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NEWS: Tokyopop Lay Offs


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Tentopet



Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Denver
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:19 pm Reply with quote
Ztarr wrote:
I think there is some validity to the statement that Tokyopop's english titles do look a little too American-comic-ish. There is a lot more to drawing manga than just big shinny eyes...that's the "something missing" factor...we haven't seen very many artists that truely bring all features of manga together.


I don't think they HAVE to bring all features of manga together. But it's good if you're conscious of the features you don't include, and have actual good REASONS that you don't include them.

But your comment about "big shiny eyes"...do you really think any of those creators think that's what it's all about?! They're consumers just like you. I mean, compare what they're doing to Teen Titans, which uses big shiny eyes and has random SD or sweatdrops thrown in there. I'd say there's a big difference.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Deacon Blues wrote:
Ztarr wrote:
That's one thing I don't like about Tokyopop: calling non-japanese manga "OEL" and calling manga from Japan "100% authentic"...

Don't forget that American companies like TokyoPop and Viz only translate manga that has been successful in Japan...so as a North American reader, all the tons and tons of crappy manga in Japan gets filtered out through the American licensing companies...and doesn't reach your local bookstore shelf.


I wouldn't even lump Tokyopop in the same mixture as Viz. Viz actually keeps things on the line of what the original Japanese where as Tokyopop decides to doctor the manga and make it more hip and exciting by adding unnecessary swearing and removing what they think is pointless dialogue. Their claims of "100% Original Manga" is a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.


You've obviously missed the news items about viz censoring some titles like Descendants of Darkness. Viz also only releases manga so far as I know. I remember at Comic-con a couple yrs ago someone asked about manwha & Viz had no plans whatsoever for it.
I happen to prefer Tokyopop overall. ADV is still really hit & miss on how well the titles read & Viz can also be like reading stereo instructions. And what was that thing in Shonen Jump about changing the name of the river to the River Styx in YuYu Hakusho? (I'm hopelessly behind on Shonen Jump-Vol 24.....The pile grows at an alarming rate. Did kill off 6 or 7 Shojo Beats last month, though) Viz does their share of tweaking.
I don't care who's giving me yaoi. I'm buying it-except the OEL stuff-bought one & was horrified at the lack of any story development (hey-at least I tried one.) Blu has some great titles.
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Cave



Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:58 pm Reply with quote
Deacon Blues wrote:

I wouldn't even lump Tokyopop in the same mixture as Viz. Viz actually keeps things on the line of what the original Japanese where as Tokyopop decides to doctor the manga and make it more hip and exciting by adding unnecessary swearing and removing what they think is pointless dialogue. Their claims of "100% Original Manga" is a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.


Uhm, shows how much you know. Image-wise, Tokyopop has yet to cut out anything. Viz on the other hand... Can we say Yami no Matsuei and Shaman King?
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Deacon Blues



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 275
Location: Albuquerque, NM
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:41 am Reply with quote
I think you both missed what I am saying. I never said anything about removing pages/censoring anything in regards to Tokyopop. If you compare the original Japanese to their translation, it is no where near what it should be. They changed important dialogue between two characters in one of their recent Gundam manga into "Hay Yahagi, sound familiar" when it should have been them talking about a reference of where he came from and the events that happened in the past. Their UWAH! becomes either OH SHIT! or OH fudge! On another note, Shaman King is more kid oriented here in America. I suppose I should have cited some examples (Gundam the Origin) that stayed close.
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Abarenbo Shogun



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 1573
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:43 am Reply with quote
[quote="Cave"]
Deacon Blues wrote:

Image-wise, Tokyopop has yet to cut out anything.


spoiler[Sex Scence with Mogi in Initial D V#1.]
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Truth_Teller



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:20 am Reply with quote
Come on guys. Does it come as that much of a surprise that Tokyopop is laying off people? It's been going on for the past few years. It's just that the public doesn't know about it and wasn't publicized. It's normal for them. Klekner is the biggest news since he's one of the VPs. It's too bad the others were laid off. Maybe it's all for the better in terms of their career. Find better opportunities elsewhere. I see the layoffs as blessings in disguise.

As for their titles, most of them are horrible with a few exceptions like Priest and .hack. OEL is here to stay. The trend is to own their own titles instead of paying for licensing fee. It's less so that they are forced into it. The layoffs, OEL growth in their libraries and not renewing their licenses are all part of a cost-cutting measure. That's very telling of their future in the manga business. Don't expect the quality to go up. The manga market is too saturated as it is. At least Viz still has a commitment to bring in japanese manga through its mother company.
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darkhunter



Joined: 13 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:31 am Reply with quote
Priest and .hack arn't OEL manga though.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:05 pm Reply with quote
Deacon Blues wrote:
I think you both missed what I am saying. I never said anything about removing pages/censoring anything in regards to Tokyopop. If you compare the original Japanese to their translation, it is no where near what it should be. They changed important dialogue between two characters in one of their recent Gundam manga into "Hay Yahagi, sound familiar" when it should have been them talking about a reference of where he came from and the events that happened in the past. Their UWAH! becomes either OH SHIT! or OH fudge! On another note, Shaman King is more kid oriented here in America. I suppose I should have cited some examples (Gundam the Origin) that stayed close.


So you're more worried about adding swears than cutting sex scenes. And it's ok for YuYu Hakusho to, according to the little Shonen Jump preview they're passing out, change the Sanzu River to the River Styx in YuYu Hakusho. And Viz constantly change names, don't they? Weren't they perfectly happy with Zoro & then it became Zolo?
The problem with translating between languages is an exact translation is almost impossible. Why are there so many translations of Dante's Inferno, the Bible, etc.? Because someone comes along who thinks the existing versions were not quite all that & need to be corrected. I love comic shop talk because you always overhear the wildest rantings-one shop owner insisted Wendee Lee uses Amanda Winn Lee as an alias when she directs & wouldn't hear anything else. Another guy was going off on how they've translated InuYasha incorrectly because Yasha isn't demon such & such is(I forget. Fact is, Japanese demons seem more like our fairies- lots of different types all vaguely similar, but as different as a kappa is from a leprechaun or a banshee, or a brownie or a will'o'the wisp.)

As for the layoffs, the economy has gone south a bit in some areas so one of the first things one stops spending on is extras like entertainment. There was all that talk about the soft movie market last year & dvd sales stagnating. Other companies like CPM & ADV did some huge layoffs a year or so ago, but seem to have hired more people now. Companies that didn't adjust over the last year are adjusting now like Geneon & Tokyopop. It's a tough call to make, so this Musicland thing makes a good scapegoat. We had huge layoffs about 2 yrs ago & they finally ran a test this month for my classification for the first time in about 5 yrs which means they've finally started hiring again & they've run thru the existing list of lay-offs & testers. It clears the payroll & by the time they re-hire, most will likely have moved on, so they get more entry-level on the payroll. If the view is any hamster can turn the wheel, the company doesn't really care about paying for skill.
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linlinchan



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 286
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:53 pm Reply with quote
Truth_Teller wrote:

As for their titles, most of them are horrible with a few exceptions like Priest and .hack. OEL is here to stay. The trend is to own their own titles instead of paying for licensing fee. It's less so that they are forced into it. The layoffs, OEL growth in their libraries and not renewing their licenses are all part of a cost-cutting measure. That's very telling of their future in the manga business. Don't expect the quality to go up. The manga market is too saturated as it is. At least Viz still has a commitment to bring in japanese manga through its mother company.


It is easily 10 times the investment to produce an OEL than it is to produce a Japanese comic. This is a common misconception. In the end, if both SELL the same amount, yes, the return on an OEL is greater. But, this hasn't been the case yet. Getting a new artist off the ground, paying them up front, supporting them, and marketing something without any existing US fan base all COST MONEY, as compared to licensing a title for which no additional art is required, and where only a small fee is required up front, with the largest part being ROYALTIES after and during the sale, which come out of revenues, not payed up front the way that OEL needs to be.

As far as licenses go... did you ever consider that possibly there are reasons other than COST that licenses might not be renewed?
Don't assume things you don't understand.
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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:17 pm Reply with quote
linlinchan wrote:
As far as licenses go... did you ever consider that possibly there are reasons other than COST that licenses might not be renewed?


To be honest, yes. Whether it's directly or indirectly involved, it's always about the bottom line.
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jgreen



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1324
Location: St. Louis, MO
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:38 pm Reply with quote
I think Toykopop just needs to find new places to dig up manga. *begins crotchety old man rant* Why, back in my day, Antarctic Press used to track down honest-to-goodness dojinshi and bring that over, and some of it was quite good. I always liked Ippongi Bang's stuff, and Silbuster had some amazing art on it. There's billions of manga out there, I'm sure Tokyopop can track down some of the good stuff outside of the Big Three if they look hard enough.
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Truth_Teller



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:54 am Reply with quote
darkhunter wrote:
Priest and .hack arn't OEL manga though.


I didn't mean that. Shouldn't have put OEL behind the two manga titles. Yes, I know Priest and .hack aren't OEL. I think you might've read it wrong. What I meant was, out of all their crappy manga, only priest and .hack are decent. Then my next thought was about their OEL titles.
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Truth_Teller



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:58 am Reply with quote
linlinchan wrote:
Truth_Teller wrote:

As for their titles, most of them are horrible with a few exceptions like Priest and .hack. OEL is here to stay. The trend is to own their own titles instead of paying for licensing fee. It's less so that they are forced into it. The layoffs, OEL growth in their libraries and not renewing their licenses are all part of a cost-cutting measure. That's very telling of their future in the manga business. Don't expect the quality to go up. The manga market is too saturated as it is. At least Viz still has a commitment to bring in japanese manga through its mother company.


It is easily 10 times the investment to produce an OEL than it is to produce a Japanese comic. This is a common misconception. In the end, if both SELL the same amount, yes, the return on an OEL is greater. But, this hasn't been the case yet. Getting a new artist off the ground, paying them up front, supporting them, and marketing something without any existing US fan base all COST MONEY, as compared to licensing a title for which no additional art is required, and where only a small fee is required up front, with the largest part being ROYALTIES after and during the sale, which come out of revenues, not payed up front the way that OEL needs to be.

As far as licenses go... did you ever consider that possibly there are reasons other than COST that licenses might not be renewed?
Don't assume things you don't understand.


I am not assuming things here. I may know more than you think. First of all, TP does not pay royalty fees to their OEL artists. If they sell 1 or 1 million copies, TP owns the rights. The artist is paid the initial fee and that's it. You ask me how I know? Well, that's for me to know and you to forever guess. Don't you think TP is smart enough to make the OEL artists to sign a contract that waives their royalty fees, rights, etc. before they even draw a page? That's just shrewd and smart business.
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Truth_Teller



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:03 am Reply with quote
Joe Mello wrote:
linlinchan wrote:
As far as licenses go... did you ever consider that possibly there are reasons other than COST that licenses might not be renewed?


To be honest, yes. Whether it's directly or indirectly involved, it's always about the bottom line.


I agree with you. linlinchan obviously does not know the nature of the business. TP is by all means a business. At the end of the day, they're concerned with their bottom line and staying within the black. They're not here to please the fans. If making more money means they have to please the fans, then they'll do it. But that's not their primary concern. Their concern is $$$. They're still making money despite fans protesting on their delayed/slow releases coupled by their less-than-steller OEL titles. Layoffs are apart of that bottomline as well. You can't think like a fanboy linlinchan. It's a business. Get with reality.
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linlinchan



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 286
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:35 pm Reply with quote
Truth_Teller wrote:
linlinchan wrote:
Truth_Teller wrote:

As for their titles, most of them are horrible with a few exceptions like Priest and .hack. OEL is here to stay. The trend is to own their own titles instead of paying for licensing fee. It's less so that they are forced into it. The layoffs, OEL growth in their libraries and not renewing their licenses are all part of a cost-cutting measure. That's very telling of their future in the manga business. Don't expect the quality to go up. The manga market is too saturated as it is. At least Viz still has a commitment to bring in japanese manga through its mother company.


It is easily 10 times the investment to produce an OEL than it is to produce a Japanese comic. This is a common misconception. In the end, if both SELL the same amount, yes, the return on an OEL is greater. But, this hasn't been the case yet. Getting a new artist off the ground, paying them up front, supporting them, and marketing something without any existing US fan base all COST MONEY, as compared to licensing a title for which no additional art is required, and where only a small fee is required up front, with the largest part being ROYALTIES after and during the sale, which come out of revenues, not payed up front the way that OEL needs to be.

As far as licenses go... did you ever consider that possibly there are reasons other than COST that licenses might not be renewed?
Don't assume things you don't understand.


I am not assuming things here. I may know more than you think. First of all, TP does not pay royalty fees to their OEL artists. If they sell 1 or 1 million copies, TP owns the rights. The artist is paid the initial fee and that's it. You ask me how I know? Well, that's for me to know and you to forever guess.


If you'd REREAD what I wrote, I stated that royalties come out of licensed books, and payments are made up front for OEL manga, exactly the same thing you have stated... Not sure what we're arguing about.

Quote:
I agree with you. linlinchan obviously does not know the nature of the business.


Err... seeing as I work FOR the business, I'd say I know quite a bit about the business.

Quote:

TP is by all means a business. At the end of the day, they're concerned with their bottom line and staying within the black. They're not here to please the fans. If making more money means they have to please the fans, then they'll do it. But that's not their primary concern. Their concern is $$$. They're still making money despite fans protesting on their delayed/slow releases coupled by their less-than-steller OEL titles. Layoffs are apart of that bottomline as well. You can't think like a fanboy linlinchan. It's a business. Get with reality.

a: I'm female, just so you know.
b: I'm finished arguing with you. I was trying to bring some actual, concrete information into this pile of speculation, only to have people shoot back that I have no idea what I'm talking about, despite the fact that I'm rather directly involved.
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