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NEWS: Funimation Enforces Intellectual Property Rights


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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7493
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:35 pm Reply with quote
sakura_zukamori wrote:
I think after a certain point fansub groups have the right to finish a series

Sorry.. who gives them this right?
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I mean for people who kept up with Basilisk for 19 episodes to deny them there is absolutely cruel because now they must wait around eighteen months to see the final few episodes.

Noone made them watch those 19 episodes, the only person to blame is themselves for not waiting in the frist place.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:46 pm Reply with quote
Quote:


This is why it's so hard to have a reasonable dialog, people always equate fansubs to completely unrealated and considerably worse things.

"Joyriding" for example is a theft of property. IF someone takes a car for joyriding, the person who owned it won't be able to use it until (if) it's recovered, and best case scenario it will be returned with aditional miles on it, and likely with less gas and more wear on it than when it was taken. The one thing Fansubbing NEVER involves is the removal or depreciation of the original source material, so relatinging it to any form of theft that involves those things is as pointless as comparing shoplifting to violent bank heists.

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Here we go again. It's not junk, Ohoni. You just don't like it. Period. Other people (such as myself) love dubs and extra features (such as audio commentaries) and it is insulting when you say what we enjoy is junk. Remember, that's your OPINION, not a fact, but I guess I shouldn't expect less from you.


As you say, it's in the eye of the beholder. To me it's junk, and we were talking about what I should buy, so if I think it's junk then it's junk for the purposes of that discussion. It has nothing to do with you or your choices, pay attention.

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Also, you may be supporting a dub when you buy an R1 DVD, however, you're also supporting the series' release in the US. The more people who buy the DVDs, the more evidence there is that the series is doing well. Just ignore the dub if you don't like dubs and watch the JAPANESE TRACK WITH ENGLISH SUBTITLES instead of stealing from the creators you claim to love and watching a crappy mpeg file on your laptop. It's not too hard. At least, not for the rest of us.


I don't much care about supporting a series' release in the US. That really doesn't impact me much, except for the occasional game that gets brought over as a result. As I say, I really do wish that I could support the Japanese companies more than I do, but the surcharge on that support is far too high. I don't see why I should be expected to pay $24.50 to people who I don't care about in the least, just so that the people that produce the work I do like can get the other fifty cents.

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No it isn't. You just wanted the series to be out by now because you're a self-obsessed fanboy. FUNimation isn't going to cater only to you because you want some series to be licensed and on store shelves when YOU want it.


Hey, it's their loss, not mine.

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But keep in mind, a song costs $1 to $2 online. That's a 3~5 minute song. Buying 10 or so of these costs just as much as full CD, but people think its great because they don't want all the songs from the CD. But when it comes to anime, you want all the episodes. So if 3~5 minutes of audio costs $2, we could verywell expect 22 minutes of video to cost at least $8, if not more since video takes up much mroe bandwdith per minute.


That seems ridiculous, given that most songs are listened to many more times than most videos are, and the bandwidth costs shouldn't be too high, since fansubs are currently free. If they have to charge that high for bandwidth then they're doing something VERY wrong.

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Andromeda wrote:

Oh, and my Inner Editer is coming out...


I think you mean "inner editor".


I took that as conscious irony.
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sakura_zukamori



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
Location: New York, NY
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:05 pm Reply with quote
In regards to who gives them this right, it is by no means a legal right. I meant that in principle, they should be allowed to finish the series. For example, Funimation is currently licensing and releasing Naruto and yet that has not ended the groups that fansub Naruto. Based on your statement of it is the person's fault for not waiting, I would have to disagree.

I mean if that is the case, then if Naruto fansubbing were to stop and people had to wait for it; according to your definition it would be their fault for watching the first 160+ episodes and not waiting for it. You cannot blame an anime fan for not waiting especially when thanks to magazines such as Newtype many new shows are hyped up only to appear here years later (i.e. Gundam Seed and Gundam Seed Destiny), they have been on Newtype USA well before the introduction of each show respectively.

What I am saying is that fansub groups display a lot of various program talents and skills whenever they put out a release (on a small scale it is what the distribution companies do). So at least from the perspective of acknowledging that work, which they do not get paid for if they basically complete a show within a few episodes they should be allowed to finish. They are taking the raw materials, turning it in a subbed episode of decent quality, and producing it on a constant basis with no where near as much help and/or budget. I think because of all this effort, they have the right to see a show through to the end. Plus in the long run what harm could the last quarter of a series do. It may be impatience that makes a fan want to see a show through to the end, but it is also not right to make them wait obscene periods of time to see the show.
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remember love



Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 764
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:09 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The one thing Fansubbing NEVER involves is the removal or depreciation of the original source material, so relatinging it to any form of theft that involves those things is as pointless as comparing shoplifting to violent bank heists.


It steals potential buyers of the original source where the money would have gone to(which means there stealing the customer who has the money away from the companys though no money was made for the fansubber, money was loss for the company).Theft. Ohoni you should know a little more about law seeing how you told everyone that you're in Maryland's university.
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Dexo



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 41
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:44 pm Reply with quote
...


Anime is not a right, it is a privledge, just because you are to cheap to buy anime, does not mean that that what Funi is doing is wrong...If Funi holds those licenses they have every reason in the world to stop someone else from releasing it...I wish more companies would follow...I really don't like anime "fans" who don't support their love and buy either R1 releases or the R2's...and by the way Funi's Bi-lingual DVD's are no different from the Fansubs unless for the DVD release the Japanese studio fixes visual error...
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halo



Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 354
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:30 pm Reply with quote
sakura_zukamori wrote:
In regards to who gives them this right, it is by no means a legal right. I meant that in principle, they should be allowed to finish the series. For example, Funimation is currently licensing and releasing Naruto and yet that has not ended the groups that fansub Naruto. Based on your statement of it is the person's fault for not waiting, I would have to disagree.


No, in principle they should respect the rights and wishes of those who do have legal rights.

Quote:
I mean if that is the case, then if Naruto fansubbing were to stop and people had to wait for it; according to your definition it would be their fault for watching the first 160+ episodes and not waiting for it. You cannot blame an anime fan for not waiting especially when thanks to magazines such as Newtype many new shows are hyped up only to appear here years later (i.e. Gundam Seed and Gundam Seed Destiny), they have been on Newtype USA well before the introduction of each show respectively.


Again, the purpose of fansubs isn't instant anime. It's to let people know about anime they wouldn't otherwise in hope that the exposure will lead to a license. Furthermore, if after say 100 or so episodes of Naruto you should have already figured out if it's a series you like. If it's not something you like and plan to but the why are you still watching anyway? And if you don't want to wait after reading about an anime either learn Japanese and import the DVDs, wait for bilingual R1 releases or stop reading those magazines. Do I hear anyone praising FUNimation for having FMA on American TV about a month after it ended in Japan? No, I just hear people bitching about not being able to download it.

Quote:
What I am saying is that fansub groups display a lot of various program talents and skills whenever they put out a release (on a small scale it is what the distribution companies do). So at least from the perspective of acknowledging that work, which they do not get paid for if they basically complete a show within a few episodes they should be allowed to finish. They are taking the raw materials, turning it in a subbed episode of decent quality, and producing it on a constant basis with no where near as much help and/or budget. I think because of all this effort, they have the right to see a show through to the end. Plus in the long run what harm could the last quarter of a series do. It may be impatience that makes a fan want to see a show through to the end, but it is also not right to make them wait obscene periods of time to see the show.


That's a laugh. I can digitaly subtitle something in less than a day if I have a translation. Timing, Typesetting and encoding don't really take that much skill. If I want to make sure everything is perfect, I'll take a few days as I'm pretty anal about timing. the only area where fansubs excel is the timing, and I've noticed some impovment from the US producers lately on that lately.

remember love wrote:
It steals potential buyers of the original source where the money would have gone to(which means there stealing the customer who has the money away from the companys though no money was made for the fansubber, money was loss for the company).Theft. Ohoni you should know a little more about law seeing how you told everyone that you're in Maryland's university.


I agree and would also like to add something. In todays modern anime industry, the original creators often get some say into how the English release is handled. I've seen plenty of fansubs with missed translations, horrible romaji of the names, etc. that I'm sure the creators would consider a depreciation of their work.
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sakura_zukamori



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
Location: New York, NY
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:30 pm Reply with quote
I am not sure if Dexo's comment was directed towards me or not, but if so I would just like to state that I do indeed purchase my anime. Actually I purchase quite a bit of anime seeing as my collection totals into the tens of thousands of dollars. I stated this in my initial post when I gave my view of the situation. It is not that I am too cheap to buy anime, it is just as I stated if I buy a show I want to make sure it is good all the way through before I rush to purchase it. If I find a show good such as Erementar Gerad, when the DVDs come out I will still buy them seeing as with 1300+ anime DVDs I really do not hold out funds for that. It is just seeing the show beforehand makes it easier to prioritize the order in which I want to make purchases. I am a fan of sunbs, dubs, fansubs, and so forth. I ultimately just want distributors to give fansub groups an easier time, since through them I stay relatively up to date on anime.
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sakura_zukamori



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
Location: New York, NY
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:48 pm Reply with quote
In response to what Halo said: a) I am fully versed in the Japanese language as far as reading and writing, b) I am fully aware that fansubs can lead to licensing, c) I have imported 100s of DVDs and that starts to get costly, and so forth down the line. I would not complain, if I did not try every other possible alternative and still come out experiencing problems. In addition I do not think of fansubs as instant anime, I look at them as simultaneous releases simulating a remote closeness to the Japanese anime scene. As for your skills in typesetting and so forth that is very impressive and I applaud your skills; however, many others including myself can do the same but do not have the time to. Otherwise I would download raws and do it myself, and in addition to this the translation still takes time which would show that at least that aspect of fansubbing is not laughable.

As for watching 100+ epsiodes of a show a person can like certain arcs and hate others, but in order to complete the show and have a final assessment of it you must watch the whole thing (i.e. I hate Naruto filler episodes, but I watch them to have a complete picture of the show).

I could care less about downloading stuff if the DVDs were available, and to acknowledge Funimation what they did with FMA was impressive with the one month gap. Considering I know a lot of the voice actors (i.e. Vic Mignogna, Mike McFarland, Caitlin Glass, Aaron Dismuke, Travis, and so forth) I know how much hard work they put into the show. FMA would be an example of an earnest attempt to bridge the time gap because of how fast it hit Cartoon Network after it ended, but not all shows experience such treatment (plus Toshifumi Yoshida - FMA producer, seems like a very flexible person from what I have heard).

As for how English release of the series is handled it would be better to tell the fans why a show is not coming out as fast as expected instead of doing it all behind the scenes. So at least this way they know every effort is being made to put it out.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:15 am Reply with quote
Quote:
It steals potential buyers of the original source where the money would have gone to


Potential customers are nothing. You can't even pretend that they exist. You could as easilly say that Funimation is stealing potential custmers from themselves by hassleing funsubbers and coming off like jerks, it's pointless. Besides, customers are people, you can't own people (in the US at least), so it's impossible to steal them, "imaginary future customers" or otherwise.

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Ohoni you should know a little more about law seeing how you told everyone that you're in Maryland's university.


Graduated, and it's not a law school, it's a general university.

And again, there are no laws on the books anywhere in America pertaining to the theft of people.

Quote:

Anime is not a right, it is a privledge, just because you are to cheap to buy anime, does not mean that that what Funi is doing is wrong.


Having customers is not a right, it's a privledge. You have to earn their patronage by providing the product they want in a timely, quality, and affordable manner.

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Again, the purpose of fansubs isn't instant anime. It's to let people know about anime they wouldn't otherwise in hope that the exposure will lead to a license.


That's quaint.

No, the purpose of fansubbing is so that people in countries outside of Japan can watch anime as it aires in Japan.

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Furthermore, if after say 100 or so episodes of Naruto you should have already figured out if it's a series you like.


I did, and I still like it, every week (well, not so much during the current filler, but I will again once they go back to the manga material in the spring). I watched every episode of the show in fansub form, and I'm watching it again on CN now. I sure as hell don't want to have to wait four years for the CN run to catch back up to where I am on the anime right now before I see the next episode.

Quote:
Do I hear anyone praising FUNimation for having FMA on American TV about a month after it ended in Japan? No, I just hear people bitching about not being able to download it.


And yet it's been over a year since the series ended in Japan and it still hasn't ended over here. A company gets praise from ME when the episodes come out over here within weeks of airing over there. Anything less is just being a slacker about it.

Quote:

That's a laugh. I can digitaly subtitle something in less than a day if I have a translation. Timing, Typesetting and encoding don't really take that much skill. If I want to make sure everything is perfect, I'll take a few days as I'm pretty anal about timing. the only area where fansubs excel is the timing, and I've noticed some impovment from the US producers lately on that lately.


Yeah, it is fairly easy, and yet US companies can't seem to do it in less than six months. Odd.

Quote:
I've seen plenty of fansubs with missed translations, horrible romaji of the names, etc. that I'm sure the creators would consider a depreciation of their work.


I've seen that too, but usually in lower quality or rushed fansubs. The better groups don't do that, except in cases such as Gundam SEED, in which characters had "weird" names that were hard to get proper romanji names for until they were officially released, at which point corrections were made. That's the best an outsider can hope to do, and they STILL managed to get it right before the US company put it out.

Quote:
So where's my Advent Children? Fans can't wait forever.


It's been on the Internet for months now.
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Tempest
I Run this place.
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Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:22 am Reply with quote
No one's listening to each other any more, just looking for ways toprove the other person wrong.

Locked.

-t
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