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NEWS: Downloaded Sora no Otoshimono Copy Shown at Funimation Studio


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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:07 pm Reply with quote
dfrehil wrote:
Paploo wrote:
Xanas wrote:
I didn't say your rights should be ignored. I said that IP rights don't exist.


But they do exist, they're actual laws recognized internationally that protect my right across the world. My IP rights are my rights, they're a human right that prevent me from being abused by people who would like to profit from my work without my involvement or benefit.

Or are you that guy who thinks governements aren't real/laws don't matter? I seem to recall having this dicsussion before.


"Because it's the law" is not a valid argument. Laws must have real rational reasons for being laws.

IP rights are not human rights, they are not found in the UDHR. "IP" is a bogus industry buzzword coined in an era before the internet and is used as a justification to do some truly heinous things.


Forcing you to buy stuff is "truly heinous things"? I would generally use "truly heinous" for things like genocide but you might be different.
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maylo



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:50 pm Reply with quote
IP is just another term for property rights, whether trademarks, patents, copyright, etc

Last edited by maylo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:54 pm Reply with quote
dfrehil wrote:
"Because it's the law" is not a valid argument. Laws must have real rational reasons for being laws.
The reason for copyright law is the experience after the introduction of mass printing and prior to the granting of copyright in which it was found that the free mass copying of original works discouraged their creation.

The rationale is thus the same as the rationale for patent ~ the grant of a monopoly for a limited time for the purpose of encouraging the creation of original works.

Quote:
IP rights are not human rights, they are not found in the UDHR.
The only rights that exist are those that are presented in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? That's a bit of a daft thing to suggest, isn't it?

Quote:
"IP" is a bogus industry buzzword coined in an era before the internet and is used as a justification to do some truly heinous things.
But there is no need to use the term: Copyright does fine enough.

Nor, indeed, is there any reason to abuse the rationale for copyrights, as the egregious abuse of the rationale for copyright represented by the current US rights expiration dates, which is effectively an additional ten years every decade in order to protect Disney from having Mickey Mouse go into the public domain ...
... since the vast majority of bootleg distribution is focused on very recent vintage works and will be protected by any reasonable copyright protection granted to their creators.

AFter all, its not Astro Boy and Captain Harlock that get their own dedicated bootleg sites and get featured with direct top of frame links in the bootleg links ~ it is Naruto, Bleach and One Piece.
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dfrehil



Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:07 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
The reason for copyright law is the experience after the introduction of mass printing and prior to the granting of copyright in which it was found that the free mass copying of original works discouraged their creation.

The rationale is thus the same as the rationale for patent ~ the grant of a monopoly for a limited time for the purpose of encouraging the creation of original works.


Creative Commons.

Quote:
The only rights that exist are those that are presented in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? That's a bit of a daft thing to suggest, isn't it?


Not as daft as suggesting IP is a "human right".

Quote:

But there is no need to use the term: Copyright does fine enough.

Nor, indeed, is there any reason to abuse the rationale for copyrights, as the egregious abuse of the rationale for copyright represented by the current US rights expiration dates, which is effectively an additional ten years every decade in order to protect Disney from having Mickey Mouse go into the public domain, since the vast majority of bootleg distribution is focused on very recent vintage works and will be protected by any reasonable copyright protection granted to their creators.

After all, its not Astro Boy and Captain Harlock that get their own dedicated bootleg sites and get featured with direct top of frame links in the bootleg links ~ it is Naruto, Bleach and One Piece.


I kind of feel like I'm missing something you're saying here.

Pretty much everything done in the name of "protecting copyright" is Bad News for anyone BUT big content holders.

ACTA, COICA, DMCA, etc.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:19 pm Reply with quote
How do you suggest that anime companies, and video game companies make up the 10's of millions of dollars necessary to not only make a profit but to break even?

I have seen hundreds if not thousands of people talk about how evil copyright is but the suggestions given are either nowhere near enough to cover the cost (aggregators make less than 10 million nowhere enough to break even) or border on insane troll logic (Nike can make money by basically having slaves makes shoes so why can't hollywood do the same)
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FaytLein



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 1260
Location: Williamsburg, VA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:31 pm Reply with quote
Ah, the old "BIG BUSINESS IS BAD" angle. The sad truth is that you can debate the legitimacy of copyright/IP until the cows come home, but the sad truth is people being people, SOME form of protecting the incentive to create HAS to exist. Can copyright/IP be tweaked to be a more effective in the new internet age? Sure it can. But slapping a half-thought out solution and applying it in the real world that caters to things that we have a personal stake in as opposed to an all encompassing law that fits everyone should be the goal.

And big business is at the very least, the BEST way to produce and manage things.

....Did I really say that?

Unless everyone contributed to everything ever made, shared production costs and marketing expenses, a big company streamlines a lot of these expenses, and if you had to depend on individuals to get things done, you would NEVER be able to accomplish anything.
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Emerje



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 7328
Location: Maine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:59 pm Reply with quote
hikaricore wrote:
Emerje wrote:
Seeing gg as a news source is a little odd, but that's where I had read it, too. (I don't normally go directly to fansub group sites, I don't even remember what I was looking for)


You don't gotta lie..
No one but elitest twats care if you watch fansubs.


I wasn't lying, I admit to watching fansubs, but I usually go through a site like Suki rather than directly to the source. I really don't remember what I was on their site for.

Emerje
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:48 pm Reply with quote
FaytLein wrote:
Ah, the old "BIG BUSINESS IS BAD" angle. The sad truth is that you can debate the legitimacy of copyright/IP until the cows come home, but the sad truth is people being people, SOME form of protecting the incentive to create HAS to exist. Can copyright/IP be tweaked to be a more effective in the new internet age? Sure it can. But slapping a half-thought out solution and applying it in the real world that caters to things that we have a personal stake in as opposed to an all encompassing law that fits everyone should be the goal.

And big business is at the very least, the BEST way to produce and manage things.

....Did I really say that?

Unless everyone contributed to everything ever made, shared production costs and marketing expenses, a big company streamlines a lot of these expenses, and if you had to depend on individuals to get things done, you would NEVER be able to accomplish anything.


I can understand the big business is bad line of thinking in some things like the exploitation of workers, the attacking of unions, and trying to dominate how we see the world through things like controlling the internet, but copyright isn't some conspiracy theory to have certain companies dominate everything. Disney and Warner Brothers got where they got by smart business decisions, making high quality works, and showmanship. A bedroom programmer doesn't have 30 million dollars to make a game that rivals Grand Theft Auto. You can't make the cost back of a 26 episode anime series by streaming it. You have to get the money back with DVDs.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:49 pm Reply with quote
FaytLein wrote:
And big business is at the very least, the BEST way to produce and manage things.
That's something that has to be worked out on an industry by industry basis ~ and indeed, subject to change with changes in technology. Where large scale capital infrastructure and long term advanced planning is required, then big business is required, and the questions are more along the lines of what kind of governance ~ commercial corporation, syndicalist corporation, publicly owned corporation, or some mix of the three, and also with or without substantial government regulations or tax or subsidy depending on free rider benefits and free rider costs for that particular good or service.

In anime, the institution of the production committee brings big business (television networks, publishers, merchandisers) and medium sized or small business (anime studios) together in project by project collaborations.

dfrehil wrote:
agila61 wrote:
The reason for copyright law is the experience after the introduction of mass printing and prior to the granting of copyright in which it was found that the free mass copying of original works discouraged their creation.

The rationale is thus the same as the rationale for patent ~ the grant of a monopoly for a limited time for the purpose of encouraging the creation of original works.
Creative Commons.
Creative Commons rests upon copyright. Copyright is what gives the creator the right to decide under what terms the work can be shared.

Quote:
Quote:
The only rights that exist are those that are presented in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? That's a bit of a daft thing to suggest, isn't it?
Not as daft as suggesting IP is a "human right".
The argument that something is not a human right unless it is specified in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ~ that is quite a bit more daft than the argument that a creator's right to control the copying is a human right. It is, after all, a right that is primarily granted to humans, and a right that is widely recognized.

Quote:
I kind of feel like I'm missing something you're saying here.

Pretty much everything done in the name of "protecting copyright" is Bad News for anyone BUT big content holders.

ACTA, COICA, DMCA, etc.
I am saying that none of those abuses is adequate reason for acting like an ungrateful scumbag and trampling on the rights of the creators of the works that we enjoy and, in some cases, treasure, and so, while the critique of these abuses for the purposes of campaigning for reform is quite appropriate, using these abuses as a justification for acting like an ungrateful scumbag and trampling on the rights of the creators is not appropriate.
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OtakuExile



Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Neo Vegas
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:52 pm Reply with quote
This recycled fear mongering of how things works has gone on for decades, and nothing but bigger hard drives and faster connections have resulted in the quest of protecting those who have copyrights.

I'm guessing it will be another 20 years before someone does something about it.
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Ryojen



Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:31 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

Based on all my previous interactions with you, you will only accept statements that are slanted in favor of your personal dogma about fansubs as being "truth", so there's zero point in arguing with you.

I will say though that you completely ignored my point in favor of going on the usual 'ANN sux' rail.

Your original post on this matter was just as slanted and dogmatic as mine. I'm merely presenting the opposing viewpoint using the same callously dismissive snark you're so proficient with.

Zac wrote:
Maybe what I was actually saying would've been more palatable to you and your fans in this thread if I'd said that this non-issue will have as much real-world sincere impact on Funimation and their bottom line as the '1337 pirates' lawsuit thing will have on the fansub community, which is to say, none whatsoever aside from a bunch of message board drama and some blog posts about IP.

I have fans? SWEET!

I don't disagree with this point, which is rather disheartening. This SHOULD be a big deal. Funimation deserves to be held accountable for this, and embarrassed to the point that they will never try to bully fansubbers with frivolous lawsuits ever again. But, in this day and age, huge corporations can use their well-funded legal departments to attack the little guy with no real consequences to themselves. They can ruin your life if they so choose, by simply filing a lawsuit that you cannot afford to fight.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 964
Location: The Argama
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:46 am Reply with quote
I love how people rail against Zac saying how he's anti-fansub. I have never heard him once say that people who download fansubs are evil or wrong. He's said a lot about people who ONLY download and don't buy anything, and people who upload.

To be honest its quite comical, its like a game of telephone, he says one thing and it gets spread around and now he and ANN hate everything to do with fansubs and how all the fans are evil and shouldn't be allowed to live!

as for this whole "controversy" i really don't see the big deal, they used their own stuff? not sure what all this hypocrisy talk is all about.

Quote:
I don't disagree with this point, which is rather disheartening. This SHOULD be a big deal. Funimation deserves to be held accountable for this, and embarrassed to the point that they will never try to bully fansubbers with frivolous lawsuits ever again. But, in this day and age, huge corporations can use their well-funded legal departments to attack the little guy with no real consequences to themselves. They can ruin your life if they so choose, by simply filing a lawsuit that you cannot afford to fight.


It's quite amusing how you think FUNimation has a large legal department that can sue the pants off of whomever they want. Or that they use lawsuits as anything other than a last resort with most of these groups.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5821
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:05 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:


TarsTarkas wrote:
While legally right on using the fansub, it does paint a not so nice picture of them considering their anti-fansub actions. As someone said before, "Do as I say, not as I do." They legally used a illegal fansub because it was convienent for them to do so. Much like what people who watch fansubs do.
... its certainly no "do as I say, not as I do" of any sort regarding the copyright infringement lawsuit: they were suing over illegal distribution of bootlegs, not over downloading...


Most people use BT to download their fansub anime. They are not purposely distributing anime, and most likely don't even think they are distributers. So when you say Funimation is suing over the illegal distribution of fansubs, and not over downloading, you are incorrect. It is for the most part one in the same. If you are downloading fansubs, you are most likely uploading also, whether intentional or unintentional on the downloaders part.

Funimation, while well within their rights, has taken a very public and active anti-fansub posture. By doing so, the last thing they should be doing is downloading fansubs. It is the very hypocritical of Funimation. I believe it was a bunch of lazy employees who did the downloading, because I find it very hard to believe that Funimation's management would authorize this type of action, which could have negative public relations effects and could have adverse effects on their corporate legal action against fansub groups and downloaders.

It is the very height of hypocrisy to use fansubs as part of their production work, especially when they have tried going after fansub downloaders in the courts. It is 'Do as I say, not as I do'.

But as Zac has said, nothing much will come of it. Sounds like Funimation will not address the issue officially at all. Hopefully, Funimation's management took their employees to task on this matter.
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sweaterpuppies



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:25 am Reply with quote
"Downloading a japanese workraw is too much effort guys. Let's download those HS guys stuff, it's so easy and convenient. Sure wish we could get our materials like that. P.S. this font style is so coal bro's."
You have just been trolled by Funimation.

P.P.S. Did demonizing fansubs and the fansubbers themselves a few years back get rid of them or lower the amount of fansubs present? Good job bro's. Fight the good fight by doing absolutely nothing at all. Declaring IP is an inherent right, root for those organizations lobbying that copyright should extend even further (never end), and hail the great ideas stifled by novel ideas like software patents.


Last edited by sweaterpuppies on Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:29 am Reply with quote
Ryojen wrote:

Zac wrote:
Maybe what I was actually saying would've been more palatable to you and your fans in this thread if I'd said that this non-issue will have as much real-world sincere impact on Funimation and their bottom line as the '1337 pirates' lawsuit thing will have on the fansub community, which is to say, none whatsoever aside from a bunch of message board drama and some blog posts about IP.


I don't disagree with this point, which is rather disheartening. This SHOULD be a big deal.


You find it disheartening that the '1337 pirates' lawsuit thing will have a non-issue real-world impact on the fansub community? Laughing
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