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PR: MangaGamer Announces Addition of If My Heart Had Wings from MoeNovel


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Bablioteca



Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 51
Location: REPUBLIC OF TEXAS
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:55 am Reply with quote
'please license erotic games but take the erotic part out.'

i'm actually perfectly okay with this, i can understand people getting miffed but i dont think i'd ever play a visual novel for pornographic content, it seems like a pretty story, if i have the money maybe i'll check it out.

though based on the original comment maybe they went overboard.

i mean, what's wrong with kissing?
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3747
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:08 am Reply with quote
Bablioteca wrote:
'please license erotic games but take the erotic part out.'

i'm actually perfectly okay with this, i can understand people getting miffed but i don't think i'd ever play a visual novel for pornographic content, it seems like a pretty story, if i have the money maybe i'll check it out.

though based on the original comment maybe they went overboard.

i mean, what's wrong with kissing?


don't you know kissing and holding hands make babies/sarcasm lol. That's' what what I don't understand either unless there are some lolisque looking characters in this title.
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 707
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:55 am Reply with quote
It's bowlderization, that's what it is.

Melicans wrote:
MangaGamer would probably do better to release an uncensored version on their 18+ site, and the censored version on their all-ages site. It's the same game, so that surely shouldn't be to much trouble? They get the money either way.


MangaGamer isn't translating/releasing the game, they're only selling the finished product in their store (so are JList and Play Asia.) The company releasing the game is called MoeNovel. Blame them, not MangaGamer.


Last edited by Ojamajo LimePie on Tue May 14, 2013 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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relentlessflame



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:01 am Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
Bablioteca wrote:
though based on the original comment maybe they went overboard.

i mean, what's wrong with kissing?


don't you know kissing and holding hands make babies/sarcasm lol. That's' what what I don't understand either unless there are some lolisque looking characters in this title.

I suppose some characters are somewhat "loli-esque" (by the vaguest of definitions), but within one year of the protagonist so there's no huge visible difference in age. (You can see the characters on the official site; the twins Asa and Yoru are, I guess, a bit petite.)

All in all, I suspect the edits are simply what they believe is required to meet the requirements of a ESRB-T/PEGI-12 rating (or they're overshooting a bit to make sure their rating doesn't get pushed higher). If you look at the official home page, you can see that the bottom image actually shows a kiss scene... but of course you don't really see anything, so I suppose it's probably passable by that standard.


As someone who played the original game, I can say that the game's central element -- the soaring club -- is pretty well-researched and plays a prominent part in the plot of most of the main routes. So it does have something to offer for people who would be interested for something more than just the romance, though that is a main focus as well. It also has fairly good production values, with good use of CG/animation to accentuate certain key scenes, and pretty memorable music. I can see why they might think of this game as a candidate for this sort of localization, because it probably can stand alone as a sort of general interest title (if you can convince people to pay attention...), and is generally seen as one of the best eroge of 2012.

But, removing all the "sexual humour" (depending on just how broadly they define it) may also remove part of the humour in general in certain parts of the game, unless they also take liberties in rewriting it. That isn't to say that sexual humour plays a huge part in the game... but again, in the broadest of senses, it's certainly there. (Then again, if they're keeping in bath scenes -- albeit with towels -- the definition may not be too broad?) There is also some character development that occurs in the sex scenes themselves... but for the most part, I think the integrity of the overall story will not be irreparably damaged by that removal.


I guess the main question I would have is: who are they going to try to market this to, and how will they reach them? If they're trying to reach a market of anime viewers, I hardly think a little bit of "fanservice" (and on-the-lips kissing) would have hurt (and they could have gone for an M/PEGI-16 rating). But re-positioning the content to this degree suggests that they have some sort of plan for how they're going to sell it. I'd love to see them succeed (and I think the game itself is certainly worth consideration), but the anime/eroge fan community's predisposition against "censorship" of any kind makes me question if that bad stigma will haunt it to market. (You already have the people chanting "buying it = supporting censorship", which is a shame for the game itself.) If this doesn't work out, it only makes it less likely that good story-centric games will be localized going forward (which is sort of the same boat we were already in).
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 707
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:13 am Reply with quote
Now that they've lost the VN community with censorship, who does MoeNovel expect to buy this? What we have left over is basically a tame romance novel with pictures, from a male point of view. The fact that it's all reading will turn off most gamers. Romance novels aren't something most men would be caught dead reading. That leaves women, who would probably prefer a female POV. In short, MoeNovel screwed themselves by not choosing an all-ages otome game as their first title.
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relentlessflame



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:40 am Reply with quote
Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
Now that they've lost the VN community with censorship, who does MoeNovel expect to buy this? What we have left over is basically a tame romance novel with pictures, from a male point of view. The fact that it's all reading will turn off most gamers. Romance novels aren't something most men would be caught dead reading. That leaves women, who would probably prefer a female POV. In short, MoeNovel screwed themselves by not choosing an all-ages otome game as their first title.

I suppose they may think they can get some interest based on the soaring club aspect, and the overall decent production values. But it is still a novel, and the voices are all in Japanese. I guess it's a pretty good beginner game for those wanting a first VN to try... but yeah, the VN fan community is brutal in their condemnation of this sort of thing. I can say it's a pretty good game 'till I'm blue in the face (and certainly $30 is a reasonable price), but that "community principle" is hard to overcome.
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Draneor



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 355
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:53 am Reply with quote
I actually prefer the game is all ages. Generally speaking, we don't get the console release here (rather the PC). However, ero scenes are pretty terrible and not really interesting to me. As long as the edits are done competently and the story flows, I'd rather play the all ages version.

configspace wrote:
But I still wonder why they want an ESRB rating when it's not required at all for PC games

I believe the game is going on steam (see edit at the bottom).
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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Location: Towson, Maryland
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:16 am Reply with quote
Bablioteca wrote:
'please license erotic games but take the erotic part out.'

i'm actually perfectly okay with this, i can understand people getting miffed but i don't think i'd ever play a visual novel for pornographic content, it seems like a pretty story, if i have the money maybe i'll check it out.

though based on the original comment maybe they went overboard.

i mean, what's wrong with kissing?


Then there are plenty of VNs out there that aren't originally eroges. Censoring an eroge though is completely unacceptable.

relentlessflame wrote:
I guess the main question I would have is: who are they going to try to market this to, and how will they reach them? If they're trying to reach a market of anime viewers, I hardly think a little bit of "fanservice" (and on-the-lips kissing) would have hurt (and they could have gone for an M/PEGI-16 rating). But re-positioning the content to this degree suggests that they have some sort of plan for how they're going to sell it. I'd love to see them succeed (and I think the game itself is certainly worth consideration), but the anime/eroge fan community's predisposition against "censorship" of any kind makes me question if that bad stigma will haunt it to market. (You already have the people chanting "buying it = supporting censorship", which is a shame for the game itself.) If this doesn't work out, it only makes it less likely that good story-centric games will be localized going forward (which is sort of the same boat we were already in).


If they HAD to censor it, they really should have gone for an M rating. That allows them to keep the bath/nudity scenes (nipples are okay for an M rating), kisses, sexual humor etc. It would only remove the h-scenes, which wouldn't make you lose too much of the games quality. But completely removing everything that might be questionable is a joke.

Draneor wrote:
configspace wrote:
But I still wonder why they want an ESRB rating when it's not required at all for PC games

I believe the game is going on steam (see edit at the bottom).


If this is what VNs have to go through to be able to make it on Steam, it might be better to not cater to Steams whims.
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 707
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:36 am Reply with quote
Draneor wrote:
I actually prefer the game is all ages. Generally speaking, we don't get the console release here (rather the PC).

This game doesn't have a console release in Japan. Only English speakers get the privilege of buying an edited version. Rolling Eyes
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:02 pm Reply with quote
Draneor wrote:
I actually prefer the game is all ages. Generally speaking, we don't get the console release here (rather the PC). However, ero scenes are pretty terrible and not really interesting to me. As long as the edits are done competently and the story flows, I'd rather play the all ages version.


I wouldn't be that bothered if it was just the sex scenes removed, as they tend to be terrible (or so I've heard and my very limited experience with VNs certainly supports that; and I'm referring to the plot oriented ones not nukige). However, they've gone beyond that and THAT really bothers me. They've rewritten lines and altered non-ero scene images (and not just to cover up some nudity). I don't see this as any better than censoring anime or rewriting lines for the hell of it there. And some of the non-HCG stuff being changed is really, really dumb.
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relentlessflame



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:24 pm Reply with quote
Draneor wrote:
I actually prefer the game is all ages. Generally speaking, we don't get the console release here (rather the PC). However, ero scenes are pretty terrible and not really interesting to me. As long as the edits are done competently and the story flows, I'd rather play the all ages version.

I suppose (edit: like HitokiriShadow said above) my main concern is with the edits that aren't just "removing explicit scenes", and how much it changes the characters in the story... but I guess I'd have to play the game (again) to compare. Typically, most all-ages/console releases have rather minimal edits aside from the obvious, and are given either a CERO C or CERO D rating (15+ or 17+). The amount that go for a CERO B is a bit less. (For example, all of the D.C. ports are rated C.) (I guess perhaps the issue is that ESRB doesn't have a rating between T and M, and PEGI only has 12 and 16.)

That aside, the other unfortunate thing with this not being an actual all-ages/console release is that you don't get any additional content to make up for what is removed. So, as was mentioned, half of the CG is being removed, but no new CG is being added. This is probably unavoidable, but it is unfortunate.

Anyway, if the game is being released on Steam (which is quite a coup in a way), I hope it manages to find an audience who will give the game a chance. If they figured that this was the price they needed to pay to get on the world's most popular digital distribution platform... then I guess I can follow the thought process.
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Draneor



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 355
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
Then there are plenty of VNs out there that aren't originally eroges. Censoring an eroge though is completely unacceptable.

Of which almost all of the popular ones have all age versions. Why does it matter whether the original had ero or not? if your familiar with the market, you know they port, expand, and modify VNs like crazy. In many cases, these ports have additional content not present in the PC version. There is no "real" version basically--just the one you may want to play.

RyanSaotome wrote:
If this is what VNs have to go through to be able to make it on Steam, it might be better to not cater to Steams whims.

The only community that seems worse at not buying stuff than anime fans and manga fans are visual novel fans. The audience needs to be expanded somehow to those that will buy--or maybe there's just not a viable market for non nukige. Personally, I'm skeptical Steam is the golden ticket but it's worth a shot.

Also, i've been around long enough to know that even if it was perfect no one would buy it. That's just how it works.

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
This game doesn't have a console release in Japan. Only English speakers get the privilege of buying an edited version. Rolling Eyes

Perhaps they're working on one. It wouldn't be unprecedented. Also, I would consider it a privilege if we get an all ages version first.

HitokiriShadow wrote:
However, they've gone beyond that and THAT really bothers me. They've rewritten lines and altered non-ero scene images (and not just to cover up some nudity). I don't see this as any better than censoring anime or rewriting lines for the hell of it there. And some of the non-HCG stuff being changed is really, really dumb.

I've seen a lot of speculation on what was cut and some very general stuff via an email someone posted. But until the game is out we don't know for certain how much of the non-ero stuff was actually cut if any.

Maybe it will be done in a shitty way like Hirameki did. Or maybe it will improve the flow of the story. Personally, nothing annoys me more than an ill-timed poorly written ero scene in the middle of an emotionally powerful scene. So cutting that crap out is an improvement IMO. If they have to draw bath towels on an erotic bathing scene, I'm fine with that.

If people prefer porn in VNs, fine. I can respect that viewpoint. But I don't. I no more want porn in VNs than I want porn in anime. It's just not something I find interesting.

relentlessflame wrote:
I suppose (edit: like HitokiriShadow said above) my main concern is with the edits that aren't just "removing explicit scenes", and how much it changes the characters in the story... but I guess I'd have to play the game (again) to compare.

I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts once the game has come out. Have you played the demo? It's un-QCed but perhaps it could give you an idea.

relentlessflame wrote:
Typically, most all-ages/console releases have rather minimal edits aside from the obvious, and are given either a CERO C or CERO D rating (15+ or 17+). The amount that go for a CERO B is a bit less. (For example, all of the D.C. ports are rated C.) (I guess perhaps the issue is that ESRB doesn't have a rating between T and M, and PEGI only has 12 and 16.)

As you know, Japan's rating systems have very different standards than the ERSB so there's not a lot of value in comparing them. I know one of the issues Minori raised during the ef controversy is they did not believe it was ethical to release a VN here if it wasn't rated. Of course, they eventually did... but purpose pulltop is operating under similar logic. Or maybe it has to do with Steam. We can only speculate as to why they submitted it for a ESRB rating.

relentlessflame wrote:
That aside, the other unfortunate thing with this not being an actual all-ages/console release is that you don't get any additional content to make up for what is removed. So, as was mentioned, half of the CG is being removed, but no new CG is being added. This is probably unavoidable, but it is unfortunate.

The reason I don't buy this argument it's also $35 as opposed to ~$80-$100 for the Japanese version. Yes, if you wanted the ero version, half the CGs are missing and no new routes were added. But nothing I wanted may have been cut and it's cheaper and translated.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Draneor wrote:
RyanSaotome wrote:
Then there are plenty of VNs out there that aren't originally eroges. Censoring an eroge though is completely unacceptable.

Of which almost all of the popular ones have all age versions. Why does it matter whether the original had ero or not? if your familiar with the market, you know they port, expand, and modify VNs like crazy. In many cases, these ports have additional content not present in the PC version. There is no "real" version basically--just the one you may want to play.

RyanSaotome wrote:
If this is what VNs have to go through to be able to make it on Steam, it might be better to not cater to Steams whims.

The only community that seems worse at not buying stuff than anime fans and manga fans are visual novel fans. The audience needs to be expanded somehow to those that will buy--or maybe there's just not a viable market for non nukige. Personally, I'm skeptical Steam is the golden ticket but it's worth a shot.

Also, i've been around long enough to know that even if it was perfect no one would buy it. That's just how it works.

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
This game doesn't have a console release in Japan. Only English speakers get the privilege of buying an edited version. Rolling Eyes

Perhaps they're working on one. It wouldn't be unprecedented. Also, I would consider it a privilege if we get an all ages version first.

HitokiriShadow wrote:
However, they've gone beyond that and THAT really bothers me. They've rewritten lines and altered non-ero scene images (and not just to cover up some nudity). I don't see this as any better than censoring anime or rewriting lines for the hell of it there. And some of the non-HCG stuff being changed is really, really dumb.

I've seen a lot of speculation on what was cut and some very general stuff via an email someone posted. But until the game is out we don't know for certain how much of the non-ero stuff was actually cut if any.

Maybe it will be done in a shitty way like Hirameki did. Or maybe it will improve the flow of the story. Personally, nothing annoys me more than an ill-timed poorly written ero scene in the middle of an emotionally powerful scene. So cutting that crap out is an improvement IMO. If they have to draw bath towels on an erotic bathing scene, I'm fine with that.

If people prefer porn in VNs, fine. I can respect that viewpoint. But I don't. I no more want porn in VNs than I want porn in anime. It's just not something I find interesting.

relentlessflame wrote:
I suppose (edit: like HitokiriShadow said above) my main concern is with the edits that aren't just "removing explicit scenes", and how much it changes the characters in the story... but I guess I'd have to play the game (again) to compare.

I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts once the game has come out. Have you played the demo? It's un-QCed but perhaps it could give you an idea.

relentlessflame wrote:
Typically, most all-ages/console releases have rather minimal edits aside from the obvious, and are given either a CERO C or CERO D rating (15+ or 17+). The amount that go for a CERO B is a bit less. (For example, all of the D.C. ports are rated C.) (I guess perhaps the issue is that ESRB doesn't have a rating between T and M, and PEGI only has 12 and 16.)

As you know, Japan's rating systems have very different standards than the ERSB so there's not a lot of value in comparing them. I know one of the issues Minori raised during the ef controversy is they did not believe it was ethical to release a VN here if it wasn't rated. Of course, they eventually did... but purpose pulltop is operating under similar logic. Or maybe it has to do with Steam. We can only speculate as to why they submitted it for a ESRB rating.

relentlessflame wrote:
That aside, the other unfortunate thing with this not being an actual all-ages/console release is that you don't get any additional content to make up for what is removed. So, as was mentioned, half of the CG is being removed, but no new CG is being added. This is probably unavoidable, but it is unfortunate.

The reason I don't buy this argument it's also $35 as opposed to ~$80-$100 for the Japanese version. Yes, if you wanted the ero version, half the CGs are missing and no new routes were added. But nothing I wanted may have been cut and it's cheaper and translated.


For me it really depends if the sex is a part of the story. From an ergoe such as "A drug that makes you dream", it is very necessarily for one of the best endings in the game to understand what's going on. Now beleive it or not they do have an all ages school days game called LxH for the ps2 but to me it wasn't the same to me.

Not only was massive amounts of sex cut out but they took away the blood as well, which is huge bummer. Now I can agree with you with certain games from key/visual arts such as kanon air or little buster ex that feel very awkward to read through. Personally the erotica needs to flow in well with the game, you don't start off with right off the bat nor do you keep in middle of the game. It needs to be built up over the course of the route you're playing, then lead actual events.

TL;DR i'm sorry for the massive quote here everyone, i'm in a bit of an hurry.
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relentlessflame



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:14 pm Reply with quote
Draneor wrote:
I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts once the game has come out. Have you played the demo? It's un-QCed but perhaps it could give you an idea.

I downloaded it, but haven't yet tried it. Of course, it's been a long while since I played the original so I'd have to probably refresh my memory first. That said, from what I gather of how far the demo goes (which seems to be much shorter than the Japanese demo was), I doubt there would have been much alterations in that early part.

Draneor wrote:
As you know, Japan's rating systems have very different standards than the ERSB so there's not a lot of value in comparing them. I know one of the issues Minori raised during the ef controversy is they did not believe it was ethical to release a VN here if it wasn't rated. Of course, they eventually did... but purpose pulltop is operating under similar logic. Or maybe it has to do with Steam. We can only speculate as to why they submitted it for a ESRB rating.

Fair enough. I suppose my only point was that they still could have released the game and have it rated, but go for an M/PEGI-16 instead and presumably not require so many extensive edits (beyond the obvious). So it does make me curious as to why they chose that tier as opposed to a higher tier.

Draneor wrote:
The reason I don't buy this argument it's also $35 as opposed to ~$80-$100 for the Japanese version. Yes, if you wanted the ero version, half the CGs are missing and no new routes were added. But nothing I wanted may have been cut and it's cheaper and translated.

Yes, I was actually thinking the same thing. But again, I was mostly meaning that, if this had been a localization of an existing port, at least you would have gotten the extra content. Here, it's just removed and nothing added... but you're right that the lower price can be seen as compensation. I tend to think that $30/$35 is about the right price for an all-ages VN anyway in this market, particularly if they're putting it on Steam alongside other "Real Games (TM)" that sell for $50/$60. (Not saying this opinion is sustainable/fully-reasonable, but I do tend to think that's how the wider market outside of the core-VN community may perceive it.)


Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
For me it really depends if the sex is a part of the story. From an ergoe such as "A drug that makes you dream", it is very necessarily for one of the best endings in the game to understand what's going on. Now beleive it or not they do have an all ages school days game called LxH for the ps2 but to me it wasn't the same to me.

Not only was massive amounts of sex cut out but they took away the blood as well, which is huge bummer. Now I can agree with you with certain games from key/visual arts such as kanon air or little buster ex that feel very awkward to read through. Personally the erotica needs to flow in well with the game, you don't start off with right off the bat nor do you keep in middle of the game. It needs to be built up over the course of the route you're playing, then lead actual events.

In this game, I would say it's somewhere in between. I'd say there are really two, maybe three scenes that I'd consider somewhat "story-important" beyond just establishing the nature of the relationship, and one in particular that may be a little bit tricky to work around. But for the most part, they're set-up as short stories that occur at logical points over the course of each route.


By the way, I think I can guess what they mean when they're talking about removing "kissing with lips touching" (allusion to a scene already alluded to in official promo material):

spoiler[In the Ageha kissing CG shown at the bottom on the official site, there are also two "cut-ins" that show the two kissing in more detail (close-up of the mouths, saliva strings, etc.). So I imagine what they did is just shorten the length of the kiss scene (and the related sound effects) and eliminated the cut-ins, so you still get the kiss scene, it's just more abbreviated. To be honest, I don't think this will adversely impact the scene considering the rest of the more-explicit content is already gone.]
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Yerld



Joined: 31 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:38 pm Reply with quote
They could be banking on the visibility of Steam to promote sales. Until now, Valve refused to consider the genre at all, citing both the lack of interactivity and negative perception amongst gamers. Perhaps the T rating and clean slate for MoeNovel helped turn the tide, allowing for a breakthrough.

On a related note, the fear of criminal accusation remains real among both developers and English-language publishers. As of now, the market is a bit of a wild west, which is why servers are located in the Netherlands, companies and staff are based in Japan (one of MangaGamer's initial founders/investors is American, but to my knowledge, they've avoided any direct reference to his identity), etc.
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