Forum - View topicREVIEW: Valvrave the Liberator episodes 1-6
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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This is very, very common in Anime. Heck, even plenty of fluffy Harem Anime get dark towards the end of their seasons. |
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v1cious
 Posts: 6202 Location: Houston, TX |
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Not entirely sure where you're getting that. Not only did I spoiler tag the post I made, I reported the other guy who didn't do so. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
You only tagged the post after I told you to. No point in reporting the other guy if you are going to leave the spoiler untagged when you quote him. Either tag the spoiler when you quote his post or just don't directly quote it at all. And I remember that it was you who said something along the lines that people might want to know about the incident so there was no harm in not tagging it. That post of yours was one of the cluster that got deleted by Key way back on page two or whenever. |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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I'm a little irritated at the assertion that my problems with VVV are due to ~not understanding~ what the show is trying to be.
Sorry. This is the show who's first episode could be summed up as "THE SURPRISE IS VAMPRAVES!" and gave us EEEERRRRUUUUUEEEEEELLLLLUUUUUFFFFFFFUUUUU Not to mention that the goodwill it gained due to its subversion of the "Dead girl as motivation" trope with Shouko in the first two episodes was undone and then some by spoiler[the blatant, unforgiveable fridging of Aina later on, solely so Kyuuma would have motivation.] That last bit nearly caused me to drop the show, the spoiler[rape] was just the last straw. I've seen a lot of anime, VVV is not so amazing and unique that I'll lose out from not watching any more. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Really? That's yet another area where I couldn't possibly agree with you. Nothing in the series had told me such typical storytelling devices were going to be permanently off limits. Just that the creators were willing to play around with some of them for certain twists, but the show has also followed a fairly straightforward structural pattern in other respects. Therefore, it was interesting to see the series surprise the audience by subverting that type of motivation at the beginning, perhaps granting a degree of plot immunity to Shoko as a result, but I did not extend that protection to every single character in the cast. The show is ridiculous and amusing, but at no time have I ever believed that the named character body count would be zero. Even the basic premise alone (Gundam meets Vampires) goes against that sort of naive expectation. I couldn't even try to consider it "unforgivable" in all honesty. The fact they later chose to play things straight with a different character, for the sake of yet another person and not the protagonist, doesn't strike me as "undoing" anything. Even better shows tend to combine instances of subversion with following the established norm.
Oh, definitely. But who says people only want to watch amazing and unique things? 
Last edited by nightjuan on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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What, are you seriously trying to say that this is a good thing? And that the blatant spoiler[fridging of Aina] wasn't an example of incredibly lazy and hackish writing? Seriously? Do you even understand why that plot-point is problematic and emblematic of the entire show's problem with female characters? Seriously? |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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No, I'm trying to say that it's not surprising nor unexpected at all. Not in a show about giant robots and not in a show about vampires either. It's typical genre stuff. Why are you seemingly demanding progressive and sophisticated writing in this kind of series to begin with?
I understand why that plot point can be considered problematic, but again...why are you surprised? This isn't exactly some sort of outrageous exception within the mecha genre. We could easily use this to start a debate on the mistreatment or problematic portrayals of female characters in Gundam and many other anime series. Would it be better to completely avoid such things? Yes, and those titles that do better deserve to be praised. I have seen Moribito and Simoun for instance, both of which have much more positive portrayals of female characters, to say nothing of the fact that Utena is one of my favorite series of all time. But I'm not going to turn off my PC or TV every single time this high standard isn't met. That's where I can't agree with you.
In addition to the above...I might agree on some of the generalities, but probably not the specifics. Last edited by nightjuan on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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When it went out of its way to subvert that trope, yes I was somewhat surprised, and disappointed.
Not a defense?
Because I like shows to reach a certain minimum standard of not being completely gross.
Would you like me to discuss how Gundam AGE was one of the single most misogynistic anime in recent memory? Because I can.
Ok, good for you. I like all of those (well I found Moribito dull, but yeah) too. That also has nothing to do with me finding VVV gross.
Yet you can't seem to understand that for some of us there is a certain minimum standard that VVV completely fails to meet. I'm not obligated to continue watching a show I find abhorrent. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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I'd be surprised and more than a little annoyed if it had happened to the same character again, because that would literally undo the initial subversion, but I did not assume nobody else in the cast was ever going to suffer such a fate under different circumstances, regardless of gender. Sooner or later, people were going to die and motivate others. Hell, even "Thunder" is ostensibly motivated by the death of his non-character male friend early in the show.
No, just another observation.
Well, it's an obvious fact that classifying anything as "gross" is always a purely subjective matter. But if I might say anything at all...your "minimum standard" seems too strict. Not only many other dumb shows but also series that are much better than Valvrave in various categories would instantly fail your test as a result.
No, thank you. I'm well aware of that. But like I was saying, I believe that even those Gundam shows which do a better job than AGE might still fall below your "minimum standard" if simply killing a (female) character in order to motivate someone else is enough to trigger an intense "must-consider-drop" red flag. And that's fine, I guess. Just not how I approach fictional entertainment.
Of course. Just making my frame of reference for positive portrayals of female characters clear.
Actually, I believe that even those who don't like the show don't necessarily share all of your minimum standards, since such things are rarely universal. With respect to this specific issue, I've only been talking to you. Concerning the other matters that were previously discussed with multiple individuals, I believe I've already made my position clear. I understand, but that doesn't mean I have to agree. I simply provide a counter-argument and another alternative which the posters are free to accept or dismiss. And of course, I've never pretended that you are under the obligation to do anything. |
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Mattymattski
 Posts: 20 Location: Australia |
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spoiler[ am i alone in thinking that since Haruto isn't an enlisted soldier, all the murder he's committed since ep1 kind of outweighs the 1 count of rape he may or may not be found guilty of? Or am i just mixing up reality and CARTOONS again?]
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shamisen the great
 Posts: 658 Location: Oregon, USA |
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I just want to know what the deal is with the pink explosions.
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Ortensia1980
 Posts: 803 Location: some town near Amsterdam |
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Exactly. People tend to focus on Aina, but a lot of other people have died as well. Remember seeing all the graves? It's not as if this show suddenly decided to get dark just for a laugh. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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Blame (modern) Sunrise. No, really. They show up in lots of other (relatively) recent stuff. |
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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Dude Sunrise has been doing pink explosions going all the way back to First Gundam ITS BEEN THIRTY FOUR YEARS. YOU CAN SHUT UP ABOUT THE PINK EXPLOSIONS |
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_Archer_
Posts: 110 |
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spoiler[ I was kinda upset with how the rape scene ended up getting played out. When it happened, it opened up so many interesting possibilities, and so far all it's done is possibly show how messed up Saki and the Valrave Avatar thing are. Hopefully it gets more interesting in the next couple of episodes.]
Ah well, Valrave is still just dumb fun as always for the most part and I can't ever say it's not entertaining. The story is really bad, but this show is just so much fun to watch. |
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