Forum - View topicNEWS: Ken Otaku Ryu "Hating the Otaku Wave" Published in Japan
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Tondog38
 Posts: 89 |
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Dang, I wish this book was in English. I really want to read it.
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Don't get your hopes up. When you get right down to it, hate literature is seldom very interesting. Some years back, I made the effort to read a number of "classics of the genre", including the notorious but seldom read Mein Kampf. Overall, I found these books to be dull and uninteresting, filled with half-baked argumentation and limp prose. I suspect their only real audience appeal is to people whose preexisting prejudices they feed upon. As for the discussion in general: there is an awful lot of nonsense being said in this thread by people who seem incapable of telling lolicon from moe, or indeed of grasping any foreign concept beyond the level of a general prejudice born in ignorance. Debate is pointless with someone who isn't interested in debating, only in airing their ignorance, so I'm not going to make that effort. - abunai |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Abunai, you beat me to it.
I found it a bit unnerving to see so many Westerners interested in this Ken Otaku Ryu. You want to read it (some of you even find the title funny) because you are not a Korean, a Chinese (in the Chugoku Nyumon case), or an otaku. I really want to see your faces when "Ken America Ryu" or "Ken EU Ryu" get published. Now go recite Martin Niemöller's speech. |
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Bahamut God
 Posts: 113 |
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...Miyazaki has a few movies where you could grab Loli and certainly Moe screen caps from.
I think it's mostly a cultural thing... I mean we are talking about a society where a woman is (or at least used to be) considered too old to ever marry at like 28. How much diffrent otaku are from anyone else I don't know. The idea that girls have to wait to 18 (as an age of consent) too marry is a western idea, an idea many cultures don't share. I happen to agree with the west, so please don't get the idea I'm defending anything, I'm just pointing it out. Last edited by Bahamut God on Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GarBhaD
Posts: 12 |
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astra, I agree with everything you said. I couldn't have said it better.
The only exception is about males watching shoujo shows just because of "dubious" intentions. I've watched pretty few shoujo shows, and even less mahou shoujo series, mostly because I don't like them - they're always the same again and again, with repeating animations (which I despise), childish plots, etc. And all shows are the same! Prolly the most cliched anime genre is this one. Still, CCS was an exception. Somehow I liked the characters and wanted to know what happened in the end. So yes (and don't make me say it again) I watched whole CCS. But I have no weird intentions towards underaged girls. I agree with all the rest. I'd be happier watching anime if they took out all the lolicon stuff. BTW, I watched up to episode 9 of Shana and I didn't notice much lolicon scenes. Well, I've watched a good deal of anime series, so maybe I got kind of used to ignore such content? Last edited by GarBhaD on Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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One has to remember that most of these mahou, shoujo, are generally targeted toward the tweenys and teenys. The fact that there are adults who find these interesting and intriguing to the level of obsessive behaviour is the controversy. Moe, on the other hand, I believe is purposely targeting adults who have a broody nature in them but for what ever reason having no family themselves. For being such an overcrowded island, Japan seems to have a lot of very lonely people who are social recluse. But like was pointed out, this book is just a form of rebuttal toward the recent high level of positive press the Japanese otaku have been enjoying of late. It should be taken as such and with the proverbial grain.
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neko ewen
 Posts: 30 |
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GarBhaD
Posts: 12 |
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Well, I guess that was to be expected just with the description of the book. I think people said it'd be an interesting read taking that in account, like what "normal" people think of otakus, why they hate'em or which reasoning the author uses to blame otakus of every bad aspect of japanese society
What is Denpa Otoko about? |
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Iniksbane
 Posts: 62 Location: The great state of Mary |
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While I wouldn't say I would read it, I don't really find it disturbing that people want to. I have played a lot of tabletop RPGs in the past (yes I am a dork) around the time when there was the big hubbub about how D&D would make you go crazy and kill people. I still read the arguments so that when I faced them I could respond. The same applies here. I would be more likely to read Ken America Ryu because it is directed at me. I think it's important to understand where the arguments are weak so that we're able to confront them when they come up. The same seems to apply here. |
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HighAsura
Posts: 2 |
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Hello, I'm new to this forum.
Consider that many Japanese are under influence of Taijin kyofusho (lit. fear to other people) as a culture-specific syndrome (like Koreans have Hwa-Byong, BTW I'm Korean myself), Japan is a nice breeding ground for the enormous Otaku subculture. And to some extend, South Korea is also a good breeding ground because of cultural similarities with Japan, too. And I believe there is a biased point of view in this article that it just only stated okaku as strictly male-oriented subculture. For example, it stereotypically mentioned lolicon and moe as prime points, in which they are male-oriented subculture. And I believe female otaku exists... like in the real-life based manga & anime Genshiken showing that female otaku also exists. Also, I don't know why the reporter writes with a gender-biased nuance. Anyway, That's just my opinion. If there's Ken Otaku Ryu, then there might be Ken Kogal Ryu and Ken Gothic Lolita Ryu published soon... just because they are too "strongly Western" and not Japanese. |
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PandaMan
Posts: 16 |
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While I do agree that some of the more recent shows that are loli or moe are creepy, I believe that you have to draw a line. Just because a show is "moe" doesn't mean the person watching it is creepy, or that it was intended for kids. Look at a show like Kamichu!. It's a great show by the same staff that made ROD and ROD TV. The girls are all in elementary/middle school, and it's more of a slice of life show. Am I a creep for watching and enjoying this show? Not in my mind. The same goes for a show like CCS.
CCS itself(from what I've read review wise) is a decent show itself. It isn't like a Koi Koi 7 where you have fanservice for the sake of fanservice. I wish people would get it out of their heads that people only watch certain shows because they like to stare at young characters. What happened to simply enjoying a show like a Kamichu and CCS? Sure you have people that are into the whole loli and moe thing. Anime has many fandoms like most hobbies. But like other posters have said, if they want that fix, there are other places to go to get more explicit material. What you end up with is a bunch of fear mongering that makes people paranoid. I mean after reading through this thread and the replies, you literally get the feeling from some posters that the US gov is going to sue/prosecute anime companies because they distribute porn. Come on people, get a grip. While you may have a questionable panty shot or two, it is nothing like the Ero games and doujin out their. When anime starts having these elements, and with younger characters, then you can start worrying. What you have is someone who most likely hates Otaku's/anime himself, and found a moment to release his book. What ends up happening is that you guilt normal anime fans so much that they feel dirty watching something like Kamichu or CCS. |
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CherishedHonor
Posts: 5 |
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It's not really a western idea. It's mostly a U.S. idea, and even then it's only about half the U.S.. Japan is actually relatively conservative in some respects compared to the rest of the world. The prefectural age of consent over much of Japan is significantly higher (16 in the majority if I recall correctly) than the national age of consent (13), Tokyo and Nagano being the exceptions in honoring the federal limit. Contrast that with some western countries like Spain, which has a uniform age of consent of 13. The age of marriage in Japan is 16 for women, and 18 for men, among the highest in the world and higher than most U.S. states... and the age of majority is almost the highest in the world -- 20 (there are a couple of countries where it's 21). Even if you are 18 or 19 in Japan, you still can't get married without the permission of your parents. The real-life practice of a lolita complex (an obsession with girls around 7-12 years in age) is not acceptable in Japan, nor is it anywhere else in the world. Many Americans get confused about this for a couple reasons. The first reason is that they often mistake the acceptance of sexuality in teenagers for "lolicon". It's not. The average age of consent in the western world, as well as the world at large, is approximately 15. If you look at the U.S.'s neighboring countries, Canada and Mexico, the ages are 14 and 13 respectively. Even in the conservative U.S., the age is 16 in approximately half of the states. The term "lolicon" specifically refers to an interest in biological children (i.e. before sexual maturity). The second reason -- and this is why Japan is unusual -- is that Japan has a relatively HIGH tolerance for publications that are considered indecent, particularly works of pure fiction. Lolicon manga is protected constitutionally in both the United States and Japan, but sheer moral outrage and the lack of differentiation between fantasy and reality on a cultural level results in it being commercially unavailable in the U.S.. Japanese culture does NOT accept lolicon people acting out their fantasies, nor does it consider their tendencies socially acceptable. Rather, fiction that lets them sate their fantasies safely and without bothering others is grudgingly tolerated as a preferred alternative to an increase in sex crimes. In all honesty I think it's a good attitude. I'd rather the loli guys whack off in their apartments than have to worry about them going after my (hypothetical) 8-year-old daughter. Just don't confuse it with teenagers sleeping around. In most places that's not automatically considered an unhealthy thing. And, to be honest, I wish I'd gotten more sex when I was a teenager. (Didn't get any until I was a senior  )
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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CherishedHonor, it isn't often we get a new poster to the forums who can deliver such a well-reasoned and informative first post. When it occasionally happens, it's always a pleasant surprise.
Welcome to the forums. - abunai |
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GarBhaD
Posts: 12 |
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Now, this is an interesting post.
That's news to me and I'm spanish. Still, even if it's legally acceptable, that doesn't mean that people won't freak out upon hearing such news. Common ages for marriages are after reaching majority (18). In fact, nowadays most couples marry older or don't marry at all. Anyway, if you were trying to use the fact that the allowance of marriage is lower to show a more modern or open-minded society, you got it the other way around. That's something of the past (thanks god!), when families were decided by money interests and decisions of parents. That doesn't mean either that it was approved that the couple could have sexual relations.
Of course it's not accepted. Who said it was? Any sane person would get disgusted. Most would even tell you that it's sick. Just try showing somebody the opening sequence of MoonPhase and look at his/her reaction (don't try it at home! ).
While you have a point that it's better that they commit crimes in their minds instead than in real life, you have to agree that a society with a considerable number of people affected by such an obsession has a serious problem. In fact, their numbers are so considerable as to make their interests reach mainstream. I think that's what the discussion was about. Not if lolicon was acceptable or not. Because it is not accepted, the author of the book uses it against otakus (like if all otakus were lolicons ).
[quote=abunai]As for the discussion in general: there is an awful lot of nonsense being said in this thread by people who seem incapable of telling lolicon from moe, or indeed of grasping any foreign concept beyond the level of a general prejudice born in ignorance. Debate is pointless with someone who isn't interested in debating, only in airing their ignorance, so I'm not going to make that effort. [/quote]
I see... so, people with a different opinion than yours are just ignorants, while those who agree with you are well-informed. I thought you weren't going to participate in such a low debate of ignorants. Am I the only one who is annoyed by abunai's arrogance? |
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Steventheeunuch
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To be fair, people on the internet aren't so much keen as to explore new possibilites or opinions, rather make sure people think the same way as they do. |
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