Forum - View topicJason Thompson's House of 1000 Manga - Hinako Takanaga
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
ptolemy18
Manga Reviewer/Creator/Taster
Posts: 357 Location: San Francisco |
|
|||||||||
This is a neat discussion.  Generally speaking, I'm skeptical on issues of sexual (or cultural or racial) appropriation. As a matter of principle, I don't believe that only members of a certain group should be able to write as if from the perspective of that group. I mean, group identity is fluid, as is sexual orientation with many people. But I guess a lot of it comes down to how accurately the writer is able to portray the unfamiliar group... and of course, an outsider may not have any idea how accurate they're being. (My personal pet peeve is Westerners who write manga set in Japanese high schools.) It's human nature to want to see through others' eyes, to be other people, to imagine being/experiencing/knowing other people and cultures. And it's also human nature to make up bullsh*t about people, or not to care about reality when the fiction is more entertaining, of course. What group X means *to you* can be very psychologically meaningful to you even though it has nothing to do with how group X really is. Definitely, most BL doesn't do a very convincing job of pretending to represent the viewpoint of a gay man -- at least I, a straight man, think it's unconvincing, for what it's worth. -_-
That said, there's many different types of stereotypes. Like you said, BL does present an at-least-outwardly-positive portrayal of gay relationships. Is the kind of pseudo-homosexuality that's glamorized in BL is a step up culturally from the days when gay people were thought of as, at best, tragic outcasts? (And at worst, really really bad stuff....) But I imagine that being exoticized as magical unicorns for the amusement of BL readers is not to the taste of most gay men -- just like being thought of as 'exotic' and 'good at math' and a 'model minority' is not to the taste of most Asian folks. (Although there's always *some* people who don't mind being magical unicorns. Some people are happy to put their private lives and their sexuality on public display, and I have to admit I love it when they do. I love glam, drag shows, transvestism and other sorts of showoffy gender-and-orientation-bending, by gay, straight, bi and not-telling performers.) Incidentally, although Erica Friedman would know this better than me, I've also heard it suggested that BL has a decent-sized lesbian fanbase in Japan... as if for some of its readers BL still serves as an expression of same-sex attraction, just in male drag, maybe to make it safer. (I mean, all those men who love yuri can't *all* be straight, can they? -_- ) Have you read Christopher Butcher's writings on BL? He's generally skeptical of it, but he has praise for some titles. Last edited by ptolemy18 on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
|
|||||||||
|
Alexis.Anagram -
You might find this article interesting. It's a gay comic artist's take on yaoi that I found very interesting and it was followed by an extensive (if sometimes rather fractious) discussion in the comments that also brought up a lot of interesting points. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
lebrel
Posts: 374 |
|
|||||||||
This is also true for Western female readers, both from academic surveys and from my personal experience. There's quite a variety of people who read BL, spanning the full range of LGBTQI & asexual, as well as people who identify as straight but have non-normative gender identities. BL may not speak particularly strongly to gay men, but that does not mean that it is irrelevant to everyone but straight women. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Brand
 Posts: 1028 |
|
|||||||||
Well in Naono Bohra's Three Wolves Mountain one of main characters is the care taker of a grave yard, which is pretty close. I highly recommend reading it if you like BL/Yaoi it is one of my favorites. Actually I pretty much like most of the Naono Bohra stuff. Jason, on the topic of liking BL titles with older characters... I do think as I have gotten older I much prefer stories with older characters. While a good high school story can still be really good, it starts to get hard to relate to. As I get older I am moving farther away from relating to high school situations as I am no longer close to them. Also, at least as a woman, I've moved on from the cute bishonen to the more hansom bisenien. At some point it just started to get a little creepy to read sexy stories about teen boys. While I can justify that they are not real, I'd rather just read something that didn't make me feel a little guilty for reading it. In fact this is part of why Naono Bohra's stuff so much a lot of it has much older characters. Also her stuff tends to be less rapey and have many more fantasy elements then the average BL. But it was the older characters that drew me to it. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
poonk
 Posts: 1490 Location: In the Library with Philip |
|
|||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||||
|
I like Takanaga's humor.
It's really hard to take a series as a serious romance when the couple seeks advice on how to consumate their relationship, but it was funny. I like Tyrant, but I have issues with it. I really dislike Morinaga because he's very manipulative-almost in the range of my sex offenders. He's very squishy. As for BL being an accurate representation of homosexuals-mot really. I've seen a handful probably. BL is part of the shojo genre, not shonen so it's romance. Sometimes the author tries to make a stab at realism, but basically, it's fantasy. More often than not the story is typical shojo romance with the chick turned into a male. Really-often I find myself wondering if the story had originally been conceived as straight shojo. It's fantasy, plain & simple. One can even see the stories that were "ordered"-like Finder for an S&M/Bondage issue of the zine or Casino Lily ordered up for the glitz & glamour of a casino story. They greatly remind me of the old paperback series based on various tv shows like Man From U.N.C.L.E or Dark Shadows-emphasis on delivering to the fans what they love about the show over any real literary value. Fan Service. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Nayu
Posts: 676 |
|
|||||||||
Um, then Yankee-kun to Megane-chan must be shojo too cause its romance. And "A Town where you Live".... And "Love Hina".... And "Shuffle!" Seriously, just because something is romance does not in any way make it shojo. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
|
|||||||||
|
I know I haven't read a lot of yaoi yet, but most of the ones I've read, I can't imagine them as straight romances. Course I hate generic romances of any kind, which is why I stopped reading straight romance novels ages ago. Tyrant has been my favorite so far and Tatsumi is my favorite of the two. I don't really have a problem with Morinaga though; he's usually a nice guy. The only reason he's manipulative is because Tatsumi's so hard headed. Actually I'm surprised more people don't have an issue with Tatsumi's abusive behavior towards Morinaga, which started even BEFORE
Morinaga started manipulating him. Of course, I don't approve of either behavior in real life, but it's only fiction and it makes sense in the context of the story. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Alexis.Anagram
 Posts: 278 Location: Mishopshno |
|
|||||||||
Yet we enter some interesting intellectual territory here, because intent also factors into this discussion. In the case of BL, it could be argued that the intent is solely to provide a pornographic fantasy-- that it presumes a freedom to be as ridiculous as it chooses to be because the one thing it isn't trying to do is convince anyone of its believability (whether or not all yaoi titles are made with this intent and whether or not they effectively communicate this is the other debate at hand). In a similar manner, the mere inclusion of a gay character (or characters) amongst heterosexual characters intended to provide a backdrop of realism to the story (i.e. "hey, guess what, not everyone is straight") left at that isn't likely to attract much criticism and may even be celebrated (keep in mind that this doesn't mean that character has to lack depth, but it can be independent from the perceived influence of their sexual orientation; in fact, I consider one of the pitfalls of LGBTQ character creation to be the notion that because such and such a character is queer, their persona, inward conflicts and emotional developments must all be derived from that aspect). I think where cultural appropriation is found to be truly egregious is when it takes place in the context of a story that is trying to communicate a relevant message through its subject matter; for instance, having a racially and culturally white author attempt to engage an authentic black experience through her works in order to deliver an opinion on racism and social dysfunction in matters of racial, cultural barriers (however "positive" and "black-friendly" a portrayal it may be) is arguably not the best means by which to meet those ends. In the same sense, LGBTQ-related works created by people who are not LGBTQ-identifying which nonetheless make the effort to breach LGBTQ-specific conflicts of gender and sexuality find themselves in a certain awkward creative space: they assume the responsibility to provide an accurate sampling of a kind of collective LGBTQ experience, yet the natural prerequisite here would be that the creator has an actual firm understanding of that experience-- which is quite hard to grasp unless it's one that is equally personal (the recent Wandering Son, of which I have been fairly critical on this basis, comes to mind). On that level, I really don't consider all works written by people outside of their cultural bracket to be categorical failures, but intent and, subsequently, execution do enter the debate surrounding cultural appropriation and the argument to be made for why it can detract from a real understanding of different kinds of people.
Well, whether people love it or not doesn't really answer the question as to whether it does real harm to a particular community. As I see it, characterizing any group of people by way of a general notion or stereotype is a Bad Thing, regardless of how positive or negative said stereotype may be. The essential harm a stereotype inflicts doesn't manifest in how it affects human perspective in a sense of good or bad, but rather in that it affects human perspective at all. Stereotypes are limiting by definition, and whenever people are lead to view foreign people and their experiences via a limited scope of comprehension the way is paved for the harboring of prejudices and discriminative mindsets. I've been called a "tranny" both affectionately and dismissively, but in either case I've felt basically demeaned as a person; I don't consider myself a transvestite and at any rate I don't feel that how I dress should be taken as an indication of who I am. However, because of the positive and negative stereotypes attributed with clothing choices (as well as a universally gender-divisive paradigm which facilitates this kind of discrimination), it's almost inevitable that any time I socially interact with a stranger who isn't queer (and often even if they are) I will be referred to using that description. Worse, a close friend of mine is a female transvestite, and equating us does a disservice to both of us because our personal identities and ensuing human experiences are vastly different.
Which is partially why BL is such an intriguing phenomenon; while it is presumably targeted towards straight female readers, it has managed to expand as a genre, stretching and emphasizing different elements which appeal to different readers for different reasons-- for example, the sexual ambiguity and fluidity of the characters in some works could be seen as a manner in which to evade endorsing homosexuality or allowing for the possibility that some men are simply attracted to men, while by others it could be seen as a powerful exploration of sex and romantic attraction not restricted to questions of gender and therefore less divisive or separatist in its provocation of thoughts and discussion on that level. Being pansexual, that may be part of the reason I do enjoy titles like Loveless (by Yun Kouga) which I feel fall firmly in the latter category in terms of substance, making questions of "male or female" or "homosexual and heterosexual" less prevalent in favor of questions regarding the basics of being in love, developing healthy relationships and universal sexual and emotional concerns that any person can relate to and have valid input on-- making sexual orientation almost irrelevant in spite of itself. (Although I feel Loveless is exceptional in this regard and may not be a very good example since it's the only series I've read that does this in the context of an actual narrative, and also because it isn't strictly BL. On the contrary, in BL titles that I've read which examine this, the exploration often does end up feeling like an empty cop-out granted to the characters so they can have sex without confronting the fact that maybe for the last sixteen to twenty years they've been identifying as strictly heterosexual, i.e. by way of the oft-cited, "Well, you look like a girl and I'm an extremely horny adolescent male so I suppose I can screw your brains out!" or the even more inept, "I don't love men, I just love YOU!")
No, but I'll certainly try to find them. I'm always pleasantly surprised at how much more adequate others are at expressing this concern than I am and having other perspectives to cite never detracts from what I'm inferring. :]
Thank you! I read it and will be linking friends. This is the kind of argument people need to hear, coming from a gay male (at least that's what I gathered?) who can better explain how it affects them personally than I can. :] |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
gynocrat_rex
 Posts: 57 Location: Texas |
|
|||||||||
|
Great article Jason! and yes, I truly did feel you all were a myth until I met you. Funny thing is, not long after you began waxing philosophic with me on BL titles - I met some guys over at the DMP forums also into Yaoi and they were straight. They were genuinely interested in the stories and not just into BL because their girlfriend/wife was, or because 'saying you like yaoi gets the girls to talk to you at conventions'.
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
fanrandom
Posts: 10 Location: A small island somewhere in the real world |
|
|||||||||
|
Wow! What an interesting set of replies! I'm so glad there are other people out there who are interested in a better understanding of this genre beyond the typical "It's so smutty" responses I often see.
JT thank you for the article. When I was just getting interested in yaoi and BL I looked to your book to find something I might enjoy and decided on Little Butterfly. It was my first BL, and I still think it's my favorite in large part because of the points you mentioned. I've since gone to your manga guide on numerous occasions to find other titles so I appreciate all your hard work.
I am also amazed at how many fans seem to believe that the majority of mangaka writing BL are men. I suspect many of them are young, or not interested in learning more about the authors. I know when I tell my friends about BL manga and that is written predominantly by women for women they don't understand. But for me that is an important point. Clearly this type of manga isn't meant to confront the issues of what it really means to be gay in Japanese society, but to offer a means of fantasizing about relationships in ways that make them accessible, and possibly non-threatening, to female readers. (I wonder if that is why so many fans seem to accept, or even enjoy, the more violent stories, because a female reader can distance herself from the male on male violence. I personally don't like to see that in any story, no matter what gender is being victimized.) I am still trying to figure all this out for myself so I'm glad to see so many other thoughtful comments. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Alexis.Anagram
Posts: 278 Location: Mishopshno |
|
|||||||||
Ah, but the implication here is that real (homosexual?) relationships are in some way threatening to women, which is not a very nice notion to perpetuate. Additionally, it arguably provides a sub-textual incentive to think of homosexual relationships as somehow less emotionally involved or impacting than heterosexual ones; not unlike the dime-store romance paperback, this is the "perfect" relationship that always works out, no matter what roadblocks may stand in the way. Except the difference is that this particular genre dispatches such a message through the adoption of an identity that isn't the creators' own; romance paperbacks are often written by women from the perspective of a woman finding her ideal man and are therapeutic as such (not that there aren't rightful dissenters in this matter as well); BL requires the author and the target audience alike to invigorate what would already be a vicarious experience through utilization of an entirely different, imagined host-- gay men. And this imagined experience may even be, as you indicated, preferable in so many respects to the reality of gay relationships that it may lead some readers to use it as a proxy by which to "understand" the "gay experience" which would be a very bad idea for some very obvious reasons (and yet apparently not out of the question, as I can attest to). This is just one out of many examples as to how yaoi can be seen as exploitative and harmful towards the gay community, stemmed from a singular statement you made which actually serves as the foundation for how and why this could and does happen. Is it a strong argument against the production of yaoi itself? Not necessarily. But it does give you something to think about when you hear a self-proclaimed yaoi fangirl squealing over what a "faghag" she is and how she always talks romance with her pet gay. Using homosexuality as a remedial course for broken-hearted or inexperienced girls in the ways of love may not be the best idea; kind of like how trying to gain a well-rounded, informed perspective on Japanese culture through anime may not serve a person well in the long-run. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
fanrandom
Posts: 10 Location: A small island somewhere in the real world |
|
|||||||||
You make a good point. What I was actually thinking when I wrote my comments was not necessarily the converse, that homosexual relationships might be considered threatening by women, but that women who read these manga should consider them as the fictional creations that they are, in much the same way that one might identify with other fictional characters whether or not you share their gender/ethnicity/nationality, etc. When I read BL, or really any manga, I don't consider what these characters might be in real life, because they're fictional. I don't look to manga to get answers for real world experiences. But I am also older than the average manga reader and know not to interpret these plots or characters as examples of what happens in real life. I don't think my experiences with manga represents the norm.
I agree with you. If someone reads these stories and takes them at face value, or realistic examples of gay relationships, it becomes problematic and possibly damaging to the fans who believe them. For example, I've always been uncomfortable with the violent, non-consensual relationships that exist in yaoi (I realize this is also a common theme with other types of manga) and how some fans seem to really enjoy these stories, the more violent the better. And I really worry that there are people, men and women, reading these who think that this type of "To show my love for you I am going to force you" attitude is acceptable, since so many of these manga end with the two characters in a relationship. This might be especially damaging for yaoi fans since it seems that the majority are very young and less experienced. Other types of manga where this type of violence is portrayed are read by an older fan base on average. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Cait
 Posts: 503 |
|
|||||||||
|
I remember being as flabbergasted as Makoto Tateno was in that Afterward of Hate to Love You about being asked to make a female character smaller in a panel. Her astonishment seemed to have come from a long career as a shojo mangaka (sort of bucking that mentioned trend that BL is a gateway for young artists into manga), while mine came from, well, being quite a bit older than BL's current target audience and having already shed the stigmas against members of my own gender. I have to wonder, though, even understanding that women in BL manga are seen as an "issue" that can't be more than superficial lest they become serious rival to the reader and it ruins the fantasy, whether that's really based on the genre community's insecurity in itself and whether that's due to lack of life experience or negative experiences.
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
rinmackie
Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
|
|||||||||
I agree with fanrandom. I, too, am an older reader who understands the difference between reality and fiction. So, to me, the problem lies not with the material itself, but with the readers. A lot of these annoying fangirls are immature and underage. They probably shouldn't be reading this stuff anyway, especially the hardcore yaoi. But their parents don't know about it, so they can't monitor what their daughters are reading. And most girls are afraid to tell their parents because they fear disapproval. So I personally don't find BL/yaoi offensive and I enjoy reading it. Not saying I'll read just anything, I do have some standards but overall, I think people should read what they like and not worry about what others might think. If someone doesn't like BL/yaoi for whatever reason, then they shouldn't read it. But don't judge all of us that do by the actions of small number of idiots. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group