Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-01-26]
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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Yeah, I don't think anybody except the truly hardcore is really going to want those musicals. And I've also given up on Sailor Stars ever being licensed--they know it won't work right for the R1-targeted audience, so there's no mainstram pool of buyers for Sailor Stars DVDs. And, since there are fansubs coming out with R2 DVD source material, there won't be the "I'll buy R1 DVDs to replace these crappy VHS-source digisubs" incentive to buy them either.
------------------------------------------------- On fansubs vs. professional DVDs: I've brought this up on past AnswerMan threads and elsewhre in the General > Anime forum, but it bears repeating: On a whole, I will trust professional DVDs, because they are, well, professional. On shows like Super Gals, for instance, you just can't beat the resources that R1 licensees have to research and understand everything. Some, like Bandai's Wolf's Rain, are decidedly and obviously more accurate than fansubs (namely, Cheya's reference to herself as "this," not "I".) True, rush jobs AKA speedsubs are more likely to be inaccurate and contain English errors, but the better-quality and more careful groups will have 99% correct and flowing English. Sure, there are some spelling/grammar issues in fansubs, but it's not like R1 DVDs are perfect either. Most people these days don't know the difference between it's and its, or to and too, and a few of these errors sneak into R1 discs. ADV's Angelic Layer had a line of "Evan Misaki is ~~~" rather than "Even." (Not to mention a point where they mistranslated "so many friends (sonna ni tomodachi) as "such friends.") Funimation seems to think that "their's" is a word (see Fruits Basket, episode 15), when even a simple Word spellcheck would have told them that it should be "theirs." Another argument in favor of fansubs is cultural considerations, reference notes, name suffixes, etc. I know I'm more of a hardcore fan/purist, but I would like to see the -san, -chan, etc. in the subtitles (props to Funimation for doing this). I understand that DVDs are aiming for a mainstream audience, and they want to avoid using too much Japanese when they don't have to. However, it's very disconcerting when you hear one thing and read something completely different, like in TokyoPop's Marmalade Boy where someone will mention a last name like "Akizuki" and the character's first name, "Meiko" appears in the subtitles. Do they really need to deculturize it to the point where all last-name references are eliminated? Marmalade Boy also contains numerous omissions and very liberal edits, and they totally drop the ball in one episode when a man calls his wife "omae," translated as "you," when it's a very common cultural thing for men to use "omae" as "dear" or "honey," and for women to do the same with "anata." ADV got this right with Pedro and his wife in Excel Saga. Not to mention the lack of translations on insert songs in MB. (Licensing rights, maybe?) EDIT: there are some flat-out errors and mistranslations in MB, like TLing "osokatta" as "today was busy" instead of "today was slow" (referring to an ice cream store) See for yourself in episode 33, 20:43. I know it's anal to go into details like this, but after seeing the ep, I had to come here. Also, I wouldn't want to be someone who says, "DVDs are bad, fansubs pwn all!!" without sufficient evidence. If the Marmalade Boy DVDs were in fact based on a fansub (as the review at animeondvd states), then surely the "pros" can clean things up and fix the mistakes of amateurs, right? [/edit] And let's not forget about a certain company that provides no translations for songs in many of its shows, and whose subtitles often leave glaring gaps in comprehensibility to anyone who doesn't know some Japanese. For instance, Key the Metal Idol, episode 14, when some unrelated kid yells out "oneesan!" to Sakura, they put "Big Sister!" in the subs, even though the word is being used to adress a slightly older (unrelated) woman. If you're not going to put "oneesan" in the subtitles, at least do some non-literal translation like "lady" or "miss" that more accurately conveys the meaning 
Okay, I suppose this is long enough to get the point across...I know it's unethical to think this way, and just as illegal, but if in a given series, the "professional" work by paid professionals is no better or worse than the work of fans who do it for free, then what the heck am I paying the professionals for? 
Don't get me wrong: I don't think that R1 licensees are evil corruptors of anime, and I'm not one of those fans who downloads fansubs and never buys DVDs, but for the reasons given above, R1 DVDs are not always 100% better than fansubs in translation. The vast majority of the time, yes, but if GOKU_5348 will tell us what the heck they're singing about, and the R1 company won't, then "who has the better translation?" is a non-issue. -------------------------- Edited to add even more length  I'm doing some fansub translation on a pointless, but fun (and relatively easy to TL) etchi series. I know that I myself am not better than the pros (or most of the TLs out there), but I can say that the English quality is just as good as what you see on this post.
Last edited by Zalis116 on Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:37 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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So he's gone from taking many art classes to majoring in art now? |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Maybe he just took some art classes. I was under the impression he took quite a few and/or majored in it. Perhaps I was not 100% accurate on that point. Either way, he took enough classes to know more than the average person on art and what drawing encompasses. |
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Hika Yagami
 Posts: 52 |
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I agree with the fansubs. I download them so I can make sure that I can watch shows,after I buy the DVDs, in the house since I have a lot of younger siblings who can't watch the more mature stuff. The one thing I really hate with fansubs is all of the profanity that is added to it. I think it's downright pointless and unnecissary.
Hika Yagami |
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AuraShadow
 Posts: 242 Location: Texas |
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About the fansub thing, I don't mind about bad translations. I personaly think sometimes it's a good thing. It helps you see the mistakes of the translater and also builds up your japanese learning skills. Plus I can pretty much get the jist of the show, so a perfect translation isn't really needed. (The only exception to that rule is chinese bootlegs which make me go mad with the horrible english translations, hench why it is a chinese bootleg in the first place) We shouldn't always expect a perfect translation to just be given to us.
In responce to the Sailor Moon thing. I do agree that SM is pretty much dead here in Amercia (same for Pokemon, Digimon, etc) Even so I would LOVE to have the Stars season dubbed and the live action brought over. The reason for Stars is more than not making a profit (anyone who's seen/heard of the season knows I'm refering to the starlights as a major reason why they won't dub it) and I've heard rumors of one company trying to bring over PGSM, but that's about it. Even though I've moved on anime wise, I still have a respect for sailor moon. Heck, as soon as I'm done writting this I'm going to go watch some more of the R season boxset I'm borrowing from a friend. (The japanese uncut one released from ADV that is now discountinued) What I didn't know is that Utena had anything live action. That suprised me and I would LOVE to see that! Alot of live actions seires aren't brought over anyway, so that's not suprising that I've never heard of it. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Here, let me clear this up: I majored in Film; my focus was theory, analysis and criticism. That degree required me to be familiar with modern filmmaking techniques, including multimeda graphic design and animation. I used all of my elective credits on art courses, which resulted in maybe 5 classes total. My minor was East Asian Studies, with a focus on language. I've been a journalist in the anime industry for 8 years and have been writing reviews since I began. I'm not posting this in defense of anything. I'm simply trying to clear up any confusion. |
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mrploddy
Posts: 17 |
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I would like to take issue with the view thats been presented of the Sailor Moon franchise.
The main reason why the Sailor Moon franchise is dead is mainly because of the following reasons - 1) Companies giving up TV rights 2) ADV and Geneon not trying to renew the DVD licensing 3) Toei wanting to kill off the Sailor Moon franchise in the western hemisphere. This by no way shape or form means that the Sailor Moon franchise is dead as far as the fanbase is concerned. I think if you took time to look around a bit you'd see that people are still buying Sailor Moon merchandise in their droves. For example I was at Otakon 2005 and at the merchant who was purveying CD's, the live action and musical CD's sold out within the first day or so. I could count many other retailers doing a brisk business on Sailor Moon merchandise. Have you tried looking on ebay these days?. Some original merchandise is fetching huge amounts of money like over $100 for the original tokyopop manga sets. I really don't know what Toei and Bandai have in mind for the Sailor Moon franchise but I'll comment on it - Manga :- I don't expect there to be any new Manga drawn by Takeuchi sensei unless something very drastic changes though I would love to see some. Anime :- They've released the rest of the Anime series on uncut Region 2 DVD and the quality of the transfer is signficiantly superior to the masters which were provided to DiC and originally Pioneer. I have all of the show on R2's bar the first series. You'll find a hard job in actually finding the DVD's in Japan and even when I was in Akihibara it was difficult to find first press editions with collectors boxes. As for there being new anime - I'm quite sure that Toei would animate it if any new manga was drawn. Live action :- This could probably be regarded as the sleeper hit. I think people think it's not going to make it over because it has Japanese actresses and so would have a niche market. At the time of writing, the complete series including specials fansubbed torrent at a size of 11.9GB currently has 23 seeders, 236 leechers and 3,178 completed downloads. Now I wouldn't call those numbers on bittorrent a "niche" market. The live action merchandise when the series was airing sold out very quickly and some things were nigh on impossible to get hold of if you didn't order them well in advance. I will agree that the series was initially very camp but as it got in to it's stride the plot did become very intense as it moved onwards and especially after Act 36. Perhaps you should also take the time to look at the cosplay at Anime conventions - there is a very active PGSM cosplay community which I expect to see continue. Musicals :- I'll admit it, this is my thing so sue me if you like. However it boils down to a simple fact The musicals started in 1993 and ran on virtually a twice yearly basis up untill January 2005. If they were horrid or such like why would Bandai have continued to pour money in to them. The simple truth is THEY WERE MAKING MONEY. Again the fansubbed torrents speak for themselves, one fansubbed musical has had in excess of 2,000 downloads. 2,000 downloads isn't a niche market. I take issue with the description of the musicals being something to "endure". If you've only seen the likes of 1993 Gaiden Dark Kingdom Fukkatsu Hen which is what most people have then yes that was campy but as time went on the production values increased tremendously and so did the quality of the songs. If you took for example 2004 Shin Kaguya Shima Densetsu you would see an incredible difference. Also if you took the time to look at them properly you would notice that the musicals have actually in some cases followed the manga storyline more accurately. For example 2002 Mugen Gakuen Mistress Labyrinth is in fact a more accurate retelling of the Mugen arc of the SM manga than the anime series. There are also original storylines not just manga arc recycles and this is exemplified by 1999 Kaguya Shima Densetsu which was completely original and also the Dracul series of Musicals which crossed Sailor Moon with Vampires and Translycannia. So don't just regard musicals as something to laugh at and endure, there is a fanbase out there if you took the time to look for it, even to the extent that SM musicals have been shwon at convetions. So anyhow to conclude this ramble what I'd say is the reason why the franchise is dead in America and elsewhere is because the companies wanted to let it die, not because the fans still arent there. Theres a difference. Regards mrploddy |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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will you in a cat this week?
go on pleasae, not a kitten but a cute cat. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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On Amazon awhile back, I saw some discs from the original 14-disc release of the 1st 2 seasons selling for $100+ apiece. And these are the DiC Cartoon Network edited versions! I don't know if any of these discs actually get sold, but those were the asking prices.
I hate to say it, but that does seem kind of niche to me, especially compared to something mainstream like Bleach, where each episode gets more than 100,000 DLs on average. (And this is just from 1 fansub group out of many.) Or Naruto, which gets 210,000+ even in the midst of what people are calling a lousy filler arc. Granted, it's not exactly fair to compare the SM musicals to Bleach or Naruto, so let's take a few more examples from one of the fansub groups working on Bleach... Aishiteru ze Baby (relatively niche shoujo romance about a high school guy who takes care of his 5 y/o cousin) -- 13,000+ per episode (average), and there were other groups on this show Suzuka (slightly etchi but unspectacular spors/drama/romance series) --38,000+ per ep average (only 1 group worked on this series) Canvas 2 (also no fansub competition for this series, an art-themed romance/drama/comedy based on an H-game) -- 15,000+ per ep average. |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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I was always under the impression that ADV and Geneon wanted to renew the rights but Toei simply refused (or asked an insanely high amount with the expectation that they wouldn't pay that much, effectively the same thing). |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Uh, I'm not sure how small the numbers have to be in order for you consider something a niche market, but say like the impossible happens and evry single person who downloaded the Sailor Moon live-action stuff for free over the internet went out and bought the DVD, you'd STILL have a niche market situation. The average anime title sells somewhere in the vicinity of ~5-10,000 units, and it's considered a niche market by most folks in the hom entertainment industry. Furthermore, it's been proven time and again that bittorrent numbers are not a reliable way to predict sales. Popularity, perhaps, but no company I know of actually looks at bittorrent numbers and says "well, we'll sell this many copies!" because that's completely foolish. Sailor Moon is dying because it's old, there haven't been any new releases in a long time and the bulk of its fandom has moved on to newer and shinier things. There's a fanbase there still, of course, but it's vastly smaller than it once was. That is the reality of the situation. |
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AceRyonik
 Posts: 145 |
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I made the second-to-last comic... I sent in a bunch of comics in an attempt to simply annoy Zac. When I saw my entry as a runner-up, I freaked out, like a supervillain whose plans were just foiled by the hero's pet monkey. I didn't even really think the one that got posted was the best one. Here are the rest:
The message that I sent the e-mail in read: "Hey, Answerman. I'm kinda hungry, but the ATM's too far to walk. Think you could spot me a fiver for a sandwich from Wawa? I'll pay you back as soon as Bubba pays me for the sweet lovings." |
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Necros Antiquor
 Posts: 571 Location: Funny in a car crash sort of way |
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And even the really outstanding anime titles with some marketing push behind them like Disney's Studio Ghibli releases don't really break out of the niche market, or at least into an immense profit. As "popular" as anime is getting in the United States, I can't see it ever becoming more than a niche market, albeit a growing market. |
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Shinji Takase
 Posts: 18 Location: Eastern US |
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On fansubs vs R1 releases:
Personally, I like fansubs. What I find hilarious is the fact that many digisub groups have been around now for at least 5-10 years, more often than not provide high quality subs (some groups go as far as creating professional-style karaoke effects for the intro and ending songs), and follow the unwritten R1 Licensing Code (US company picks up license - group drops series like Smart Bomb). On the flip side, the things I do not like about fansubs: Ruining jokes (or surprising revalations) by showing the translation before the speaker actually says it (this is still a problem with R1 DVDs as well). Also, the adding of F-bombs, S-bombs, Fatherless Child Bombs, and Female Dog Bombs (I'm glad more groups are starting to get into 'soft-subs' - It allows me to slice and dice them out), especially when it seems completely out-of-place and -character for them. And, when the R1 DVD hits, I buy. Usually, if their sub quality is better, I'll dump the fansubs. However, there are series that have not made it to these shores that have been subbed, and probably never will at this point (GLASS no Kamen comes to mind). Those are the only ones I guard with Fort Knox-style measures. Just my nickel. |
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noneko_Mamimi
 Posts: 41 |
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Ha, oh my god I know! If I saw 'the king' outside my window, I'd get my global kitchen knife and call the cops... |
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