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Are there any anime that consistently animate on ones?


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DrizzlingEnthalpy



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:29 pm Reply with quote
I've been wondering for a while, are there any anime, TV, OVA or movie, that consistently animate on ones? I have noticed that whenever an anime has a large budget at its disposal, it puts more details into characters, background, shading, etc., instead of having a higher keyframe count, whereas in American animation, animation smoothness typically comes before detail. The only time I ever remember seeing animation on ones in an anime was during the bullet-time sequences in FLCL. Does anyone else know any other examples?

I don't think this should be put into the "Anime = Badly Animated?" thread, as I'm not talking about animation quality (some of the best animation I've seen in anime is still on twos, threes or more).
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DKL



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:04 pm Reply with quote
TEXHNOLYZE and PARANOIA AGENT are good examples of animation that's consistent AND has a large frame-count

(although, PARANOIA AGENT does change in design a few times, but the animation is still nice)

...

I can really only think of most MADHOUSE shows, but then, sometimes, they still would suffer from inconsistency

(... I think it's more noticable mainly since the art and animation always gets to a high place)

... lemme think of some more stuff...

How about the EVA sequences in EVANGELION?

Those were always very fluid AND detailed...

Anyway, a common rule I see in animation is DETAIL vs. FRAMECOUNT *or something*
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Lolotakun



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:44 pm Reply with quote
Easy question: look around in the movie section! There are plenty of Producton I.G., Madhouse and classic Toei movies (for example) that have far smoother animation sequences than most american features, but it often depends on the director. Take Jin-roh, Ghost in the Shell 1 & 2, Akira, Catnapped, X - The Movie or Hakujaden for size.

You can't expect from any show to be constanly animated on 24 fps., that's simply artistically and financially impossible, and above all visually unendurable. Never got tired of this greasy-smoothy animation at the middle of a Disney-film, begging for a still frame? Or even worse, ever tried a graphically hyper-intense movie like Dead Leaves? I dare you to stand trough the whole thing without taking a break!
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Cloe
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:01 am Reply with quote
DrizzlingEnthalpy wrote:
I've been wondering for a while, are there any anime, TV, OVA or movie, that consistently animate on ones?

No animation that I have encountered, produced anywhere in the world, has consistently animated on ones from the beginning to the end, and here's why:
-Animation on twos is JUST as fluid and takes half the work. This is the standard accepted by the Disney Studio (back when they still made 2D animation, that is). Ones are usually used for very quick actions. Normal movement almost always uses twos.
-Animation on ones does not equal good animation. It takes more than a high frame-rate to create good movement and timing.
-The more relevant question in this context would be, are there any anime that follow the rules of the Disney Fundamentals (easy-in easy-out, archs, staging, sqash and stretch, etc.)? A solid grasp of these concepts leads to good animation, not just smoothness. Compare just keyframes of animation by Frank Thomas, for example, to fully in-betweened animation from The Last Unicorn, the better work will reveal itself right away.

There have been anime films that have kept their frame counts as high as American studio animation and pulled off beautiful work (any Ghibli film, for instance). But realize that the frame rate is not the only deciding factor in telling good animation from bad. FLCL, for instance, despite other claims, is indeed a limited animation that takes full advantage of pauses, stills, and layers. However, key scenes are fully animated, while inventive keyframing and camera angles keep the rest of the show looking nice. That's why it is hard to tell that FLCL isn't full animation.
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Randall Miyashiro



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:23 am Reply with quote
I believe we are seeing the birth of anime on ones with full CG anime titles. While some of the older titles that integrated CG had choppy CG rendered in twos, lots of the newer stuff, like Appleseed, and Advent Children looks really fluid. As for traditional animation, there are far more important places to spend the budget then to have every frame animated.
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angel_lover



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:44 am Reply with quote
Cloe wrote:
No animation that I have encountered, produced anywhere in the world, has consistently animated on ones from the beginning to the end

I think you'll find that a lot of animation from Russia's Mosfilm studios was done on ones.

Randall Miyashiro wrote:
I believe we are seeing the birth of anime on ones with full CG anime titles.

Quite possibly, but I'd rather animation was rendered on twos with decent anti-aliasing than on ones with horrible jaggies everywhere.

There's also the issue of mixing CGI with traditional animation, which first started to annoy me with Disney's The Little Mermaid (I've got kids, OK?). In the opening sequence, the ship is CGI on ones, but the waves are traditional animation on twos. It just looked wrong. Lots of anime suffers from the same issue.
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PantsGoblin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:11 am Reply with quote
I don't know anything about animation. So can someone enlighten me on what "on ones" and "on twos" etc. are? I looked it up on google but the search was way to broad for me to come up with anything. I could tell it has to do with the frame rate but I'm not exactly sure how. I thought it meant one frame per second but judging by the comments I don't think that's the case.
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angel_lover



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:34 am Reply with quote
The usual frame rate for film is 24 frames per second (fps). Animating 'on ones' means every frame will contain a slightly different image. In other words, each setup of cels will be photographed once. If you are 'on twos' then each setup is photographed twice, giving an effective frame rate of 12 fps. 'On threes' gives you 8fps, and so on.

The basic problem is that animating 'on ones' can cost up to twice as much as 'on twos' because you need twice as many cels drawn for moving objects. On the other hand, 12fps isn't quite enough to give the illusion of smooth movement. So, there's a constant struggle between appearance and budgets. I think I remember reading somewhere that most "run of the mill" anime is actually done on a mixture of twos and threes.
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:35 am Reply with quote
PantsGoblin wrote:
I don't know anything about animation. So can someone enlighten me on what "on ones" and "on twos" etc. are?

animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=61

EDIT: angel_lover beats me.
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angel_lover



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:42 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
EDIT: angel_lover beats me.

Hey, I've never touched you Smile Anyway, your one line was much more eloquent than my two paragraphs...
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PantsGoblin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:25 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
PantsGoblin wrote:
I don't know anything about animation. So can someone enlighten me on what "on ones" and "on twos" etc. are?

animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=61


Oh, so it was in the lexicon. Sorry I just automatically look things up on google, I guess I should have looked there first, I didn't expect it to be there though. Anyway I still don't know that much about animation so I don't plan on saying much more on this topic (it's funny my sister's planning on becoming an animator, we both share the same blood but I don't find any interest in drawing or animation other than watching it. She also really likes anime).
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DrizzlingEnthalpy



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:10 pm Reply with quote
angel_lover wrote:
dormcat wrote:
EDIT: angel_lover beats me.

Hey, I've never touched you Smile Anyway, your one line was much more eloquent than my two paragraphs...


I'd insert a "touched by an angel" joke here, but I can't really think of one right now. And if I did think of one, it'd be really corny. Something like "Beaten by an Angel."
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Randall Miyashiro



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:36 am Reply with quote
The CG animation that is cut with live action footage in films like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are done on ones to create a nicer more fluid match. Sometimes CG fails in it's integration with 2D animation because of the jarring difference in frame rate. There are some shows (like Geisters) where the CG monsters are very fluid, but the 2D stuff seems very jerky. I think higher 2D or lower 3D frame rates are key to get a good mesh, like the segments in Animatrix, or even Stand Alone Complex where the CG blends in nicely.
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PantsGoblin
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:19 am Reply with quote
DrizzlingEnthalpy wrote:
angel_lover wrote:
dormcat wrote:
EDIT: angel_lover beats me.

Hey, I've never touched you Smile Anyway, your one line was much more eloquent than my two paragraphs...


I'd insert a "touched by an angel" joke here, but I can't really think of one right now. And if I did think of one, it'd be really corny. Something like "Beaten by an Angel."


How about this?
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Cloe
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:04 am Reply with quote
angel_lover wrote:
I think you'll find that a lot of animation from Russia's Mosfilm studios was done on ones.

I've never seen work from that studio, but now that I think of it, all of Alexander Petrov's work is all done on ones. It's amazing work; you should check it out if you haven't seen it.

Randall Miyashiro wrote:
I think higher 2D or lower 3D frame rates are key to get a good mesh, like the segments in Animatrix, or even Stand Alone Complex where the CG blends in nicely.

I agree, and the best integrated CG with 2D animation I've ever seen was in The Iron Giant, in which the 3D animation for the Giant was traced and drawn with pencil, which was then composited with the rest of the animation to create a seamless conjunction. Also, anything Rosto does with 3D and ANY mixed media is astonishing.
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