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The Japanese are too-overworked and need more holidays. Also, what's with the idea of just being a miserable salary-man(or woman) working for a large company? The Japanese need to exert more of their entrepreneur or creative spirit and should strive to be what they want to be, whether its a small business owner, graphic designer, doctor, or artist, they ought to do something outside of that for a change.

I'm pretty sure the Japanese get more vacation days than Americans do; the overwork issue is primarily cultural(as mentioned above, the extreme reluctance to leave before the boss, whereas the vast majority of Americans would rather leave right on time and the amount of overtime the Japanese put in, whereas an American is more likely to be warned against any).

As for exerting their creative spirits, Japan is very much an Eastern culture and therefore very conformist. It takes a lot more than facile entreatment to buck that trend.

Individual Japanese workers may not be creative but some Japanese companies and industries can be. The Wankel rotary engine from Mazda (well, they didn't create it but they did perfect it), the hybrid car and Just In Time manufacturing from Toyota, the superb Japanese cellular network, their gaming industry which has led the way and been rather innovative, their world-leading bullet train technology and infrastructure. The Japanese are not quite as rigid as the stereotype asserts.

stowrag wrote:

I'm genuinely curious: why did they feel the need to specify that 40% of them are women? Why not say that 60% of the NEET population is made up of men?

The Mainichi Shimbun article, which the ANN staffer has mentioned as the source, is about NEETs who are women and an organisation which helps them.
Since the Mainichi Shimbun article in question was used as the source for a thread on 2ch in May and also Hachima Kikō dealt with the article, the ANN staffer may have seen the URL of the article on Hachima Kikō or something.
　

dtm42 wrote:

Individual Japanese workers may not be creative but some Japanese companies and industries can be. The Wankel rotary engine from Mazda (well, they didn't create it but they did perfect it), the hybrid car and Just In Time manufacturing from Toyota, [...]

Exactly, there's more than one way to be creative.

Inventor type: "I made a cool new thing! What should I make next?"

Engineer type: "I took your cool new thing and made it work. Here's fifty thousand of them to sell."

Japan's got the engineering mindset down. They seem relatively short on inventors. (The USA, vice-versa.)

And that cultural mindset seems to affect the arts, as well... I'd have a hard time arguing if someone said Japan has spent a generation "perfecting" moé. Smile

Alexander55 wrote:

The Japanese are too-overworked and need more holidays. Also, what's with the idea of just being a miserable salary-man(or woman) working for a large company? The Japanese need to exert more of their entrepreneur or creative spirit and should strive to be what they want to be, whether its a small business owner, graphic designer, doctor, or artist, they ought to do something outside of that for a change.

It's not so simple.

Good luck getting a loan after failing your start-up!

Polycell wrote:

I'm pretty sure the Japanese get more vacation days than Americans do; the overwork issue is primarily cultural(as mentioned above, the extreme reluctance to leave before the boss, whereas the vast majority of Americans would rather leave right on time and the amount of overtime the Japanese put in, whereas an American is more likely to be warned against any).

Dunno exactly how vacation days compare, but Japanese rarely take 'em anyways, unless they all take 'em together at the same time (ergo Golden Week). Because taking a vacation is seen as increasing the burden to your coworkers, so it's also customary to give them souvenirs as reparation for that inconvenience. Plus taking too many of 'em compared to your coworkers could mean them getting the promotion instead of you.

Also, until recently when they began to enforce the law more tightly, much of Japanese overtime are unpaid, so it wasn't costing the companies extra to pay them, save for building utilities. Meanwhile, American companies have to pay overtime, or get sued and fined, so they're more strict about that.

omoikane wrote:

Alexander55 wrote:

The Japanese are too-overworked and need more holidays. Also, what's with the idea of just being a miserable salary-man(or woman) working for a large company? The Japanese need to exert more of their entrepreneur or creative spirit and should strive to be what they want to be, whether its a small business owner, graphic designer, doctor, or artist, they ought to do something outside of that for a change.

It's not so simple.

Good luck getting a loan after failing your start-up!

Unfortunately "once a loser, always a loser" mentality.

omoikane wrote:

Good luck getting a loan after failing your start-up!

Anyway can build their own business. You, me, anyone in this forum can do so if they tried. All you need is organization, a little time to think for yourself(provided you're not on Facebook/Twitter all day long), and a goal you want to achieve. You have to think about your future, not the "present" and what you "think" you can achieve, programming your mind to mirror that of a visionary is instrumental for success.

If someone like me, who is a former college dropout, and former NEET/Hikkimori can create their own Print shop, I don't see how anyone here can't. Me and my brother(who had straight F's in High school) created our own Print business that specifically focuses on invitations for Wedding, 15 years, Birthday Parties, and Communions.

And we didn't have a single penny when we started our business. We funded it entirely through our Credit card and payed it all back in 8 months. Since then, we have gotten orders of around $20-100 dollars and we've never imagined we be making a lot of money.

Well, maybe not as much as my grandfather(who owns a car business), but certainly, enough to be traveling to Anime cons in the country and buy lots and lots of DVDs and Figmas of our favorite Animated series and characters.

Word of advice: don't give up on yourself. You can make any business you want, you just have to find your way through.

College isn't going to magically bestow opportunities upon you. If you don't know what you're doing there and just think you'll land a good job just by going to College, you're wasting your time.

I'd sure as hell regret wasting my time and money on my local community college. I spent 100's of dollars of my Pell grant and money for Text books, tuition and whatnot and all I got is education that I should have learned in High School. Government, Algebra, Sociology, and English are courses I had to take to "transfer" to a Cal-state university. Seriously? Why the hell do I have to learn all of that? How is it going to make me money?

I don't need a stickin' paper or "degree" to tell me what I can do. I'll learn anything I want on my own if instrumental to our business.

Just look at Stu Levy. He had a bachelors degree from UCLA and studied in Tokyo University and look at what happened to Tokyopop. He bankrupted the whole business with his lousy management skills. And he had a "Bachelors" degree from UCLA. Does that mean anything if you're lousy at managing your own business? Of course not. Being credentialed from a College/university mean nothing. Its what you do that counts not how credentialed you are!

If NEETs had the drive and determination to start their own business they wouldn't be NEETs in the first place. I'm sure a self employed individual is not considered a NEET. How do they count the Yakuza?

Given the general work ethic in Japan, I can see where people would be upset by even the concept of others that refuse to work. Since it is supposed to be limited to ages 15 to 34, I wonder what percentage of that age group it represents. Also is it increasing, stable or decreasing.

Assuming you could motivate a substantial portion to look for jobs, would they find any? Since it is limited to young people most would have no work history and probably no specific skills. It is somewhat pointless to complain that they are not seeking work if there are no jobs to be found. Of course politicians are good a pointless fussing.

The big question is what happens when their parents die or throw them out of the house.

enurtsol wrote:

Dunno exactly how vacation days compare, but Japanese rarely take 'em anyways, unless they all take 'em together at the same time (ergo Golden Week). Because taking a vacation is seen as increasing the burden to your coworkers, so it's also customary to give them souvenirs as reparation for that inconvenience. Plus taking too many of 'em compared to your coworkers could mean them getting the promotion instead of you.

Also, until recently when they began to enforce the law more tightly, much of Japanese overtime are unpaid, so it wasn't costing the companies extra to pay them, save for building utilities. Meanwhile, American companies have to pay overtime, or get sued and fined, so they're more strict about that.

Well, Japan has three big holidays in a year: Golden Week, Summer vacation and end/beginning of the year. At least one week-long each. My last Golden Week lasted for 10 days. Quite a lot.
In Brazil, my native country, we have a lot of small holidays (one or two days) and, if I recall correctly, three long ones: Carnival, mid-year (mostly for students) and end/beginning of the year.

But I would advise not to trust anything you learn on the internet about Japan. I think the act of giving souvenirs to your coworkers is not because of the burden caused, it's just respectful. It's almost the same as in most countries in the world: when people go on a trip, they come back with something for their closest friends and family. Japan simply extends that to coworkers. And only if they are close enough, actually. They can always keep the trip a secret, you know... Razz

And I've never heard about unpaid overtime. It's actually risky for the employer to do that, as he would suffer the consequences in a possible delation by the employee. Of course, it's another story if it's a "mutual" agreement... (and I think you meant this)
But anyway, unpaid overtime is not really a big problem.

Alan45 wrote:

Since it is supposed to be limited to ages 15 to 34, I wonder what percentage of that age group it represents. Also is it increasing, stable or decreasing.

Well, just scanning some tables of data and given how low the birth rate is (which will tend to skew the population even older over time), it looks like that there are about 30 million people in that age group. So 600,000 NEETs represents about 2% of that entire age group, which is pretty staggering when you think about it.

Alexander 55 wrote:

...all I got is education that I should have learned in High School. Government, Algebra, Sociology, and English are courses I had to take to "transfer" to a Cal-state university. Seriously? Why the hell do I have to learn all of that? How is it going to make me money?

The stock answer is that to do any sort of hard science, elementary Mathematics is a must just to get started, and for the non-scientists some level of expressive ability is essential. The truth is that so many students emerge from high school with little to no skills in these areas, that remediation in college is rapidly becoming the norm. That aside, you make some good points, and I wonder if we're not about to see a rise in NEETs here in the US. After all, unemployment among college graduates is higher than anyone wants to admit, particularly if you factor in underemployment of college graduates. There's a lot of college grads out there serving you coffee, and those are likely some of the better ones at that. You have to wonder how we're churning out record numbers of college grads while underemployment is rampant and yet there's a shortage of graduates in the hard sciences and engineering. It sounds like a formula for generating NEETs.

Quote:

You have to wonder how we're churning out record numbers of college grads while underemployment is rampant and yet there's a shortage of graduates in the hard sciences and engineering.

Because American culture literally prides stupidity.

Just look at our entertainment. 95% of it worthless, meaning-bankrupt pablum that people eat up anyway.

I don't think that has anything to do with people not entering the sciences or engineering, or at least not finishing them. I'm sure tons begin those undergrad courses and quickly drop once they get into some of the harder material, and switch to something else that they either might enjoy or think may bring them a high paying job. You wind up with too many people that are overqualified for too few jobs, and the opposite on the other spectrum. I don't see how that prides stupidity, it just means how people enter college and what their goals are need to be re-evaluated. "murricans is stoopid" People are stupid everywhere. Garbage entertainment is in every society. You're not going to find an ivory tower intellectual society on this planet.

I can sort of understand where all these NEETs in Japan are coming from, but man, the NEET threads on places like 4chan are just freaking depressing. I could not live like that out of fear of going batshit insane.

vallum wrote:

enurtsol wrote:

Dunno exactly how vacation days compare, but Japanese rarely take 'em anyways, unless they all take 'em together at the same time (ergo Golden Week). Because taking a vacation is seen as increasing the burden to your coworkers, so it's also customary to give them souvenirs as reparation for that inconvenience. Plus taking too many of 'em compared to your coworkers could mean them getting the promotion instead of you.

Also, until recently when they began to enforce the law more tightly, much of Japanese overtime are unpaid, so it wasn't costing the companies extra to pay them, save for building utilities. Meanwhile, American companies have to pay overtime, or get sued and fined, so they're more strict about that.

But I would advise not to trust anything you learn on the internet about Japan. I think the act of giving souvenirs to your coworkers is not because of the burden caused, it's just respectful. It's almost the same as in most countries in the world: when people go on a trip, they come back with something for their closest friends and family. Japan simply extends that to coworkers. And only if they are close enough, actually. They can always keep the trip a secret, you know... Razz

We actually get many of our stories from people we know working in Japan. And yes, many gift-giving etiquette in Japan are "obligatory," and it's obligatory here because it's like saying sorry for the inconvenience to your coworkers, even those ya don't like, ya have to give a gift (nothing expensive required though).

And yeah, technically ya could keep the trip a secret, but if you actually had the gall to ask for a personal vacation, it looks better to the boss that you're doing it to go somewhere, and not just relaxing in the house when you could've been working at the office. Some workers actually pretend that they're going somewhere and buy the appropriate souvenir gifts, just as an excuse for a relaxing stay-cation. Laughing

vallum wrote:

And I've never heard about unpaid overtime. It's actually risky for the employer to do that, as he would suffer the consequences in a possible delation by the employee. Of course, it's another story if it's a "mutual" agreement... (and I think you meant this)
But anyway, unpaid overtime is not really a big problem.

Ah, if by "mutual," ya mean

Worker: I won't put the overtime hours in the log and won't rock the company boat.
Boss: I'll look the other way pretending not to know, and I won't fire you or (if I can't fire you) make your working life hell.

In the company's defense, some workers intentionally don't do much work and put it off till late in the day, so it seems like they're busy doing work just when the about-to-go-home boss walking by sees them plus doing overtime (which sometimes they're not being paid for anyways, so it makes up for not doing work during the day). So it's kind of a game.

Anyways, here's an explanation for unpaid overtime, excerpts courtesy of Japan Intercultural Consulting:

OVER WORKED AND UNDERPAID JAPANESE EMPLOYEES FEEL THE BURDEN OF SABISU ZANGYO
Sep 04, 2012

On my most recent visit to Japan, all I heard from my Japanese friends were tales of long hours. Someone quit, so the work of three is now being covered by two, with no plans for a replacement. An officemate so overwhelmed by long hours that she had to get medication for depression. People in the prime of life who committed suicide, who coincidentally had been “working very long hours recently.” To be honest, after a while, it just seemed like one more sad tale of overwork after another. And from what I hear, this riding employees hard seems to be a general trend, not just among the people I happen I know. And in many cases all this overtime is not even compensated – it’s what is euphemistically referred to as sabisu zangyo.

Sabisu zangyo is one of those uniquely Japanese terms that does not have a direct equivalent in English, even though it uses the English word “service” combined with the Japanese word for overtime. First of all, even though sabisu in Japanese connotes something that is given as a “freebie” or “extra”, the word “service” does not have that connotation in English. So “service overtime” would not make sense to a native English speaker. Second, there is no tradition or practice of sabisu zangyo in the United States, so no analogous term has developed here.

Perhaps the best way to describe sabisu zangyo is to say that it’s overtime hours worked by employees which are not reported and thus are not compensated. In other words, overtime that is given as a gift from the employ the company. Although the word “gift” is a bit of a stretch, as in most cases the employees are being either subtly or unsubtly discouraged from claiming payment for the overtime hours. Of course this is illegal, but there appears to be little enforcement and the practice of demanding employees to work overtime and not compensating them for it is quite common – so common that a word was coined for it.

In the United States, if an employee is eligible for overtime payment, it also is illegal to not pay them for overtime worked. However, enforcement appears to be more rigorous. Companies that are discovered to have not paid employees for overtime are subject to fines, as well as payment for the past overtime, and the government may come and conduct an audit if it is alerted to potential problems. Thus, companies in the U.S. tend to be rather careful about documenting and managing overtime work.

In Japan, eligibility for overtime is determined by company rank, and generally all employees under the level of kacho (first level supervisor) are eligible. This means that all white collar employees begin their careers receiving overtime, and in many cases tend to depend on overtime as an important component of their income. This is one of the underpinnings of the high overtime culture in Japan, as it helps get employees in the habit of working long hours and subtly discourages them from developing good time management habits. However, the situation becomes even worse when employees are expected to do sabisu zangyo that is not compensated.

In Japan sabisu zangyo appears to be an extremely common practice. Particularly in the difficult economic environment of recent years, many Japanese companies have restricted the amount of overtime that each employee is allowed to claim, for example to 20 hours per week. Yet with lots of work to do, which is exacerbated by curbs on hiring, employees feel a lot of both internal and external pressure to spend more time at work, even if it is not compensated. And employees who are overworked often do not feel that they have options in terms of other places to work – they feel they just have to grin and bear it at their current company, since the rigid Japanese labor market offers few alternatives.

In addition to the economic benefit that Japanese companies derive from getting extra work from their employees for free, there is also a kind of political benefit as well from a national standpoint. For many years, Japanese stood out as working longer hours than people from many countries. For example, in 1980 official figures showed the average Japanese employee working 2121 hours for year. These numbers became the target of criticism when Japanese companies were trouncing others in international markets. The Japanese government’s promotion of jitan, shortened working hours, created additional pressure on Japanese companies not to work their employees so hard. And indeed, in recent years the official figures on average hours worked per year in Japan have fallen dramatically from their level in the 1980s. However, it seems that due to the prevalent practice of sabisu zangyo, these figures may be more tatemae (window-dressing) than a reflection of the actual situation.

A few years ago, big companies like Toyota and McDonald's got hit for this:

http://business.highbeam.com/5477/article-1G1-216271072/overtime-activists-take-corporate-titans-toyota-mcdonald
http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/Japan/Fackler-Martin/Japanese-salarymen-fight-back
http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2008-06-16/rare-japanese-labor-win-prompts-new-fearsbusinessweek-business-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice

Chagen46 wrote:

Just look at our entertainment. 95% of it worthless, meaning-bankrupt pablum that people eat up anyway.

Oh c'mon, any entertainment is like that. People enjoy what they enjoy. There's no my-entertainment-is-worthier-than-thou. Very Happy

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