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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:45 pm Reply with quote
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Maybe because CoD is a good game. I know it's hard to believe. Either way I know this was going to be brought up and it really makes no sense.

It has more to do with the concept of overly made FPS than CoD itself, Portal is one of the few games that takes the FPS gameplay and succeeds in re-inventing the genre by tying it with a puzzle mechanic that might not work in most "your a soldier, go shoot stuff" context in about 90% of FPS titles.

A person might say Call of Duty, but more than likely one is probably reffering to the overly flushed market of stale FPS that is just as annoying as someone could findfrom overly uninspired JRPG titles.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:49 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
EXCEPT I NEVER SAID THAT

Holy christ, stop putting words in my mouth.


Please explain what you want in specific terms and how it is not "Skyrim but from Japan"
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:40 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Chagen46 wrote:
EXCEPT I NEVER SAID THAT

Holy christ, stop putting words in my mouth.


Please explain what you want in specific terms and how it is not "Skyrim but from Japan"


A JRPG that possesses a large, wide-open world a la Skyrim, but doesn't play the same as it (as in, instead of having a created character and being mostly open, it uses the JRPG standby of having a dedicated main character, a plot that the player doesn't influence much, etc...)

...Actually, a better way to put it would be a GTA-esque JRPG, since GTA still has a dedicated and non-created main character and a plot that can't be influenced by the player very much.

But, open-world games apparently aren't simply as popular in Japan as in America, though, so this is all conjecture.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:46 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:

But, open-world games apparently aren't simply as popular in Japan as in America, though, so this is all conjecture.


Part of the problem is that it would be much more costly and time consuming to make. Only the top selling RPGs get budgets comparable to even mid-level Western games. This is the main reason world maps have largely disappeared, I think.

Anyway, it's more costly to make and adds in a lot of complications to designing it when you have a more complicated and pre-determined story. I'd love to see a JRPG take on it, but there's a reason its not likely to happen (though I think Xenoblade kind of did it?).

I think the Atelier games could make a go at it if they had the budget though, as it would fit the style of gameplay. They wouldn't even have to go full, continuous open-world, they could just use something similar to their current system and have everything unlock purely by reaching the exit of the connecting area. I'd prefer to see them make larger, more interesting areas first though (Totori and Meruru were okay in this regard, but Ayesha took a step back rather than a step forward).
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:54 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I'm talking about one wide-open sandbox a la--and I hate to bring these two games up--Skyrim and Fallout 3. Maybe not quite the same size, but I'd like to see a modern JRPG try it while still being...well, Japanese.


But in order to achieve that Skyrim and Fallout 3 had to basically destroy any sense of scale or escalation. Enemies are always on your level and level up with you to a certain point in order to do that. Not to mention how it affects the loot and item system by scaling it your level as well. Basically, you'd have to overhaul the entire game engine to achieve something like that. That wouldn't work in a story-focused game like JRPGs. You're on a stricter path because the story demands it.

Rahxephon91 wrote:
Um no. You are projecting. Most if not all those complaints are something jrpg fans themselves throw at the genre. Half these complaints are what was thrown at say Final Fantasy XIII. And a lot of these ideas actually appeared in the great Xenoblade, the game that is pretty much considered the best jrpg of this gen.


First off, let's stop talking as if one person can decide what the "JRPG fans" all think.

Second off, since when the heck is Xenoblade considered the best JRPG of this generation? Seeing it get average sales and reviews don't give that indication anywhere.

Quote:
And besides, why should'nt Jrpgs infuse ideas from wrpg? No, I won't say jrpgs are archaic at all, but I see nothing with being influenced by western developers.


Because the notion that "Tales of Vesperia sucks because it doesn't have co-op play like Diablo and Borderlands" is one of the stupidest complaints you can level at a JRPG. They're entirely different games with entirely different purposes.

Quote:
Maybe because CoD is a good game. I know it's hard to believe. Either way I know this was going to be brought up and it really makes no sense.


The issue isn't "CoD is a good/bad game", it's the mindset that reviews will roll their eyes and groan "Oh look, another JRPG where you're on a quest to save the world with a bunch of anime-esque archetypes." yet find no irony in then slapping the latest modern military shooter or elf/dwarf/hobbit RPG with a high score without even mentioning that maybe it's also an overdone concept as well. Of course, we all know why, but let's not get into that.
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Rahxephon91



Joined: 08 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:18 am Reply with quote
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First off, let's stop talking as if one person can decide what the "JRPG fans" all think.
Sure, but I mean all one has to do is look at all the critisim thrown at Final Fantasy XIII or countless jrpg threads and see that ign's points aren't solely IGNs.

Quote:
Second off, since when the heck is Xenoblade considered the best JRPG of this generation? Seeing it get average sales and reviews don't give that indication anywhere.
Eh....Have you been living under a rock? Go to a major gaming forum, look up a recent top jrpg thread this gen and Xenoblade is going to mentioned a lot. Look at all the uproar about getting it released here. Yes it sold meh, but it sold to the small jrpg audience which is what were are mostly talking about here.

Plus you say it's reviews don't give it that impression? Huh, it has the highest(or one at like 92%) metacritic scores of jrpgs this gen. Pretty much every major review for the game is glowing. Really? You're going to tell me your a jrpg gamer and you haven't encountered the overwhelming praise for the game? I have to say I call bull. I mean you don't have to share it, but I mean obviously there is something to it.

Quote:
Because the notion that "Tales of Vesperia sucks because it doesn't have co-op play like Diablo and Borderlands" is one of the stupidest complaints you can level at a JRPG. They're entirely different games with entirely different purposes.
But it's not saying that at all. It's saying it would be a cool thing to add, which I'm not sure why it wouldn't? Tales games already have Co-op and it's pretty fun if barebones. Why not expand on it? Hell I can't wait to play Xillia Co-op thanks to it's partner mechanics. Really, find me a negative review for the game that really knocked it for that. I mean IGN's positive review for the game sure doesn't seem to knock it.

Quote:
The issue isn't "CoD is a good/bad game", it's the mindset that reviews will roll their eyes and groan "Oh look, another JRPG where you're on a quest to save the world with a bunch of anime-esque archetypes." yet find no irony in then slapping the latest modern military shooter or elf/dwarf/hobbit RPG with a high score without even mentioning that maybe it's also an overdone concept as well. Of course, we all know why, but let's not get into that.
But you yourself have already claimed that different genre's should have different standards. And well FPS's are a way different beast then jrpgs. And really reviews for CoD esque games do attack what your saying they don't. It's really just Battlefield and CoD that avoid middling reviews. Meanwhile your Homefronts, your Medal of Honors, and other B level military games do get pretty meh reviews exactly for what you are saying they don't.

And you make it sound like any wrpg get's an automatic good review which is most certainly not true. Dragon Age 2 got trashed in the end and many Eruo Jank rpgs do get accused of having generic fantasy settings. Really, I'm sorry jrpgs are not some victim here.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:53 pm Reply with quote
Rahxephon91 wrote:
And a lot of these ideas actually appeared in the great Xenoblade, the game that is pretty much considered the best jrpg of this gen.


By who? IGN? Japanese reviews of it said it was a good game, but it still reviewed lower in general than Atelier and Tales games over there. Westerners just like it better since it has a lot of stuff that mimics what they like in WRPGs.

With that said, I didn't really like Xenoblade much since it went too far away from what I like about JRPGs... I prefer an anime looking game with a tight narrative and linearity. Instead, it gave a big open world with focus on tons of fetch quests and no real reason to explore, and the art style was pretty bad and the story didn't interest me much. It wasn't BAD, but I did drop it halfway through since it was just dragging on and on.
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Rahxephon91



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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:06 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
Rahxephon91 wrote:
And a lot of these ideas actually appeared in the great Xenoblade, the game that is pretty much considered the best jrpg of this gen.


By who? IGN? Japanese reviews of it said it was a good game, but it still reviewed lower in general than Atelier and Tales games over there. Westerners just like it better since it has a lot of stuff that mimics what they like in WRPGs.
By who? Western Jrpg fans, who we are obviously talking about.

And no westerner reviews like it because it's a great game. And mimics stuff from WRPGs? I did'nt know FFXII was a western game. Really, people are disputing Xenoblade here? What kind of crazy place is this.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:11 pm Reply with quote
Rahxephon91 wrote:
RyanSaotome wrote:
Rahxephon91 wrote:
And a lot of these ideas actually appeared in the great Xenoblade, the game that is pretty much considered the best jrpg of this gen.


By who? IGN? Japanese reviews of it said it was a good game, but it still reviewed lower in general than Atelier and Tales games over there. Westerners just like it better since it has a lot of stuff that mimics what they like in WRPGs.
By who? Western Jrpg fans, who we are obviously talking about.

And no westerner reviews like it because it's a great game. And mimics stuff from WRPGs? I did'nt know FFXII was a western game. Really, people are disputing Xenoblade here? What kind of crazy place is this.


FFXII I think also got really inflated reviews from Western critics since it had those same kind of WRPG features.

Fortunately Square got rid of that open world and MMO stuff in FFXIII, though. Too much backlash in Japan.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:19 pm Reply with quote
FFXIII wasn't a game, it was a very pretty movie where you sometimes happened to press buttons.
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Rahxephon91



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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:20 pm Reply with quote
I'm speechless. I guess I just actually hate Japan because everything you're saying sounds insane.


and yeah XIII, yep that went over well, even in Japan!
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RyanSaotome



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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:22 pm Reply with quote
I've never really gotten the hate for FF13. If it came out back in the late 90s when everyone were still teens, I'm sure it would have gotten the same kind of reception the PS1 FFs did. Its just that its still got that shonen story but Westerners want Final Fantasy to age with them.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:44 pm Reply with quote
Rahxephon91 wrote:
Sure, but I mean all one has to do is look at all the critisim thrown at Final Fantasy XIII or countless jrpg threads and see that ign's points aren't solely IGNs.


Internet complaints in general are terrible to go by. Despite "all the hate" FFXIII still sold more than alot of AAA games that get nothing but praise and tongue-baths. Most gamers don't spend their time arguing on the internet.

Quote:
Eh....Have you been living under a rock? Go to a major gaming forum, look up a recent top jrpg thread this gen and Xenoblade is going to mentioned a lot. Look at all the uproar about getting it released here. Yes it sold meh, but it sold to the small jrpg audience which is what were are mostly talking about here.


Maybe in the west, I guess, but in Japan it got average reviews and average sales. Tales of Xillia and Graces-F sold 3 times more than it did. More traditional RPGs like Tales are the clear stronger brand in this case, and I definitely agree and prefer Tales games over it.

Quote:
Plus you say it's reviews don't give it that impression? Huh, it has the highest(or one at like 92%) metacritic scores of jrpgs this gen. Pretty much every major review for the game is glowing. Really? You're going to tell me your a jrpg gamer and you haven't encountered the overwhelming praise for the game? I have to say I call bull. I mean you don't have to share it, but I mean obviously there is something to it.


I don't care what western reviewers or gamers say about Japanse games, let alone metacritic which is a horribly corrupt and bias system. These are the same people who made the list I linked to.

Quote:
But it's not saying that at all. It's saying it would be a cool thing to add, which I'm not sure why it wouldn't?


Same reason why horror games suck when you have co-op like Dead Space. Hard to appreciate the story and atmosphere when you have some dudebro on the other end of your mic making jokes and insults or teabagging corpses. More than likely if they were co-op you'd get a partner whining to skip the story bits and not explore towns and talk to people and just get into fights so you can play already. I play Tales as a single player experfience and having 3 other people on some party mic system would ruin that. The story in Diablo and Borderlands is a non-factor so co-op work in those games.

Quote:
And you make it sound like any wrpg get's an automatic good review which is most certainly not true. Dragon Age 2 got trashed in the end and many Eruo Jank rpgs do get accused of having generic fantasy settings.


Dragon Age 2 got 8.5s at IGN and other sites. 8.5 seems pretty good to me. Better than Tales of Graces 7.0, at least.

RyanSaotome wrote:
I've never really gotten the hate for FF13. If it came out back in the late 90s when everyone were still teens, I'm sure it would have gotten the same kind of reception the PS1 FFs did. Its just that its still got that shonen story but Westerners want Final Fantasy to age with them.


More than likely. J-RPGs are more anime/shounen while W-RPGs are more traditional fantasy. If they're the kind of people who like watching more traditional setting stuff like The Hobbit and Game of Thrones they'll probably appreciate WRPGs more compared to the people who like watching One Piece or Hunter x Hunter.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:55 pm Reply with quote
If you want to see the bias between Western and Japanese games, look no further than this:

http://kaonazhie.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/dragons-dogma-vs-skyrim/

IGN is basically harping on Dragon's Dogma for having the same issues Skyrim has, but they overlook the issues in Skyrim.
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Sleverin



Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:18 pm Reply with quote
This is a snarky response but...it's nice to know that the hate for each other's market is mutual, am I right guys? Because the Japanese never dislike Western stuff, no sir.

End snarky remark. I do agree in the end, however. I feel that both sides need to suck it up and stop trying to have this sill sort of pissing match about W and J RPGS being the bomb as lon gas they come from their own cultures. I'm not talking about fellow forum posters, by the way, the reviews and perceptions from each side. Kinda hard to get over that kinda thinking though.
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