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Best World-Building Tournament: Minigame.


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Olliff



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 550
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:53 am Reply with quote
I am pleased with the final seed selection and nomination list.

Have toyed around with this thought for a while, but how would regular minigame participants feel if I decided to not play for the prizes this time around. They are nice and there are things I want and it motivates me to research my bracket, but I believe I may have won to many times, and it may deter people from wanting to do the minigame. That being said, I will participate regardless, however; I want feedback on what the right thing to do is, especially from Dorcas_Aurelia . I know I'm not the only person that would fall into the category since 2-3 other people have also found themselves in the top 3 fairly consistently. I am not opposed to a handicap system either. Looking back it's obvious I don't always hit with my minigame picks, too, so I am trying not to project a subtle bragging in this post. I just want whats' best for the tournament, which is the main reason why I even post on ANN; a look back at my post history will only confirm this.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:16 pm Reply with quote
I think if you want to participate but exclude yourself from a prize, then you should be able to. I've placed twice now (second both times, IIRC) but I think I'd need to at least win it before I wanted to do the same Razz

I also think that probably a good quarter to third of my posts come from the tournament. I actually haven't been watching a lot of anime in the last couple of years but the tournaments keep me active on the forums regardless (and give me a long list of stuff that I hope to get around to soon, when I'm able to stream video and watch things on Netflix and the like).
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Tris8



Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 2114
Location: Where the rain is.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:36 pm Reply with quote
That's awesome of you Olliff to be considerate and ask everybody, but I say go for the gold! If you come in first again, then ya, maybe play but not for the prizes, as Dorcas did this last tournament.
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mow123



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 339
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:19 am Reply with quote
Excluding yourself from prizes isn't the most ideal solution to keeping the minigame competitive since it is on a volunteer basis and a short term solution at best. We need some sort of handicap system.

Here's a first stab on how one could work with a point system. Each poster scores points for placing in the top 3 with the following values:

1st - 3 points
2nd - 2 points
3rd - 1 point

A handicap will be applied to each poster's starting score based on their total points:

0-1 - 0
2-4 - (-1)
5-10 - (-5)
11+ - (-10)

I know Dorcas_Aurelia keeps historical data for past rankings so this system could be implemented. The exact values for handicap qualification and score adjustment can be tweaked, but I think something along this general idea would be good. This is a long term solution, not an ad-hoc optional one that is sub-optimal. As someone who will definitely be getting a large handicap, I think it will be healthy for the longevity of the minigame.
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 2260
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:22 pm Reply with quote
I noticed that some of the nominations don't have images. So I grabbed a few and hopefully this will help out some.

Gunslinger Girl takes place in several locales in Italy and uses Italian names for characters, places, and institutions adding to the overall setting and atmosphere:
1.Florence, Italy
2. Piazza di Spagna (Spanish Steps) Rome, Italy
3.The Piazzo del Campo, Siena, Italy
4.Italian National Military Police
5.Uffizi Gallery, Florence, sitting in front of Botticelli's The Annunciation
6.Sicilian coastline, Sicily, Italy GG

Noein:

1.Shangri-La Ships
2.Miho and Atori in Shangri-La

Now and Then, Here and There:
1.The Smoke Stacks at Sunset, Japan
2.Hellywood at Sunset
3.Hellywood
4.Village of Zari-Bars

If I get a chance I'll try to hunt down some more images for other series that are missing them. As long as no one minds.
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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18138
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:31 pm Reply with quote
Just an update: I put a little time in on the match-ups last night and got as far as ranking the seeds. (And they won't be seeded exactly in vote total order, as I am familiar with all but three or four of those settings and am convinced that certain titles skated into the top vote totals more on the strength of being well-known than being a true elite contender.) I can virtually guarantee that I won't get to doing the actual pairings until this weekend, however, as I have something like 14 chapters of academic texts that I have to get read and digested between now and Saturday. Rolling Eyes

On the plus side, I only have another four weeks of this and then I don't have to do it again for another five years. (Teachers in my state have to regularly take courses to maintain their teaching licenses, you see.)


Last edited by Key on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Galap
Moderator


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2354
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:36 pm Reply with quote
So the pairings aren't random? How is it being done then? What is "ranking the seeds?"
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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18138
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:03 pm Reply with quote
For the seeds, there are four classified as #1s, four as #2s, etc. Each of the four quarters of the bracket gets one set of #1-8. Each of the seeds will get a bye in the first round and be matched up against the winner of one of the lower-level matches, so there's no way that two seeds will meet before the third round. Assuming the seeds advance, the third round matches would be pretty standard 1-8, 2-7, 3-6, 4-5 pairings just like it's done in tennis or NCAA basketball tourneys.

The first round pairings involve everyone that got a score between 3 and 6.9 in the Nominations phase. For the most part I'll pair towards the middle (the 5s and 6s will get paired with 3s, the 4s will largely get paired against each other), but I may force a couple of pairings that I think are particularly interesting ones.

Now, what quarter of the bracket each pairing gets assigned to is totally random, as is how the first-round matches get paired with seeds, save that I'll tweak things to prevent two representatives from the same franchise from being in the same quarter.
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Olliff



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 550
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:39 am Reply with quote
Is there a rationale to pair towards the middle based on nominations for the non-seeds while the seeds are placed in a more traditional bracket placement where the strong meets the weak? It can certainly make the early picks more challenging to predict.

I've also noticed your adjustments to the seed strength based on your perceived merits, and it is frightening accurate. Key's level of general anime knowledge and ability to rank is quite impressive; I think if he adopted a more pragmatic or conservative approach to his mini game he would be unstoppable since it always seems like he knows where he is being too optimistic. The most commonly happens with nominations with high merits, but low exposure or regard/reputation, such as that Gatchaman team. Regard is the how positively or negatively the general voting community on ANN perceives a series and can have a huge impact on voting results. Also arguments can make a big impact voting especially for shows with strong merits but low exposure if supported by the right people or with solid rationale early enough in the process. Sometimes arguments can even have an undue impact and catapult someone previously somewhat unknown further than potentially deserved like Lt. Yamamoto from Nadesico in the Best Supporting Character Tournament when pretty much no one expected that to happen.

That being said, ANN is more probably one of the most well informed forums and tends value based on merits much more strongly and sometimes even sometime rails against certain popular shows/characters that would probably dominate on other forums like MAL.

I am a little disappointed that we only managed to scrounge up 96. There were definitely enough worthy nominations available. The bottleneck is the stringent write-up requirements, which I understand the rationale for including even if though they were previously not required. I think we can maybe do an experiment where we keep the requirement for the first 96 and if we need the boost to get to the full roster we drop it. Since a much smaller percentage would be without guides, volunteers could knock out the most deserving ones and I don't think it would be unbearable for some of the borderline cases not to have one like what's been true in the past. The tournament bracket format is designed ideally for certain numbers, such as 64 or 128, and we should put in instruments to help us get there instead of settling for 96 unless there isn't anything worth including even without the writeup requirement which seems like its rarely the case. Perhaps, a middle ground could be reached where the last push for nominations would need to require a one line description and rationale, and worthier ones nominated could be fleshed out by volunteers.

Critiques aside, overall, I greatly appreciate the efforts of both Key, Dorcas_Aurelia, and occasionally ccdx. You all are doing a great job, and these thread type is a home run success. I think it will remain niche with the stringent voting and nomination requirements, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I think it could be tweaked if needed.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4070
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:22 am Reply with quote
Olliff wrote:

I am a little disappointed that we only managed to scrounge up 96. There were definitely enough worthy nominations available. The bottleneck is the stringent write-up requirements, which I understand the rationale for including even if though they were previously not required.


Yes, there were more titles I had in mind but there were difficulties in framing the nomination, plus the fact that I would have to get other people to vote for it. I wanted to see more space opera in the list as it's a subgenre that anime has a lot of luck with in making a rich universe but it's all space, always space so there's a lot of work in differentiating the titles. I probably could have gotten away with Heroic Age {Greek myths in space!} but Nadesico, Captain Tylor or Lost Universe? May as well stick with Macross.

Perhaps my problem was that I looked at this contest as a question of "Which series had the best developed reality?" which incorporates quite a few things, from setting to characters to their role in the world and if they fit right {a number of series with seeded votes has this problem, it's why I didn't vote for any.} instead of the basic "Which series has the best setting?".
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Tris8



Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 2114
Location: Where the rain is.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:48 am Reply with quote
Olliff wrote:
I am a little disappointed that we only managed to scrounge up 96. There were definitely enough worthy nominations available.
It is too bad. There were about half a dozen other nominations I was thinking of doing, but summer classes kept me unholily busy. On the other hand, I don't think any big hitters or even medium-hitters were left out of the final list. I'm pretty happy with the line-up.

And can't wait til the matches are ready! Dorcas_Aurelia, will you do what you did last time and include your predictions in the minigame?
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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18138
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:37 am Reply with quote
After many delays I've finally found the time to sit down and get the bracket done. It's now available on the OP, and this time it has links to all of the in-thread write-ups for each setting.

Have fun picking this one for minigame entries, folks, as I expect quite a few more upsets this time around. I have way less confidence in the strength of the seeds compared to last time and don't think it's unreasonable that a couple of first-rounders could crack into the fourth round this time. But where will the upsets be?

Anyway, earliest projected start date is the 24th, and I think it will more likely be October 1st (since the last of my two college classes finishes on the 23rd), so you have at least couple of weeks to mull over the minigame. I'd definitely have it in by the evening of the 23rd just to be safe.
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farichada



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 303
Location: Wisconsin, USA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:45 am Reply with quote
Since I like enabling lazy people, here are all the links that can be found on the end of the first page of this thread saving the few seconds it takes to click the link then scroll all the way down to the bottom of the post. And to help the people with ADHD that didn't read the whole post:


The bracket is now complete, and it's not due to nearly the end of the month. Click the links below for the bracket and rules.



Key wrote:

Official Tournament Bracket
Click here for an Excel spreadsheet of the final tournament bracket. This bracket can also be used for the minigame. (See here for details on that.)



I'm ready to repeat my same early strong performance as last minus the embarrassing crash at the end where I threw so hard from first that I barely ended up in the middle of the pack. I hope there are more new blood that enters the minigame too. It's shame a site as popular as ANN can only muster up less than 20 to 30 participants when the prizes total $250 each tournament. Is the fact that there is effort and skill involved the factor or does the fact its in the forum cause less traffic. If ANN could promote it even with a public interest piece that would be the bee's knees.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Doing my mini-game provided a very nice diversion from work on my lunchbreak. Really not sure about this one in comparison to the last but it will still be fun regardless.
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farichada



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 303
Location: Wisconsin, USA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:48 pm Reply with quote
Key, why did you have to make Group D so tricky to predict? I think part of the problem is that Ghost in Shell world was nominated so late and didn't get many nominations. To complicate things further, it faces the Spice and Wolf setting in the second round, which I think is very close in terms of strength, especially when you consider the focus of S&W on character development and its economic shenanigans over it sometime generic medieval fantasy town settings. I have mixed feelings on trying to place the LoGH world; the complexity is off the charts and this fictional history is so deep and intertwined between the different groups it sometimes feels like History Channel in space. The series is always seems to be held in high regard, but obscure or not worthy enough to have ever won a group.
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