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NEWS: Funimation Enforces Intellectual Property Rights


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halo



Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 354
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:26 am Reply with quote
jezplainme wrote:
The last 3 or so episodes that did get fansubbed, episodes 17-19 I believe, were so dark, you could hard see anything a good amount of time. It is instances like these that can ruin an anime. How do I know if an anime will not become utter pure crap because the studio used up most of it's allocated budget within the first half of the show.


If I understand you correctly, your saying you didn't like these episodes because the color was too dark in the episode? I haven't seen much of the show and certainly not those episodes, but it's quite possible that it's not the animation but the fact that the video was a compressed captured from a TV broadcast then recompressed when adding the subtitles. This process destroys a lot of the video quality most of the time, especialy in dark scenes that otherwise would look fine.
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Fenrir



Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 369
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:06 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
I love when people complain about the cost of anime in America, when Japanese fans have to pay far more for far less. The sense of entitlement is amusing. Thirty dollars? ZOMG!

If you can't afford it, then you save until you can. You do without until you can obtain what you want. It isn't up to the domestic anime market to bring you free anime just so you can sort through it and throw out shows you're only going to watch once, anyway. Certainly it is up to you how much mileage you get out of a DVD once you've bought it, but who buys a DVD and watches it just once? I think I'd complain too if I only watched a DVD once, but I've also heard of this thing called RENTING.


Ok I haven't red the whole thread but let me put it this way. I'm in Japan right now and Japanese fans do not have to pay more. Sometimes older titles do cost more. However now the average cost of an anime dvd is about the same as it is in the states. For example the new Studio Ghibli came out for 30 dollars. and I have seen others come out for the same price. So yes some stuff is more expensive here but some stuff is cheaper and better and the dvds now have about 4-5 eps per dvd. Some of the dvds do cost about 4000yen but when every us dollar is worth about 120 yen you can see how close the prices really are. Just felt like enlighting people but yes there are some aniem that are very expensive then again there are some in the states such as the 70 dollar special edition I saw of Jin Roh the wolf brigade many of these expensive animes are also special editiosn etc. There is also a lot of discout anime available for some older titled so the japanese pay far less than we do sometimes.
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Sam-I-Am



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 121
Location: Midwest US
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:18 am Reply with quote
tempest wrote:
Andromeda wrote:
No, actually, it's not. If I draw a picture of Sailor Moon, I don't have to pay ANYBODY just for the ability to draw it - and the copyright on the art piece itself is mine, pretty much (although the trademark is not). It's only illegal if you make a profit off of it, and only possibly worth bothering over if you're selling prints or selling the originals for a lot of money.


I believe distribution of fanart, if it isn't parody/satire, even if it's for free (ie on your website) can be considered illegal.

The only instances I know of where the copyright and trademark owners have taken offense to fanart have been instances where they've felt that the fanart in question was harmful to the integrity of their property. Typically when it was pornographic, lewd or etc...

-t


To paraphrase John Houseman in 'The Paper Chase', we need to 'think like a lawyer' here. Any version of a copyrighted or trademarked image is the property of the owner, and fanart does not need to be pornographic for them to consider it harmful. An example I'm somewhat familiar with has to do with putting Disney characters on children's birthday cakes. If you go to the local bakery, order a cake for your child's party, and have them put Mickey Mouse's picture on it (at no extra charge), and Disney finds out, their lawyers will come down on you and the bakery like a ton of bricks. Their position is that they must practice zero tolerance, or they open themselves the creation of a definition of allowable/not allowable dilution of copyright, which would then be a line that would need to be constantly redefined in court, at high hourly rates. By prosecuting *all* minor unpermitted use of the images, they protect their ability to prosecute all major unpermitted use. About the only ameliorating factors are if you're charging money and how widely they are distributed. Internet posting is hard to consider as anything other than wide distribution, and asking for donations can be considered profiting.

The zero tolerance doctrine is most likely the reason why the unreleased titles were included in the C&D letter. Since they wanted the fansubbers to stop providing access to the company's released titles, they had to also name the unreleased titles that site was featuring, or risk creating a loophole that the fansubbers could use to continue posting the unreleased titles.

This is probably the wave of the future, folks. As anime companies get stronger, they will be cracking down harder and harder on groups they perceive as hurting their profits, as a matter of self-protection. The only thing that stops them from going after all such sites is the simple economics of cost of action vs. probable gain, compounded by the difficulties presented by the international and anonymous nature of the Internet. In this instance, the fansubbers, by keeping released titles online, had crossed the line from promotion to competition.

One point that seems to be overlooked by many in this discussion is that there are a lot of computers in Japan, and a large number of people who are quite clever about using them. If the creators of anime truly thought that it should be free art, accessible to all, they would have no problems posting it on the Web themselves. Instead, they sell it to other companies, who pay a lot of money in hopes of charging others for the privilege of viewing it. Although intellectual property is a more difficult concept to understand than owning a physical object, the fact remains that 'these colored shapes moving in this fashion, accompanied by these sounds' is just as ownable as a car. That an anime is easier to duplicate than a car is irrelevant.

I'll stop here, before I repeat the 'downloads are theft' rant we've all seen posted before.
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Andromeda



Joined: 28 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:40 am Reply with quote
Sam-I-Am wrote:

One point that seems to be overlooked by many in this discussion is that there are a lot of computers in Japan, and a large number of people who are quite clever about using them. If the creators of anime truly thought that it should be free art, accessible to all, they would have no problems posting it on the Web themselves. Instead, they sell it to other companies, who pay a lot of money in hopes of charging others for the privilege of viewing it. Although intellectual property is a more difficult concept to understand than owning a physical object, the fact remains that 'these colored shapes moving in this fashion, accompanied by these sounds' is just as ownable as a car. That an anime is easier to duplicate than a car is irrelevant.


You know, I was just thinking about bringing up the fact that the Japanese have just as easy access as we do to fansubs. Smile You mind-reader, you!

Oh, and my Inner Editer is coming out...

Deacon Blues wrote:
Sorry, they still disbanded irregardless of the fact.


I think you mean "regardless"?

Jezplainme wrote:
In the end, I support anime and the animators who started the whole thing, but the domestic distributors don't get anything.


You realize that if enough people didn't buy domestic releases, the companies would stop licensing them, or demand lower fees to license them, and that the animators and creators would lose all or part of the current licensing fees, right?

Quote:
There's an anime I am waiting for, usually in a complete format. I hate buying anime in separate cases, since it clogs spaces and can get lost. The anime is Matantei Loki or Mythical Detective Loki. I have yet to find it in complete form, and so far, I believe only the first volume has been released in North America.



...so, what you're saying is, you lack the patience to wait a few extra months for the thinpak set? Because ADV at least is down to releasing thinpaks pretty darn fast for a lot of titles. Eva platinum's already got a thinkpak, for instance. Hell, Chrono Crusade's already got a thinkpak!

However, I suppose I shouldn't nitpick. At least you do indeed buy the DVDs of the shows you enjoy.


-Andromeda
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:04 am Reply with quote
Quote:

Just to make it clear (not trying to get in on the bashing/counter-bashing/side-bashing/whatever-bashing-it-is-that's-currently-going-on), but R1 is North America. R2 is Japan (and Europe, IIRC).


Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Yes, I was refering to the R2 DVDs. I wouldn't buy the US DVDs regardless, because I don't want to pay for the dubs and all the rest of that junk. Basically, I don't make use of the American companies' products, so I don't want them to get any of my money, nor do I feel that I owe them any of it. The only people I feel any debt to are the Japanese companies involved.

Quote:

No, actually, it's not. If I draw a picture of Sailor Moon, I don't have to pay ANYBODY just for the ability to draw it - and the copyright on the art piece itself is mine, pretty much (although the trademark is not). It's only illegal if you make a profit off of it, and only possibly worth bothering over if you're selling prints or selling the originals for a lot of money.


Wrong. Japanese companies are notoriously lax about enforcing their own copywrites, and most US companies choose not to prosecute if there's no profit involved, but they CAN C&D you simply for freely distributing fanart of their characters, IF they choose to do so. I've had that done to a friend of mine in the past (by Time Warner). It just isn't usually worth the effort.

You do have the copywrite on the work itself, they couldn't use your drawing, for example, but they still own the character that you drew, so you can't have it either. There is some wiggle room as far as parody goes though.

Quote:

As for TV airings being somehow "the same thing" as fansubs(which I saw either stated or implied at least once or twice in here)... no. TV has advertising, which the advertisers pay for, and the station buys rights to air it, and then airs it at certain times and dates. Then maybe someone who owns or buys the license to produce home video or DVD copies will do that, and you'd buy a copy from them so you could watch it any time you wanted. Fansubs, however, can be watched at anytime, and nobody paid for that right. Additionally, a person must own a TV set and usually, they must pay for the TV service (unless it's public access or something) in order to view it. Don't go jumping on me for this comment, either, because I'm just stating a fact, and asking that people not make comparisons that are not accurate. Wink


Covered that, Tivo. No comercials, watch it at a time and date of your choosing, as many times as you want. If you get a Phillips DVD recorder at Best Buy you can even make a DVD of the show. You also need hardware and connections to get fansubs, so that stuff filters out of the equation.

About Basikisk, btw, I was considering buying a few DVDs of it for my friend that really wanted to finish seeing it as a Christmas present. It truly shocked me to discover that the series wasn't even out here yet. I'd fully expected at least the second DVD by now. The US industry is worse at this than I'd thought.
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Dejiko



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:26 am Reply with quote
Ohoni wrote:
About Basikisk, btw, I was considering buying a few DVDs of it for my friend that really wanted to finish seeing it as a Christmas present. It truly shocked me to discover that the series wasn't even out here yet. I'd fully expected at least the second DVD by now. The US industry is worse at this than I'd thought.

In a lot of cases, this can be explained by market protectionism. There's a lot of Japanese fans who'd gladly get their hands on cheap R1 DVD's with higher episode counts. By creating a gap between the R1 and R2 release, the Japanese companies ensure that the R1 release won't cut into their profits too much.
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Andromeda



Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:51 am Reply with quote
Ohoni wrote:


Quote:

No, actually, it's not. If I draw a picture of Sailor Moon, I don't have to pay ANYBODY just for the ability to draw it - and the copyright on the art piece itself is mine, pretty much (although the trademark is not). It's only illegal if you make a profit off of it, and only possibly worth bothering over if you're selling prints or selling the originals for a lot of money.


Wrong. Japanese companies are notoriously lax about enforcing their own copywrites, and most US companies choose not to prosecute if there's no profit involved, but they CAN C&D you simply for freely distributing fanart of their characters, IF they choose to do so. I've had that done to a friend of mine in the past (by Time Warner). It just isn't usually worth the effort.


Please read the OTHER posts on a matter before you reply. Tempest and one other poster already corrected me on this matter.

Quote:

You do have the copywrite on the work itself, they couldn't use your drawing, for example, but they still own the character that you drew, so you can't have it either. There is some wiggle room as far as parody goes though.


I think that may have been where my art teacher confused me.

Quote:
Quote:

As for TV airings being somehow "the same thing" as fansubs(which I saw either stated or implied at least once or twice in here)... no. TV has advertising, which the advertisers pay for, and the station buys rights to air it, and then airs it at certain times and dates. Then maybe someone who owns or buys the license to produce home video or DVD copies will do that, and you'd buy a copy from them so you could watch it any time you wanted. Fansubs, however, can be watched at anytime, and nobody paid for that right. Additionally, a person must own a TV set and usually, they must pay for the TV service (unless it's public access or something) in order to view it. Don't go jumping on me for this comment, either, because I'm just stating a fact, and asking that people not make comparisons that are not accurate. Wink


Covered that, Tivo. No comercials, watch it at a time and date of your choosing, as many times as you want.


However, you have to PAY for the TiVo service and the the TiVo itself. Plus, the channels it carries still have to pay to air the shows. It's still not "free".

Quote:

If you get a Phillips DVD recorder at Best Buy you can even make a DVD of the show. You also need hardware and connections to get fansubs, so that stuff filters out of the equation.


As I also previously stated in response to another poster: making a recording for PERSONAL use (such as taping a program to watch later) is not considered a punishable offense in the US (there was some sort of court decision on this, when VCRs started going into their heyday, but I'm not sure when it happened). It's when you start selling or redistributing said recording that it gets into illegal territory.


-Andromeda
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PantsGoblin
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:04 am Reply with quote
Fenrir wrote:
Ok I haven't red the whole thread but let me put it this way. I'm in Japan right now and Japanese fans do not have to pay more. Sometimes older titles do cost more. However now the average cost of an anime dvd is about the same as it is in the states. For example the new Studio Ghibli came out for 30 dollars. and I have seen others come out for the same price. So yes some stuff is more expensive here but some stuff is cheaper and better and the dvds now have about 4-5 eps per dvd. Some of the dvds do cost about 4000yen but when every us dollar is worth about 120 yen you can see how close the prices really are. Just felt like enlighting people but yes there are some aniem that are very expensive then again there are some in the states such as the 70 dollar special edition I saw of Jin Roh the wolf brigade many of these expensive animes are also special editiosn etc. There is also a lot of discout anime available for some older titled so the japanese pay far less than we do sometimes.


Maybe I wasn't going to the right stores but that was not how it was when I was in Japan two months ago. The average cost of most titles was around 5000-6000 yen. And abosolutely none of the DVDs I saw had 5 episodes and I think I saw one that had 4. It was usually 2 or 3 and even 1 in some cases. The stores I went to were big name chains (Animate and Gamers mainly), so maybe they just overprice their DVDs, I don't know. Book off sold some DVD's at a pretty good price (most around 2000-3000 yen), they were all used though.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:24 am Reply with quote
Quote:

In a lot of cases, this can be explained by market protectionism. There's a lot of Japanese fans who'd gladly get their hands on cheap R1 DVD's with higher episode counts. By creating a gap between the R1 and R2 release, the Japanese companies ensure that the R1 release won't cut into their profits too much.


Yeah, and yet that doesn't help me get my friend any Basilisk for Christmas now does it? If the US companies are going to take the fansubs out of our hands, the very least they can be expected to do is put the ability to buy their products in them.

Quote:

Please read the OTHER posts on a matter before you reply. Tempest and one other poster already corrected me on this matter.


I was expounding. I considered removing this part after reading the other responses, but thought that my statements still brought a little something extra to the table, so I left it.

Quote:

However, you have to PAY for the TiVo service and the the TiVo itself. Plus, the channels it carries still have to pay to air the shows. It's still not "free".


What I pay is truly immaterial. I've spent more on my computer than most people have spent on their Tivo. The only reason price enters into things is on the basis that the money I spend somehow ends up, in some small portion, in the hands of the people that made the show in the first place. I'll admit that a fraction of my cable bill, perhaps thousandths of a penny on the dollar, does indeed go to the people that make the anime that airs on TV, but any money spent on a Tivo or the Tivo service goes to Tivo, they don't spread the wealth on that one.

Quote:
As I also previously stated in response to another poster: making a recording for PERSONAL use (such as taping a program to watch later) is not considered a punishable offense in the US (there was some sort of court decision on this, when VCRs started going into their heyday, but I'm not sure when it happened). It's when you start selling or redistributing said recording that it gets into illegal territory.


I never download anime for anything other than personal use.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:47 am Reply with quote
Ohoni wrote:

I never download anime for anything other than personal use.
Yeah the neighbourhood joy riders are the same. They never steal peoples cars for anything other than their own personal use too. Wink
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Starwind Amada



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:35 am Reply with quote
Ohoni wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Yes, I was refering to the R2 DVDs. I wouldn't buy the US DVDs regardless, because I don't want to pay for the dubs and all the rest of that junk.


Here we go again. It's not junk, Ohoni. You just don't like it. Period. Other people (such as myself) love dubs and extra features (such as audio commentaries) and it is insulting when you say what we enjoy is junk. Remember, that's your OPINION, not a fact, but I guess I shouldn't expect less from you.

Also, you may be supporting a dub when you buy an R1 DVD, however, you're also supporting the series' release in the US. The more people who buy the DVDs, the more evidence there is that the series is doing well. Just ignore the dub if you don't like dubs and watch the JAPANESE TRACK WITH ENGLISH SUBTITLES instead of stealing from the creators you claim to love and watching a crappy mpeg file on your laptop. It's not too hard. At least, not for the rest of us.

Ohoni wrote:
About Basikisk, btw, I was considering buying a few DVDs of it for my friend that really wanted to finish seeing it as a Christmas present. It truly shocked me to discover that the series wasn't even out here yet. I'd fully expected at least the second DVD by now. The US industry is worse at this than I'd thought.


No it isn't. You just wanted the series to be out by now because you're a self-obsessed fanboy. FUNimation isn't going to cater only to you because you want some series to be licensed and on store shelves when YOU want it.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:55 am Reply with quote
Andromeda wrote:
However, you have to PAY for the TiVo service and the the TiVo itself. Plus, the channels it carries still have to pay to air the shows. It's still not "free".


Paying Tivo does not equate to paying for anime. Tivo is still better than bootlegs & fansubs though, because the creators are getting some money from the cable operator.

That's about the same as the arguement that "I pay for my anime by paying my internet bill."

Commercialless Tivo is a bad thing for the broadcast industry, but its something that they'll need to figure out how to deal with.

IMHO the eventuall option is VOD, whether online or by Cable / Satellite TV. Online VOD is essentially what many people in this thread have been saying the anime companies should offer.

Many of them point to the music industry and say "why don't anime companies do that" I'd pay a couple dollars for an anime download.

But keep in mind, a song costs $1 to $2 online. That's a 3~5 minute song. Buying 10 or so of these costs just as much as full CD, but people think its great because they don't want all the songs from the CD. But when it comes to anime, you want all the episodes. So if 3~5 minutes of audio costs $2, we could verywell expect 22 minutes of video to cost at least $8, if not more since video takes up much mroe bandwdith per minute.

But the market has made it clear that it wants sub $5 prices.

Fortunately what we're seing in most places are sub $5 prices, but whether or not that price will remain the norm if/when the service becomes widely available remains to be seen.

-t
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Steroid



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:58 am Reply with quote
Starwind Amada wrote:
Here we go again. It's not junk, Ohoni. You just don't like it. Period. Other people (such as myself) love dubs and extra features (such as audio commentaries) and it is insulting when you say what we enjoy is junk. Remember, that's your OPINION, not a fact, but I guess I shouldn't expect less from you.

No it isn't. You just wanted the series to be out by now because you're a self-obsessed fanboy. FUNimation isn't going to cater only to you because you want some series to be licensed and on store shelves when YOU want it.

See, this is what I perceive as the hypocricy of the supporters of the status quo in anime distribution. Let me demonstrate by turning this around:

"Other people (such as myself) love having the series relased promptly, and it is insulting when you say what we enjoy is the mark of being a self-obsessed fanboy. Remember, that's your OPINION, not a fact, but I guess I shouldn't expect less from you."

"You just want the series to be dubbed because you're a simpleton who can't be bothered to read. Funimation shouldn't cater only to you because you want some series to be dubbed and don't care how long it takes to do it."

See, there's no right or wrong here, it's just that you want one thing and we want another. Only we can get what we want elsewhere and you can't, so you have to make that a crime.
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sakura_zukamori



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:48 am Reply with quote
This is my first post on ANN and I just wanted to give my view on the Intellectual Property Rights topic. As a little background I have been an anime fan for almost two decades (17 years, I am currently 19 - my mom was a fan so I started watching young) and have a collection that includes 1300+ DVDs and 2000+ VHS, in addition too several thousand manga (English, Japanese, and even some manwha). As someone who has watched a lot of fansubs and conversely purchased the series, I just wanted to give my view on everything.

I am a huge fan of Basilisk, which apparently has been licensed by Funimation. I also religiously watched Speed Grapher and Trinity Blood via the Shinsen-Subs fansubs. In the case of Speed Grapher and Trinity Blood I was fortunate to see both series in their entirety; however, in the case of Basilisk I have been frozen at episode 19 (since I can understand Japanese I eventually just broke down and watched raw episodes).

In any case though, I think after a certain point fansub groups have the right to finish a series not only for the fans, but as a form of closure. I mean for people who kept up with Basilisk for 19 episodes to deny them there is absolutely cruel because now they must wait around eighteen months to see the final few episodes. Now as a hardcore fan of the series I will buy the DVD to add to my already expansive collection, but on the same note I ultimately would only want the last one or two DVDs to find out the ending to the show. If you are going to license a series and harp at fansub groups, then there should actively be an effort to advertise and put out the series in a reasonable amount of time. If you take shows such as Detective Conan or Naruto, the fansubs for these shows are still going on as they have every right to be. In the case of anime fansub group that stayed even remotely up to date with such expansive shows, it would be criminal to ask them to stop (i.e. Detective Conan is 400+ episodes). So in those cases or any case where more than 75% of the show has been subbed just let the groups finish it. I mean in the case of Solty Rei, it is still early enough to pull the subs since people are interested in it and have not yet become very attached to the characters.

I think that what the anime distribution companies should do is say no fansubs after they release the corresponding DVDs or at the least after they license lets say a season of a show. In the case of Detective Conan, this will pull subs for the first few seasons but allow subs for the later episodes since Funimation is still negotiating for those rights. I think this would be a good solution because it would allow fansubs to continue what they are doing, and they would only be stopped once companies such as Funimation and ADV actually have a marketable product (i.e. the readily available episodes and so forth).

With the current age of internet and technology fansubs are a God sent because they almost eliminate the gap between US and Japanese anime releases. Otherwise anime fans in the US would gain interest in a show, read episode summaries, frequent websites for the show, read other view of the show, and by the time it was released after being licensed it would lose a lot of its appeal. I mean for the time it takes to license and fully put out a show, you can do the old school thing and order VHS with like three episodes once a month and finish watching the show within a year. It is kind of sad when air mail VHS in the 80s from Japan to the US can successfully allow an anime fan to complete a show faster than distribution companies within the same country.

I hope that you guys can make sense of my random tirade and see what I am trying to express. I am sure that even if Funimation did not throw a hissy fit, you all, as true otaku would have gone out to purchase the series that you enjoy (no matter how the funds were obtained). Hopefully, a compromise between the two entities can be reached so that way threads such as this never creep up again.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:09 pm Reply with quote
Andromeda wrote:

Oh, and my Inner Editer is coming out...


I think you mean "inner editor".
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