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tuxedocat
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Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:51 am Reply with quote
I've read through 5 pages now, and absolutely NO mention of Aoi Hana. Not even once.

IMO, that is a "true" yuri title (in the traditional. old-school sense), but for some reason no one pays any attention to it. It sold poorly in Japan, unfortunately, which may be the #1 reason we see so little yuri over here. Unless the supposed "yuri" is hentai for het men, it doesn't sell. Maybe some of the male yuri fans here could tell me why Aoi Hana didn't measure up for them. I am very curious about this, as I thought the show was excellent.

Viki has the old Dear, Brother shojo anime streaming, which has strong yuri themes.

I watched and recommend both, and bought Aoi Hana. --and yeah, I am a het female. I avoid "yuri" hentai and the stuff with "yuri-girls-gone-wild" cinematography. IMO, that is just porn/ecchi stuff aimed at guys, and not true yuri (as I understand the original concept of what yuri was designed to be).

I do have to mention that both of the titles I have mentioned above are structured like shojo anime. Very little yuri anime made today is like that. I don't think it sells anymore. Crying or Very sad

As far as yaoi is concerned, there is practically NO yaoi porn anime. The closest thing I can think of is Ai no Kusabi, which (sort-of) had actual sex scenes. I've only seen the 1999 version, BTW. Most yaoi shows the "leading up to" and "after the deed", but never the deed itself. So yeah, pretty tame stuff.

There is plenty of explicit yaoi manga, but no anime equivalent AFAIK.
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Sylontack



Joined: 09 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:04 am Reply with quote
Honestly I think Yuri gets MORE attention than Yaoi.
Most yaoi/shounen-ai titles that someone might mention to me, just make go "wha? Never heard of it". Whereas some very well known titles are yuri/shoujo-ai: Revolutionary Girl Utena, Maria Watches Over Us, Strawberry Panic, Kannazuki no Miko- and while I could argue how it is not, Madoka Magica has gotten a large pro-femshipping fanbase.

Whereas if I went up to people and asked if they knew, say Loveless or No. 6 most people would cock their heads at me. Granted I'd do the same, if those weren't pretty much the entire list of shounen-ai that has reached Australia (I am not a fan of the genre, but I usually look into any titles that come out in my country).

I'd also say shoujo-ai is far more popular, as there is this whole double standard of "Guys making out? Ew. Girls making out? Hot!" going around, which I won't lie- I am not completely free of that (I mean I don't scream and bleach my eyes when guys kiss, but I'd be happier watching girls, but that's kinda how sexuality works after all). Although in some cases it's more of a sub-theme, like in spoiler[Canaan].

However I would agree that (In Australia at least) shounen-ai gets more attention than shoujo-ai, over here we have No.6 and Loveless and maybe one or two more. Whereas I have on occasion had a gay friend ask me if I could recommend any shoujo-ai/yuri titles on the shelves she could buy. I am limited to pointing out shows that western cultures would see as subtext. We don't even have Utena (aside from the film which 1 in every 50 stores carry I swear, it's too old a release).

I'd very much like to see more shoujo-ai hit Australia's shelves, but I still don't think it's been shifted for shounen-ai.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:12 am Reply with quote
Aoi Hana was great, though sadly the anime didn't really have much of a chance to really get anywhere. The manga is ending in two more chapters so I plan to read the entire thing then.

Also airing around the same time, and suffering a similar problem, was Sasameki Koto, which I greatly enjoyed but again, barely even got started. It covered the first 12 chapters of a manga that eventually ended up being 53 chapters long.

I really, really dislike Onii-sama e, however. Its filled with the sort of bad-end being lesbian is suffering class-S stuff that a lot of more modern yuri fans really, really dislike. Its interesting as a bit of a historical curiosity, but by god I want to see girls ACTUALLY GETTING TOGETHER AND HAVING A RELATIONSHIP. Even if the path there is filled with drama and angst (see: Sasameki Koto), I don't want the ultimate message of a show be "Oh well you should just outgrow being a lesbian or you'll just end up miserable and/or dead"

As for them being structured like "Shoujo" (not Shojo. A 'shoujo' is a young girl, a 'shojo' is a virgin girl. That extended vowel is important, dammit), well...that makes sense. Onii-sama e IS shoujo and Aoi Hana is Josei. On the other hand Sasameki Koto is Seinen, having run in Monthly Comic Alive (which also runs the manga versions of NakaImo and HenNeko, interestingly). Girlfriends, which completes the trinity of recent longish yuri manga was also Seinen, running in Comic High, which bills itself as "Girlish Comics for Boys and Girls" (the other most well known Comic High manga is Kodomo no Jikan).

The point is, very little actual yuri anime is made. There are plenty of shows that lay on the subtext so thick that denying it requires pretty impressive mental gymnastics (Madoka, Nanoha, Symphogear) and there has been an increase in non-joke lesbian side characters and couples. Margot and Malga from Horizon on the Middle of Nowhere are perhaps the most notable. Their relationship is taken just as seriously as any of the heterosexual couples, and in fact some of the budding couples have been known to come to them for advice, since they are more experienced in various things.

Edit: Also can we please try to avoid using the term "Shoujo-ai"? Use either "Yuri" or "Girls Love".
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musouka



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:35 am Reply with quote
Oniisama e is great.

Fencedude5609 wrote:
there has been an increase in non-joke lesbian side characters and couples. Margot and Malga from Horizon on the Middle of Nowhere are perhaps the most notable. Their relationship is taken just as seriously as any of the heterosexual couples, and in fact some of the budding couples have been known to come to them for advice, since they are more experienced in various things.


And I think the point that a lot of people have been trying (key word being "trying") to make in this thread is exactly how many m/m couples in anime can you say that about?
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tuxedocat
He started itHe started it


Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:38 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
I really, really dislike Onii-sama e, however. Its filled with the sort of bad-end being lesbian is suffering class-S stuff that a lot of more modern yuri fans really, really dislike. Its interesting as a bit of a historical curiosity, but by god I want to see girls ACTUALLY GETTING TOGETHER AND HAVING A RELATIONSHIP. Even if the path there is filled with drama and angst (see: Sasameki Koto), I don't want the ultimate message of a show be "Oh well you should just outgrow being a lesbian or you'll just end up miserable and/or dead"


Yeah, I get where you are coming from about that ending. What a cop out. Unfortunately, that scenario happened frequently in a lot of early yuri-shojo. My understanding is that having a girl/girl romance while young and in school was okay, since the girls in question would stay "pure" and then "grow out of it" when it was time to become a housewife. Undoubtably repulsive by today's standards, which may be one of the reasons women pay less attention to yuri now.

Since most of the "yuri" we see in anime currently is in shows that are made for heterosexual males, it is too easy for women viewers to overlook titles like Aoi Hana and Sasameki Koto.

BTW, thanks for reminding me of Sasameki Koto. That was a pretty good show. Again, curiously not mentioned until now. I wish there were more titles like that, but it is becoming obvious to me that the concept of what "yuri" is has changed with today's viewers. Crying or Very sad
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:40 am Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:


BTW, thanks for reminding me of Sasameki Koto. That was a pretty good show. Again, curiously not mentioned until now. I wish there were more titles like that, but it is becoming obvious to me that the concept of what "yuri" is has changed with today's viewers. Crying or Very sad


????

I don't follow?
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tuxedocat
He started itHe started it


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:52 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:

????

I don't follow?


....that (today) it is produced and perceived as het-directed fanservice/porn.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 5:01 am Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:

????

I don't follow?


....that (today) it is produced and perceived as het-directed fanservice/porn.


I don't think thats really true.

In fact, I don't see how you got that from my post at all?
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:01 am Reply with quote
musouka wrote:


And I think the point that a lot of people have been trying (key word being "trying") to make in this thread is exactly how many m/m couples in anime can you say that about?


Such cases are exceedingly rare. There are two notable pairs (the other being in Mouretsu Pirates) and no others since. It's true that there aren't even that many m/m couples in that time period, I agree, and I'd like more of those too.

However, when people are talking about the allegedly large amount of yuri permeating anime lately, I'm quite certain that's not what most of them are talking about.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:09 am Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:


BTW, thanks for reminding me of Sasameki Koto. That was a pretty good show. Again, curiously not mentioned until now. I wish there were more titles like that, but it is becoming obvious to me that the concept of what "yuri" is has changed with today's viewers. Crying or Very sad


This and Aoi Hana are the kind of yuri anime I want but almost never get. And that's why they haven't been mentioned, basically. They're from 2009, with nothing like them since. When people complain about there being soooooo much yuri in anime, they clearly aren't talking about those.

But to relate those to the original Answerman question, they both sold absolutely horribly.I
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4260

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:48 am Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:

????

I don't follow?


....that (today) it is produced and perceived as het-directed fanservice/porn.


Because it is?

Can you guys stop propping up Yuri as this wonderous genre that's filled with amazing stories?

God this is why I hate yuri fans. You already are priveleged enough compared to us yaoi fans, do you really need more?
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
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Location: in a van! down by the river!

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:03 am Reply with quote
Actually, tuxedocat, there is quite a bit of explicit yaoi anime out there, just most of it is never licensed over here. And what there is here can be hard to find. Try looking on Youtube; you'll find quite a lot of it there.

@Fencedude5609 I was referring to original material, usually in the form of OEL or world manga, not fan fiction.
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tuxedocat
He started itHe started it


Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:51 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
tuxedocat wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:

????

I don't follow?


....that (today) it is produced and perceived as het-directed fanservice/porn.


Because it is?


Uh. yeah. That was what I was saying. There has been an obvious demographic shift. Stop being so hostile.

rinmackie wrote:
Actually, tuxedocat, there is quite a bit of explicit yaoi anime out there, just most of it is never licensed over here. And what there is here can be hard to find. Try looking on Youtube; you'll find quite a lot of it there.


Really? --- maybe we have different ideas about "explicit". I'm talking about the same level as the Viewfinder or Crimson Spell manga. I have never seen yaoi anime adaptations that explicit.
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musouka



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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:55 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:

Such cases are exceedingly rare. There are two notable pairs (the other being in Mouretsu Pirates) and no others since. It's true that there aren't even that many m/m couples in that time period, I agree, and I'd like more of those too.


Really? Yuri couples given serious emotional weight by the narrative are exceedingly rare? Yes, perhaps when compared to mainstream heterosexual couples. But the fact remains that "yuri" is much, much more likely to be taken seriously as a dramatic device, and BL is not.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5086

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:11 pm Reply with quote
musouka wrote:
HitokiriShadow wrote:

Such cases are exceedingly rare. There are two notable pairs (the other being in Mouretsu Pirates) and no others since. It's true that there aren't even that many m/m couples in that time period, I agree, and I'd like more of those too.


Really? Yuri couples given serious emotional weight by the narrative are exceedingly rare? Yes, perhaps when compared to mainstream heterosexual couples. But the fact remains that "yuri" is much, much more likely to be taken seriously as a dramatic device, and BL is not.


This is a relatively recent development, and we still get plenty of "comedy lesbians" (Kuuko, Kuroko).

I think Prunus Girl had good commentary on this, and I would kill for a Prunus Girl anime, even though I know it will never happen.
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