the growth of the characters came about more naturally and the manga's themes weren't being hammered into the heads of the reader like Anno was doing for the TV anime.


You’re still not being specific. Anyone can say that character development in a story was unnatural . At what point in the series did it become unnatural? What specifically was rushed?

Ggultra2764 wrote:
Ummm, no. Misato's psych session was shown entirely through her perspective and as she delved deeper into her own thoughts, she came upon that which she feared: Shinji exposed to the ugliest parts of her character (i.e.: sex with Kaji).


I can’t remember the series scene clearly, but in EoE the same scene (Shinji seeing Misato sleeping with Kaji) exists and Misato didn’t have any first person psych session in the film. Added to that Shinji is still holding Misato’s cross when he see’s this, so it’s clearly Shinji watching the scene himself. To be honest, I didn’t know people still viewed these scenes that way.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 1768

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:38 pm Reply with quote
Okay, I just finished the first NEW movie, "You Are Not Alone" and....you know what?

I have a new appreciation for this series. It is pretty awesome show. And Shinji?
Well, hearing Shinji in Japanese is a lot more um.....pleasant than hearing him in English. But I used to think Shinji was a pathetic, whiny emo brat when I was younger...and now I don't feel that way.
He is extremely realistic as a character and as a person.

His situation IS terrible. What he has to go through IS difficult and terrifying.
Age 14. You've just barely taken your baby steps out of childhood, you were raised without love from a normal family, and you are suddenly out of the blue, thrust into a world you understand nothing about, in order to pilot a 'monster' against other monsters you know nothing about and the fate of the entire world is now on your shaking, inexperienced shoulders?

What child would actually be okay with this?

Not one that is a human being, I'm positive of that. That is an unbelievable amount of pressure on such a young kid. Of course he reacts the way he does!

Yes, I say this with utmost honesty and seriousness: I sympathize with Shinji Ikari.
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