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REVIEW: Valvrave the Liberator episodes 1-6


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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:15 pm Reply with quote
I'm so sorry that some of us thinking the Main Character spoiler[raping one of the female leads] is unacceptable.

There is literally no excuse for including that in the show. At all.

And yes, there were complaints about spoiler[the rape in Btooom. And in Psycho Pass, and the rape threats in My Little Monster]

Were you even paying attention to any of the dialog surrounding any of those shows?
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2633
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:41 pm Reply with quote
Agreed Fencedude, the whole concept was extremely disturbing. Especially when you have fans telling you the whole series is not meant to be taken seriously.


Spoilers for Last two Episodes


And it's not like I think spoiler[rape can never ever be used in fiction but this has got to be one of the absolute most atrocious examples of it in storytelling, when you have your main character forced to rape one of the female characters, for some badly written soap opera plot]

I also see some fans

spoiler[questioning whether it was even rape because Saki stopped fighting, which also disturbs me]


Last edited by Maidenoftheredhand on Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:41 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609, you might want to re-work those tags.

Kaioshin_Sama wrote:
Interesting that you should mention this as I remember absolutely positively zero complaints about it in that case...


Oh, there absolutely were complaints about BTOOOM!, with some people refusing to even watch the show because they'd heard (from those who had read the Manga) of you-know-what. Other people dropped the show as soon as it came up.

I think people can be overly sensitive at times. But of course, it is because people can be overly sensitive that we should tag such spoilers . . . . . .
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:59 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude:

If by excuse you mean some sort of moral justification...then there is obviously none. It's a repugnant act.

But I don't watch anime or play video games expecting to find any confirmation for my own moral compass or ethical values. I have no need for a cartoon show to tell me what's right or wrong, black or white, in the world.

If you mean a practical explanation, pure and simple...there's a couple that come to mind, pending future developments.

You might still feel disgusted or offended, but that's a matter of personal sensibility. Like I said before, you strike me as the sort of person who would automatically hate Detroit Metal City or even Wings of Honneamise just because the subject isn't treated in a way you find personally acceptable. Which is a respectable position, but not everyone has the same set of expectations for fiction nor the same reactions to this particular topic.

Maidenoftheredhand wrote:

And it's not like I think spoiler[rape can never ever be used in fiction but this has got to be one of the absolute most atrocious examples of it in storytelling, when you have your main character forced to rape one of the female characters, for some badly written soap opera plot]


If you really think this is the first -or worst- instance of such a device being used in the context of a soap opera or melodrama, which are exaggerated genres by definition that shouldn't be taken too seriously, then you'd be sorely mistaken.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:08 pm Reply with quote
nightjuan wrote:

You might still feel disgusted or offended, but that's a matter of personal sensibility. Like I said before, you strike me as the sort of person who would automatically hate Detroit Metal City or even Wings of Honneamise just because the subject isn't treated in a way you find personally acceptable. Which is a respectable position, but not everyone has the same set of expectations for fiction nor the same reactions to this particular topic.


I never watched Detroit Metal City, so I can't comment on it, but I do in fact utterly loath Wings of Honneamise PRECISELY because of this same event.

And its not like this is new, I watched it over a decade ago!

That being said, its 2013. Defend this is utterly beyond the pale.
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Yttrbio
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Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3649
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:09 pm Reply with quote
It's an event in a story. What is there to defend?
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:11 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:

I never watched Detroit Metal City, so I can't comment on it, but I do in fact utterly loath Wings of Honneamise PRECISELY because of this same event.


And I think it's one of my favorite anime films, despite that tasteless moment, so our positions cannot be reconciled.

Quote:

That being said, its 2013. Defend this is utterly beyond the pale.


If we were talking about an event with tangible consequences for real human beings, I'd agree. But we aren't.


Last edited by nightjuan on Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2633
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:12 pm Reply with quote
nightjuan wrote:

If you really think this is the first -or worst- instance of such a device being used in the context of a soap opera or melodrama, which are exaggerated genres by definition that shouldn't be taken too seriously, then you'd be sorely mistaken.


I don't see where I said it was the first. But it is one of the worst I've seen in anime.

But hey if Valvrave wants to imitate a poorly written fanfiction story or some crappy soap opera I am not interested in watching it.


If you want to finish watching Valvrave and don't have an issue with the last 2 episodes that is your prerogative. No one is telling you to stop watching it just because I think its complete crap.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:14 pm Reply with quote
Maidenoftheredhand wrote:

I don't see where I said it was the first. But it is one of the worst I've seen in anime.

But hey if Valvrave wants to imitate a poorly written fanfiction story or some crappy soap opera I am not interested in watching it.


Fair enough, though I still think there's been much worse instances in anime, let alone other mediums.

Quote:

But hey if you want to finish watching Valvrave and don't have an issue with the last 2 episodes that is your prerogative. No one is telling you to stop watching it just because I think its complete crap.


Indeed. That's why I can just agree to disagree about this whole thing.


Last edited by nightjuan on Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:14 pm Reply with quote
Here's the thing.

This is the ultimate in unfunny business.

If you are going to have your spoiler[main character rape someone] you've declared you want your story taken seriously.

Valvrave instantly ceased to be fun after this event. It cannot go back to being just a bonkers mecha show, spoiler[because its main character and putative hero is now a rapist]

You can't have it both ways! You can have spoiler[rape] in your story, but you'd damn well better take it seriously.

Oh yeah and the general removal of agency from the female character in question also rather blows.

Its almost as if you guys don't even understand why this stuff is a problem. At all.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:23 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:

If you are going to have your spoiler[main character rape someone] you've declared you want your story taken seriously.


That is your own logic, but I don't believe there is some sort of written or unwritten universal obligation at work.

Quote:

Valvrave instantly ceased to be fun after this event. It cannot go back to being just a bonkers mecha show, spoiler[because its main character and putative hero is now a rapist]


That's the case for you and those who share your perspective, but for me it just means he did something horrible and should be held responsible. It doesn't seem like he's pretending that was a good thing or something that can be easily forgiven. Even if the show didn't attempt to preach the wrongness of his actions in all four directions, I think his reaction ultimately acknowledges this.

Quote:

Oh yeah and the general removal of agency from the female character in question also rather blows.


I also happen to disagree with that interpretation, though certainly not for the reasons you might think about.

Quote:

Its almost as if you guys don't even understand why this stuff is a problem. At all.


I understand, but understanding does not necessarily lead to agreement.
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Kaioshin_Sama



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1215
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:29 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Fencedude5609, you might want to re-work those tags.

Kaioshin_Sama wrote:
Interesting that you should mention this as I remember absolutely positively zero complaints about it in that case...


Oh, there absolutely were complaints about BTOOOM!, with some people refusing to even watch the show because they'd heard (from those who had read the Manga) of you-know-what. Other people dropped the show as soon as it came up.

I think people can be overly sensitive at times. But of course, it is because people can be overly sensitive that we should tag such spoilers . . . . . .


I guess anime fans these days are just kind of soft and very easily offended nowadays or something. I'm not saying I condone that sort of thing at all, but I don't see how it's inclusion is an automatic reason to drop a show. Maybe that's just me though and I'm desensitized to a lot of stuff I see in entertainment having grown up with some of those 80's OVA's that make what we see in Valvrave look positively tame and fluffy by comparison. I mean I do watch a lot of SVU and some other pretty gruesome stuff that we call television and movies now to so that could have something to do with it.

@nightjuan: Yeah I remember the whole thing with Honnemaise and that one scene that got so many people to claim it ruined the whole movie. Sometimes I swear people just go looking for that one thing and then just pull and pull until they can claim that it's unraveled the whole fabric of something for them. Honestly there's a huge difference between a critical mind (I see this as someone that tries to examine something as it is or at best how it was probably intended) and a nitpicker whose goal is to find fault with something any way possible to try to impress everyone with their supposedly high standards (usually it just ends up making them look like they have no clear standards at all) and lately I'm finding anime fandom more and more among the latter.

I also can't help but notice how so many people react totally different to something based on who the director, writer and/or producer on something is even if it's just as "cliche" or has similar subject matter or not. Right now I feel that if you have any of Gen Urobuchi, ufoTABLE, White Fox, Makoto Shinkai, Yuki Kajiura, Type/Moon, Kenji Nakamura, Akiyuki Shinobo, SHAFT on your project your chances of being positively received overall increase exponentially. Having any one of Sunrise, Kawahara Reki, Hiroyuki Yoshino, Ichiro Okouchi, Literally anyone involved with Guilty Crown it might as well be like going into shark infested waters with an open cut, you're guaranteed to get ripped to shreds regardless of whether you upset the natural habitat or not, it's like nature taking it's course.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:47 pm Reply with quote
Kaioshin_Sama wrote:
I mean I do watch a lot of SVU and some other pretty gruesome stuff that we call television and movies now to so that could have something to do with it.


spoiler[Pretty sure SVU never shows it actually happening on screen.]

Quote:

I also can't help but notice how so many people react totally different to something based on who the director, writer and/or producer on something is even if it's just as "cliche" or has similar subject matter or not.


A) You are now jumping away from the issue at hand and lumping several things and issues together.
B) please name some other shows were this happened spoiler[that means one in which the or a main character did it, thougj many of us certainly had issues with shows were it wasn't as well]
C) context and execution matter. If people crtiticize show A for something they don't have a problem with it in show B, then maybe that means show B did it better or different
D)I am not those other people, nor is Fencedude. what other people may have thought about shows is completely irrelevant to OUR thoughts on them.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:55 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
That's the case for you and those who share your perspective, but for me it just means he did something horrible and should be held responsible. It doesn't seem like he's pretending that was a good thing or something that can be easily forgiven. Even if the show didn't attempt to preach the wrongness of his actions in all four directions, I think his reaction ultimately acknowledges this


spoiler[The main character raped someone. There are certain places you don't go and rape is one of them. Especially not the main character raping someone and still being considered the protagonist. That implies that the people who made this show consider rapists to be HEROES]
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Kaisos Erranon



Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Posts: 214
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:03 pm Reply with quote
Chagen, why do protagonists necessarily have to be heroic?
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