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Revision to Fansubber Ethical Code?


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LordRobin



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 354
Location: Akron, OH
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:04 am Reply with quote
This phrase seems to be generating a lot of heat:

Quote:
1a. At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.


Since it's word-for-word from my original post, I feel I should defend it.

First off, many of the angry comments say "Why should I have to hunt down older series?" Read the clause again. It says "obscure or older". My two favorite fansubs, Hikaru no Go and Jungle wa Itsumo Hale Nochi Guu are far from "old" -- they are, in fact, brand new. But they pass the "obscure" test. Both series are just strange or esoteric enough to make a US license unlikely.

I added that clause because the standard defense of fansubbers is that they help the anime industry by popularizing anime in the US, but most digisubbers concentrate on the latest hot @#$% that doesn't NEED popularizing.

You wanna claim that you're popularizing anime? Prove it. Pick a series that you like, but that ISN'T ALREADY HOT IN THE US, and sub it! Justify your existence.

Or else come clean and admit that you're simply there to provide an outlet for the cheap and impatient to get their free anime.

------RM
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3620
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:47 am Reply with quote
Shouta wrote:
While ANN had their best intentions with creating a new code of ethics, I personally think that a lot of it is flawed. While it's a nice idea to create a code of ethics for people to adhere to, it really is a pipe dream and with the sort of direct wording presented in the article. Instead, a true guideline should be presented that addresses the international community as well (although I personally deal with the R1 countries).

Yes, I too think it's sort of a pipe dream. But as you said yourself, I think it's a nice idea and therefore deserves at least to be explored. And if the wording isn't to your satisfaction, then why don't you suggest an alternate wording? Wink

Quote:
1. The main purpose of fansubs is to allow English-language fans access to obscure anime they would never see otherwise.

a. At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.

b. A fansubber does the community no good by duplicating another's work. Therefore, if a fansub of an anime is already available, the fansubber should devote his or her efforts to another series, unless said existing fansub suffers from an excessively bad translation.

Shouta wrote:
The main point is a bit English-centric if you ask me. You can't forget the Norwegian, Spanish, German, French, and etc speakers on the internet who don't get the luxury of speaking English as their primary language for fansubs.

Well, this is a english-language website and the article is written in english, so I think it's normal to be english-centric. What is not so normal is that the article is too North-America-centric. I acknowledge this but I don't think I could have written it any differently since I'm from Canada, so I'm not familiar with the issues that oversea fans might have. In order to make this code of ethics more international, it would require the input of international fans.

Shouta wrote:
For 1a, while I agree that old series should be subbed, it shouldn't be a means to justify a group's existence. It'd be like forcing anime fans that only rent anime to buy just to justify that they watch anime. Fansubbers aren't only people that bring anime to fans that they wouldn't necessarily see but also people who love a series, new or old, and wish for it to be seen and want to do the work. This leads into 1b.

This is all true, but I just wish there were more fansubbers that loved old series. Like I said previously, this isn't about FORCING anyone. There isn't any way to force a fansubber to do a project he has no interest in. But I do think it's worthwhile to ENCOURAGE older series. Just encourage people to look at older stuff and maybe they'll realize there's a few hidden gems still left.

Shouta wrote:
While the intent is nice, I don't agree that one group should be responsible for bringing a series to fans. Perhaps it's my mistrust of digisub groups in general (since I've been entrenched in it) or the fact that I can understand that some people wish to do a series for the pure joy of working on it. Personally, I don't care if another group is doing it, I don't sub for the leechers of the nameless faces that come in and out but for the people that I'm friends with that don't have the luxury of knowing Japanese. Not only that, but it's a check and balance for me. It's a way of making sure I do my absolute best because the series I do, I adore. It's also a way for me to critique myself when I look back so I know what I did wrong and know what I can improve on.

Well, you got me there! Anime smile + sweatdrop But still, if you see a series that's already fansubbed, wouldn't you rather pass it on to your friends rather than go through all the work of fansubbing it yourself?

Quote:
a. Because of the speed at which new series are picked up, it should be assumed that a new series *will* be picked up. Therefore only the first 4 or 5 episodes should be fansubbed in order to give a taste of the anime. (roughly the same as viewing the first DVD release)

Shouta wrote:
I definitely don't agree with 2a. Isn't it a little pretentious to assume that every new series will be picked up when clearly it hasn't happened? While I'd be glad if I knew it was going to be licensed but then what would be the purpose of fansubbing? Besides, there is no guarantee, I don't see R1 companies picking up a show like Human Scramble (to name a new one) or any of the Yuusha series (to name older ones).

I agree 2a was sort of a stretch. But that was part of the point. As is said in the article, the guidelines were made much more stringent than the unwritten ethics. The idea is to push for ultra-ethical fansubs. The reasoning behind 2a is that many *many* fansubbers go for the ultra-cool series that you just know are going to be picked up by the US companies. Wolf's Rain, Last Exile, Scrapped Princess, .hack, Full Metal Panic... it's OBVIOUS those were going to or will be licensed. And for those that don't get licensed, waiting until the end of the series isn't that bad. Well, like I said, it's a stretch. It's not for nothing that I called this a "holy grail" of ethical fansubbing (in the sense that it's almost impossible to respect *all* of the rules)

Quote:
c. Fansubs are not meant to compete with a professional product, therefore the audio/video quality of a fansub should not attempt to match or better the quality of a professional DVD. In fact, a large filesize is a hindrance to the spread of a fansub and thus goes against the purpose of increasing awareness of a title. 175MB per 25-minute episode should be considered a maximum and 140MB a better choice.

Shouta wrote:
I don't agree with 3c. Fansubs aren't meant to compete, they're meant as a measuring stick IMO. While not all fansubbers are right, a lot of the truly good ones put a lot more effort than any domestic company I have ever seen (mind you that I've been subbing for 4+ but I've been watching for 8+) They make sure everything is right and try to keep the show as intact as possible. I've seen more than a few poorly done domestic releases here in the US and that shouldn't be happening. They're supposed to be professional products yet the final outcome doesn't come out as so. Instead, you have fansubbers doing a better job than the people that get paid to do it and the fansubbers do this for the love of the hobby, not to forget to mention free. In some regards, this helps domestic companies because loud-mouthed fans will speak up on occasion when a company does a bad job. While those are few and far between, it can be a loud message to companies who have gotten quite lazy.

It seems you were mostly talking about translation quality. 3c is about audio/video. While I agree with all of your points, it seems to me that trying to match DVD quality in fansubs is just an excuse to say "I don't need the DVD since the fansub has the same quality".

Quote:
4a. Do not fansub an American-produced anime. Even if the company didn't officially announce a "license" or a release date, we know it's going to come to the US.

Shouta wrote:
Uh, how are we supposed to know if an anime is American-produced unless stated so? Quite an annoying point that's a bit moot unless we have the information right off the bat. You want people to not sub American-produced material? Say that you put money into it and are going to release it as soon as the actual show is announced because with that info, it's up for grabs.

Well OF COURSE you can't respect 4a is you don't know it's American-produced. But honestly, how many companies actively hide their involvment? With the tiniest bit of research, you should be able to know if a US company funded an anime. How many people subbed Ninja Scroll, and yet it was no secret that it was funded by Urban Vision.

Shouta wrote:
Now, 6c assumes subbers charge people money which isn't the case. Almost all that I know of ask for donations or sponsors to help fund a series which was a common practice during the trad subbing days. There frankly isn't anything wrong with it unless the group overcharges because these people are willing to help pay for a series or etc. Asking is very different from demanding. I could go on about this but I won't unless someone has something to say about it.

No, 6c doesn't "assume" anything. I'm very well aware that most fansubbers already respect this unwritten rule, and that's why it's in the article.

Shouta wrote:
Lastly, regarding 6a. I don't agree with it. Mainly because a lot of us do put a lot of hard work into it and we like to be at least recognized for it. It's a bit of an ego boost but it's harmless unless it gets really in the way like overtly fancy subtitles.

It's really an ego boost to see a nick that could be anyone's in the credits? Well, to say the truth, 6a was prompted by a bunch of recent fansubs where they seem to put more effort on the credits than on the show itself. Credits that pulse, fade and glow, displayed as if they were a translation of the real credits (as if the fansubber any anywhere near the kind of merit that the original creators did). Credits that really draw attention to themselves and blot out the opening animation. There's a difference between ego and over-inflated ego.

Shouta wrote:
While the internal flak is much needed, digisubbers don't need people who really don't understand what it means to be a subber or have not been one. It's one of those cases that experience really brings a big difference in viewpoint. While I dislike the community, I will adamantly defend the good groups from people who think they know more about this than we do.

I don't think I know more about fansubbing than you, but I don't need to have made fansubs in order to know about fansub ethics. You think you somehow have more right to talk about this than the rest of us? That having made fansubs somehow makes you "better"? Well, see my previous point about independant viewpoints.
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ÄlveKatt



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:55 am Reply with quote
Quote:
"In order to make this code of ethics more international, it would require the input of international fans."


*Waves a hand!* I am from Sweden, will my input count?

In most european-union countries most people between 16 and 35 are likely to have good enough understanding of english to be able to comprehend an english subtitle well. Most fans here do know english. In fact so many knows it and are anime-fans that it can't really be called a subculture any more. I buy most of my anime from the US, so do many others. All stores that have anime in Sweden usually have a big shelf of region 1 titles. (Regionfree players are not outlawed here.) And some Region 2 from England, wich is just as expensive. Region 2 is Europe and Japan by the way. But as regionfree players are common most people still get their anime from the US as the prise is usually about 15-25$ cheaper than Japanese DVDs.

Allthough region 1 anime can be very expensive due to import-taxes and the like. People here download alot of anime, and most of those who can afford to buy an occasional title do so. I am rather sure that these sales have alot to thank to fansubs, as the general idea over here is that you should be allowed to try something on for size before you buy it. And if you can't afford it anyway most think that sure, they don't get any income if i download, but they wouldn't if i didn't either, so it doesn't really matter.

There you have it. I am not 100% sure i know exactly what the european fandom is like. But i'd like to think that my guess is an educated one.
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mufurc



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:08 pm Reply with quote
A little input from another international fan... (from Hungary)

LordRobin wrote:

Or else come clean and admit that you're simply there to provide an outlet for the cheap and impatient to get their free anime.


The cheap, the impatient and the foreigner who's stupid enough to live in a place where anime is not hot, and probably won't even get lukewarm for years. (I mean, even Dragonball and Pokemon couldn't make it here...)

I don't say people here don't buy anime - but I can only say what ÄlveKatt already said: only those buy who can afford it, and even they only occasionally, and only because they've seen the fansubs before and love the series/movie/etc. Fansubs DO help to popularize anime here, and fansubbers are generally respected as helpers of the fandom, who make it possible for us to see anime we wouldn't have a chance to see otherwise.

If you honestly want these codes to be fair and useful for EVERYONE, you should sit down, and reconsider them to be fair towards anime fans all around the world. What WOULDN'T work:
- "find yourselves a translator and translate anime to your own language!" No reason to do so. English is a common language on the internet - why make a, say, Hungarian translation of an anime when the audience would understand it just as well in English, and an English translation would help out fellow fans in, say, Sweden, Italy, Spain, etc?
- "buy US releases!" see above. Too damn expensive, and people need money to buy food, clothes, pay rent and stuff.
- "learn Japanese!" I hope I don't need to explain this one.

By the way, as I wrote before, I think it would be more useful to create ethical codes for those who download fansubs. Fansubbers exist because people download their work - no downloads mean no fansubs. So...
1) If you live in the US, don't download fansubs of anime that are licensed/known to be licensed in the near future. If you live in any other country where a certain title is licensed, don't download fansubs of that anime. SIMPLE.
2) If you download fansubs, don't download from groups whose main objective is to acquire fame by releasing the newest titles as fast as possible with crappy translations/encoding/etc. - be patient and WAIT for quality releases by quality groups. SIMPLE.

Of course rule 1) is quite redundant, since people already either observe it or not... But I think it would really help if more people could be convinced to be patient - groups like AJ would be effectively excluded from the fandom, and where an official release is due, people would wait for it. (Ah, sweet dreams... ^^;; )
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Coral Skipper



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 223
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:58 pm Reply with quote
Wouldn't work. People in the US will download any anime subtitled in English. Maybe foreigners could put up English fansubs on sites that are in their native language so that most Americans won't bother with them.
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Shouta



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:12 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Yes, I too think it's sort of a pipe dream. But as you said yourself, I think it's a nice idea and therefore deserves at least to be explored. And if the wording isn't to your satisfaction, then why don't you suggest an alternate wording?


I wish I had the time to do so. I'm busy with school, looking for work, and my hobbies (which include fansubbing). Maybe when I have the time I'll come up with something and pop it by. I'm only taking a small bit of my time to do some posts here.

Quote:
Well, this is a english-language website and the article is written in english, so I think it's normal to be english-centric. What is not so normal is that the article is too North-America-centric. I acknowledge this but I don't think I could have written it any differently since I'm from Canada, so I'm not familiar with the issues that oversea fans might have. In order to make this code of ethics more international, it would require the input of international fans.


Got me there. While it is an English site, the internet itself is like an international community and I'd love more sites to address the entire anime world instead of just the language group that it writes in. On the other hand, it might sound like the globalization ideology is becoming more prominent (which I don't agree with). :p

Quote:
This is all true, but I just wish there were more fansubbers that loved old series. Like I said previously, this isn't about FORCING anyone. There isn't any way to force a fansubber to do a project he has no interest in. But I do think it's worthwhile to ENCOURAGE older series. Just encourage people to look at older stuff and maybe they'll realize there's a few hidden gems still left.


Of course, I was just poking you guys about the direct wording of the article. I'd personally LOVE to see interest in series that are obscure to be greater but with the anime community being so young (as evident by the number of newer fans floating around on IRC and even to an extent on this forum) it's a lot harder to find fans from previous generations. Heck, I only know a few digisubbers that have a genuine interest in older material other than myself. The generation idea is something I won't into though since it's a bit of a tangent and someone else's idea Wink

Quote:
Well, you got me there! But still, if you see a series that's already fansubbed, wouldn't you rather pass it on to your friends rather than go through all the work of fansubbing it yourself?


If I think it's a series that they did well I probably would. It still wouldn't change my intent to sub a series though because I love to do it. I just wouldn't compete.

Quote:
I agree 2a was sort of a stretch. But that was part of the point. As is said in the article, the guidelines were made much more stringent than the unwritten ethics. The idea is to push for ultra-ethical fansubs. The reasoning behind 2a is that many *many* fansubbers go for the ultra-cool series that you just know are going to be picked up by the US companies. Wolf's Rain, Last Exile, Scrapped Princess, .hack, Full Metal Panic... it's OBVIOUS those were going to or will be licensed. And for those that don't get licensed, waiting until the end of the series isn't that bad. Well, like I said, it's a stretch. It's not for nothing that I called this a "holy grail" of ethical fansubbing (in the sense that it's almost impossible to respect *all* of the rules)


Like I said, we really can't read the minds of the domestic companies here and while we can assume, it's still an assumption. Also, sometimes obvious isn't exactly that obvious. I learned that one a long time ago Wink

Quote:
It seems you were mostly talking about translation quality. 3c is about audio/video. While I agree with all of your points, it seems to me that trying to match DVD quality in fansubs is just an excuse to say "I don't need the DVD since the fansub has the same quality".


I probably come across as so (since it's my main area of experience) but I do speak about audio and visual quality some as well. The idea is for a measuring stick (like I mentioned in another paragraph) for fans to use to grade domestic companies. Without a reference point, nobody can spot specific errors right?

Quote:
Well OF COURSE you can't respect 4a is you don't know it's American-produced. But honestly, how many companies actively hide their involvment? With the tiniest bit of research, you should be able to know if a US company funded an anime. How many people subbed Ninja Scroll, and yet it was no secret that it was funded by Urban Vision.


I'm pretty informed most of the time and I really didn't know about Ninja Scroll TV being financed by UV until several weeks after the show started airing. While I should probably research a bit more companies should also make it more obvious of their involvement, to the point of spreading it around circles really quickly. Heck, I didn't know ADV apparently had a hand in BGC2040 being produced until recently.

Quote:
No, 6c doesn't "assume" anything. I'm very well aware that most fansubbers already respect this unwritten rule, and that's why it's in the article.


Meh, tiredness prevails with my response there.

Quote:
It's really an ego boost to see a nick that could be anyone's in the credits? Well, to say the truth, 6a was prompted by a bunch of recent fansubs where they seem to put more effort on the credits than on the show itself. Credits that pulse, fade and glow, displayed as if they were a translation of the real credits (as if the fansubber any anywhere near the kind of merit that the original creators did). Credits that really draw attention to themselves and blot out the opening animation. There's a difference between ego and over-inflated ego.


Oh yes, at least for me it's a slight ego boost. *sees his ego meter go through the roof*

It's not just my own work that I want to apply my name to but it's also a reference for people that want to know who did what or who to speak to. While I agree websites should post info to, some of us don't have one we can maintain and update. Putting our names on the creds is the only way to let people who know worked on what. Still, it was a common practice during the trad days.

I do definitely agree with the overtly flashy subber credits which I've always been fiercely opposed to. There's a strong contingent of digisubbers that are opposed to it including myself. I can certainly see why the clause was put there. It just seems to me to be a bit of an overreaction. Again though, I'm poking at the wording. I definitely understand your concern.

Quote:
I don't think I know more about fansubbing than you, but I don't need to have made fansubs in order to know about fansub ethics. You think you somehow have more right to talk about this than the rest of us? That having made fansubs somehow makes you "better"? Well, see my previous point about independant viewpoints.


Pulling out a little arsehole in me, I do think that making fansubs qualifies a person a bit more than just hanging with and being a fansubber viewer for a long time. I certainly agree that people will have points that aren't fansubbers but it's not quite the same. Not being a fansubber means that someone has experience the code of ethics directly and experiencing directly changes your viewpoint drastically.

To relate, it's like a war. Reading and discussing a war is very different from actually participating in it. Being on the battlefield will change people's views because of firsthand experience. In the same regard, I think once you have fansubbed for awhile, you definitely get a better understanding of how the ethics have worked in relation to actual subbing.


Quote:
In fact, increasing the number of foreign-language fansubs would be a good thing, because it allows fansub groups to re-do titles that previously were considered "fansubbed". Now you can go back and re-master Marmalade Boy in Finnish, because there is no announced license for Finland. Heck, sub something in Latin and revive the dead language. Wink


Definitely agree that there should be more fansubs in other languages. The problem is the translation which I won't get into because of the length of the topic.

Quote:
As such, fansubbers should not be doing 800x600 hq encodes of series. Likewise, anime companies shouldn't be making DVDs that look like Wings of Honneamise, regardless if it's an issue with the video master or with the video encode


Quote:
Traditional fansubbing is all but dead, so I'll ignore it as well.


Essentially, but I was addressing the directness of the article like I mentioned. Distribution now is a bit different but I still agree that tossing a buck or two to help subbers or distributers (for people not on the broadband wagon) isn't much.

I really must be missing downloads because I haven't seen anything 800x600 lately. The max I see file res is 640x480 if not a little smaller.

Quote:
Check the credits; if there's an English name you can probably google for it. "Henry Goto" "anime" will turn up results linking him to Pioneer.


Perhaps it's a bit of the American in me but I really don't find English names in credits in other languages to be odd myself. I think it's kind of cool but I don't equate it with being financed or made by Americans. Just my way of thinking perhaps. It's the same when I watch American sitcoms and see Japanese names or something. I don't equate it with being Japanese financed.

Quote:
Dallas Operator 7G simply used his pseudonym, and put it at the end of the series, not over any Japanese staff member's name.

Other old groups such as PSSFS (a university SF/anime club) went as far as translating the staff member's names for some of their internal releases.

Also, a number of older groups used to put their logo at the beginning of the tape as identification, rather than put their names in the opening credits.

I think this is, once again, what Dan is referring to, although I'll let him defend it better on his own time.


You see staff member name's being translated a bit more often with digisubs now. Still not prominent but it's a step. Also, the format of which subbing has changed. It's not analog/VHS subbing anymore and the way it's done and how the credits are put need to be different. Unlike trad subbing, episodes can be downloaded individually in digisubbing and you can't really toss creds at the beginning of a tape or at the end of the series since the control of episodes isn't on chunks and on a hard media.

Also, a lot of older groups did put credits in their titles too, it wasn't uncommon back then.

I have my own personal preferences to how things should be fansubbed but I don’t think this is really the place for it or at least the right thread.
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Ghost



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:37 pm Reply with quote
Quote by Ghost:
…So you never fansubbed. Therefore you wouldn’t understand and you are commenting from the outside.

[quote="Cookie"]
Quote:

No, I think I'm as qualified as you to discuss how fansubs have evolved over the years, because I've spent 5 years talking to the old fansubbers, listening to their thoughts and feelings on the matter. 5 years of sitting in an IRC channel with some of the biggest names in the fansub industry does that to you; you hear about when they started, about how they felt about certain distributors, other groups, the increasing speed of translations and everything else.

Also, the fact that I myself never I never put a VHS tape into a VCR and digitized the film, or used SSA, or bought a GenLock or timed a tape via a timer bar doesn't mean anything. I don't own an Amiga and I've never needed to use Flask... but I do know the technology and what goes into the process. While it's not entirely fansub related, I _AM_ translating several novels from Japanese into English, most notably the original Record of Lodoss War novels. They aren't intended for public distribution, and you know what? That suits me just fine. I'm still _CREATING_ a product the exact same way a quality fansubber creates a fansub.. slowly, making sure my work is correct, doing what I can when I can.


...Not trying to minimize your experiences, but I’ve been into fansubs for 14 years and subbing for 3.5 years and I can tell you that no matter how much who you speak to on thoughts of the industry, distribution, and other groups it isn’t the same as experiencing it. That's just like me saying I’m talking to DVD authors and some big shot engineers, until I master one myself, I can’t relate.


Cookie wrote:
Quote:

Traditional fansubbing is all but dead, so I'll ignore it as well.


The traditional fansubbers aren’t on the hot seat as digisubbers, but the ones who are left, have move to DVD-R. Anyway, that’s another topic.


Quote:

Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved. Think about it: asking a fansubber to define his own code of conduct would be like asking the movie industry to define what is right for children to see. OF COURSE they would define the standard as loosely as possible in order to reach as wide an audience as possible. I'm sorry, but even if it's subconsciously, being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics. And the idea here was not to create an easy code but to create an ultra-ethical one.


Oh? So why would industry people and newbie fans define what fansubber ethics should be? That's like George Bush Jr. writing an article about how to survive in poverty but never been in poverty himself.

You think ethical fansubbers would be soft? Uh... Okay...


[quote=ANN Article]
Quote:

1a. At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.


[quote=aceleader]
Quote:

WTF? You mean to tell us we have to sub something we're not interested in? I have to justify my own personal existence?!


Quote:

There, see? You choose the easier road rather than stay true to the real purpose of fansubs. I agree that the wording "justify his or her existence" was perhaps a bit strong, but the idea is there: if you claim not to be one of those l33t day-0 fansub kidz, prove it by subbing an older series.


That's not taking the easy road that's refusing to listen to BS. Many fansubbers have and still fansub older titles. We don't have to prove anything to anyone but our ownselves.

Quote:

First of all, the ethical guidelines only apply to distribution; if you love subbing modern anime, go for it.. but if you're going to distribute it, you should also show your fans that there's more to anime than just the latest thing in Japan.


[Quote=Ghost]
Quote:

The author said “fansubber” not distribution, in which there’s a difference. No one should justify their existence to anyone subbing an obscure or older title. Like always, if you want to know about a particular series or subber, just look on the fansubber database.


Quote:

Oh for the love of God grow up. Stop nitpicking at words. If you only fansub and don't distribute (basically, if you're doing this for you and your friends), for all intents and purposes you might as well not exist. You're not even a blip on the radar screen of fansubs. If you read the article, it should be OBVIOUS that this is about *visible* fansubbers, those that distribute their anime.


Wait a second! Let me tell you something fanboy, don’t even speak to me like that unless you want to be flamed! Even though, we’re in disagreement, show me the respect that I’m showing you.

When you write an article on ethics in fansubs that’s flammatory, it should be OBVIOUS to have it reviewed, analyzed and discussed.


[Quote=Ghost]
I do know a fansubber who’s subbing Chibi Maruko-chan. Moreover, you have to consider that several old series are out of print and very difficult to obtain.


Quote:

There, see? You choose the easier road rather than stay true to the real purpose of fansubs. Just because it's difficult to obtain it means it shouldn't be fansubbed? On the contrary I believe that, unlike subbing a title that any dozen groups can do, there is a LOT of merit in fansubbing something that fandom would never be aware of otherwise.


If you can't find it, why waste time when you can move on to other titles? Nevertheless, if it's found, it’s usually done. Moreover, many fansubbers sub older titles but since digisubs are in the forefront, no one really pays attention to that.

[quote="Cookie]
Quote:

this list fails to list all the domestic licenses... but there's still QUITE a few series that one can see have either never been subtitled, or were only partially subtitled by groups.

There are plenty of high-quality titles that simply have little chance to be released in the States due to their age. NG Lamune is one of the older series I enjoyed watching years ago, and I was very happy to see it again being fansubbed.


[Quote=Ghost]
Quote:

The list also fails to list ALL unlicensed anime.


Quote:

So? What's your point? You can still see there's a helluva lot un-licensed un-fansubbed anime. And there's even MORE un-fansubbed anime since, as you put it, the list fails to list all unlicensed anime.


Really, no kidding! The point is, it doesn't show ALL unlicensed anime. Ignoring the other since answered.

aceleader wrote:
Why do we have to prove our existence by working on something we either have no interest in, or even better yet, cannot find?

[Quote=Ghost]
Quote:

Again, easier said than done. Since the Japanese manufactures stop making LDs’ and several old titles that were originally VHS are out of print


Quote:

There, see? You choose the easier road rather than stay true to the real purpose of fansubs. (man, I'm never gonna get tired of cut-n-pasting that sentence). I agree with aceleader that there's no point in fansubbing something you don't like. But I'm sure there are older series that haven't been fansubbed and that are worth it. And if they're worth it, shouldn't they be brought to the attention of fandom? Isn't that the point of fansubs?



I agree with a lot of Aceleader’s points, but let me say this: Yes, back in the day, well the early 90’s to be exact, many fansubbers did do it to promote awareness. However, many loved doing it through the sheer joy of it. …and few who did it for profit. Today with tf, it's more love of it and that is bringing attention to fandom.

[quote="Cookie]
Quote:

The fansub viewing, even for the 20,000 weekly downloads of Naruto, is still just a fraction of actual anime fandom.


[Quote=Ghost]
Quote:

Exactly. That’s why I find that article pure fantasy and amusing.


Quote:

It's not because fansubs watchers are a minority that it absolves them from being ethical about it. I fail to see any connection.


Let me explain. As I said in the previous thread, commercial anime has increased, but so has piracy. UV just brought it to attention. It’s not just mIRC, but many sites that carry licensed and available titles and the article when speaking about ethics is pure fantasy and amusement.
ANN wrote:

5b. The fansubber should promote fansub ethics by displaying the code of conduct expected of the viewer somewhere in the anime (preferrably during the eyecatch), such as: (etc)

aceleader wrote:
Excuse me officer... are we supposed to use verbatim? Because I know of many groups that have these three phrases in various points of their encodes.

Yes, there *are* many groups that use these phrases, and that's good. This article wasn't intended to point out what fansubbers don't do, it's writing down and elaborating on the current unspoken code. And don't be an ass about using those phrases verbatim, use your judgment if you have any.

[Quote=Ghost]
Quote:

There were only a few fansubbers who did that sort of thing back in the day.


Quote:

Then that means it's not a problem if we put it in the code right?


This is in response to Cookie’s statement regarding fansubbers who used insults in the credits. The only one’s I knew of were a few NY based and BB. As I said, it was a minority.

[Quote=Ghost]
Quote:

No, you’re dictating an unrealistic view on how ALL fansubbers should conduct themselves.


Quote:

We're not dictating, we're *suggesting*. We're hoping against all hope that someone might agree that ethics are a good thing. That minimizing the impact of fansubs on the industry is a good thing. That fansubbing a more diverse array of anime is a good thing. Is that really too much to understand?


Um… fansubbers have done this. Again, this is with digisubbers. Fansubbers such as TG, AM, H/SG Odyessey, and VA have all done or doing diversity in anime. In life, people always go by their own ethics.

...But making "suggestions" on how one should conduct themselves is crazy. Is that really hard to understand?


[Quote =Ghost]
Quote:

That’s the reason why this person responded in that fashion. A matter of fact, I think even “ethical” fansubbers would have a problem with that article. I know it was aimed at Digisubbers but it affects ALL of us, especially the one regarding the fansubbers’ credits. What a joke… That article is anything but neutral. Credits are the only thing that makes a fansubber proud. Not to mention, if their work is viewed publicly at cons or anime clubs.


Quote:
Credits are the only thing that makes a fansubber proud? Please tell me that's a bad joke. If even ethical fansubbers care only for their ego, we're in sad straits indeed. And here I thought that making an anime you love available to the public is what should make a fansubber proud. Isn't it enough to put the name and URL of the fansubber in there? What's the point of adding credits like "translator: AvnGor666" and "timesetter: haxx0r_dud3"? So they can see their own nick and gloat? Maybe I'm just weird, but just knowing a fansub was made by me would be enough for my pride.


No,the article is a joke. No, what so sad is that industry people who make suggestions on something they know nothing about. Yes, fansubbers have egos and so do you and everyone else. Not to mention, if it’s a damned good fansub that rivals a commercial companies' translations. In which should never be, but happens... Moreover, even asking permission to use the fansubbers’ script. There’s nothing wrong with putting the names of members of a fansub group. It’s different scenario if a group is bashing one another. Another point by putting a fansubbers' name serves as protection against video pirates who’ll erase the fansubbers’ credits and sell the fansub as if it were the original video.

Quote by Ghost:
What about releasing scripts? It's a fansubbers' choice. Odyssey Anime was known as being one of the most ethical fansubbers and worked closely with a famous anime actor and they never released scripts. Neither does other oldschool fansubbers such as the Techno Girls and Sachi, (not really that OS, though).

Quote:

Well, I agree there's a problem with the distribution of scripts: any script kiddie (literally) could take it and slap together a fansub with his name on it. But on the other hand, it would be great if people could buy the R2 DVD and then watch it with the subtitle script overlaid on the screen. I'm not quite sure how to reconcile those two points.


Yeah, that’s been an on-going debate within the community for years.

[Quote=Ghost]
Quote:

In all fairness, I understand the problem with AnimeJunkies and other digisub download sites, there is a cause for concern. This is where the commercial companies should intervine. However, promoting censorship will only alienate oldschool fans/fansubbers alike.


Quote:

This isn't about cencorship, it's about ethics. We're not asking anyone to stop producing fansubs, we're just asking to do it in a way that's more mindful of the industry that creates those anime in the first place.


Actually, it is rules and your promotion of them. Well, I’m glad to hear that since you can’t stop them. You see, the majority of fansubbers always abided by the ethics code, even several digisubbers. I can only see newbies and industry personel agreeing to that editorial due to the fact they don't understand the history of fansubs. ...And this is the reason why a growing number of oldschool fans/subber/distros repel from the anime community thanks to the AoDs, now this one since the departure of JS. Sites such as these always seem to paint fansubbers with a broad brush.

We can argue about this until we're blue in the face. The simple fact is that the community has grown large with both positive and negative results. Again, the positive being the tremendous leap in sales of DVD and network and cable television. The negative being rampant piracy, which is difficult to control because soon as one is shut down, 10 more open. This is always has been the case of taking the good with the bad.


-Ghost-


Last edited by Ghost on Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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chibikit



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 4
Location: From the land beyond dreams...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:51 pm Reply with quote
Speaking of sharing scripts, anyone remember that little incident where one US distro company used, word for word, the translations and scripts of a fansub group without asking for permission? I can't remember the parties or anime title involved, but I assure you it did happen. Small wonder that a lot of fansubbers are loathe to share the scripts, yes?

About the credits thing:
Just because someone puts extra effort into making their credits look like part of the anime doesn't mean they're doing it for an ego-trip. The very fact that it looks non-intrusive also means that the watcher's viewing is not marred by some mean writing that looks out of place. That's a major plus for me, as long as they remain unintrusive. R-B's Witch Hunter Robin encodes are a good example of positive use of this technique. It also happens to be much harder to erase, and thus harder to pass off as genuine in the bootleg market. To me, that shows that the fansubber actually cares about the series enough to go through the extra effort.

Putting names into credits shouldn't be a big issue either. Sure, it's theoretically an ego booster, but it also serves to help newbies who want to be involved in fansubbing find the people who can actually teach it to them. And before you go off and say that guides to digisubbing are all over the Internet, let me just say that while they do exist, they are far from comprehensive, as well as being few and far-between.

About "the true spirit of fansubbing": Wasn't it supposed to be "to promote awareness and interest in anime"? Well, you definitely can't say that digisubbers haven't promoted said awareness and interest. Does it matter that they don't do older series if they can't find a source for them? Does it matter if they don't "prove themselves" to non-digital fansubbers by doing some ritual involving obscure anime every year? No, it shouldn't; they've already fulfilled "the true spirit of fansubbing" thing by doing what they usually do.

If this is just someone's way of trying to get digisubbers to sub some unknown title that they really really want to see, then why not go visit their websites or IRC channels instead? For the most part, digisubbers tend to be open to suggestions regarding such things. And just because they can't find a source to sub from shouldn't mean that they somehow fail this tenet of these ethical codes; as has been mentioned before (multiple times), sometimes there is just no possible way to get the raws.

About the internationality issue: As I mentioned before, not every anime fan lives in a land where it is easy to get legit DVDs, not only because of price but because of availability - thanks be to the geniuses who came up with region coding. Even if these DVDs are available, not all these fans can somehow obtain a region-free DVD player. In these cases, the only way they can hope to see a lot of series is through digisubs. While having non-US-based digisub groups work on native language translations is a good idea, it is far better to translate to the common language of the Internet (which is, of course, English) as this would allow more people all over the world to access these fansubs, thus promoting "the true spirit of fansubbing".

Yeah, this will probably tempt US fans from buying the R1 DVDs, thus reducing profits, but if the US distro companies really want to see improvement on sales, then make them available to non-US people. Do away with the region coding nonsense. Do a better job than the fansubbers who are actually putting out comparable, if not better-quality, work with nothing more than a fraction of your costs and development time. Make the DVDs worth the money you expect us to pay for them. Give us a viable alternative to the DVD-ripping groups you love to hate.

I'm starting to get sleepy and incoherent, so I should probably stop typing before I say more stupid things or fall asleep on my keyboard. By the way, if anyone wants to start an ethical code for US distro companies, you can consider my previous paragraph sggestions.
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king_micah



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 994
Location: OSU
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:39 pm Reply with quote
On regions:
Yeah they suck, but its easy to import players if your gonna import the anime. They can be easily hack on computers, and they are out of the hands of American anime companies. It Sony and the Billion Dollar corps that decide this. Also, when the American company does worldwide distro, then there will shortly be british region 2. I have not heard of any non-region two or one person here. You can either use American (well N. American) dvds or British and direct japanese imports.
In short, small American companies are not in charge of regions. Big multinationals are.
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aceleader



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:15 am Reply with quote
Well, first. Let me say thanks to Shouta for rephrasing a least most of my arguments in a less sarcastic tone. Next. I'll refrain from quoting much since it's getting to be a pain in the ass to copy and paste everything along with having people sift through the passes of indentations of quoting just to see my points, although like Dan said, I love pasting my own arguments to 1a too ;p Now since all we have come down to arguing about is clause 1a. of ANN's code of ethics....

Dan says that I'm, or rather we're, choosing the easier route over the true purpose of fansubbing. How so? Perhaps the rest of my comment got lost between the quoting and what not. Here's the rest of my arguement:

Quote:
You give me some old titles(and I don't mean just tell me the title, actually find out where to obtain it with my cash allowance), and if I find them sufficiently interesting to spend my x numbers of hours per week watching and working on it, I'll do it for the 'love of the anime' as you people at ANN so succinctly put. But I'm sure as hell not going to do it to prove my existance to you.


This will still hold true for me especially. I'll promote not only anime, but on a more specific level, I'll attempt to promote the shows that I want the US to invest in most, hence the digital fansubbing of a series that I'm interested in. If you find a flaw in that tell me. When you boil down your arguements, you call us in the purest sense, advertisers. Of course we'll advertise something that interests us the most and I believe that the older fansubbers did the same in some form or another. Someone refered to HnG and Guu as part of the obscure anime clause. Okay. I admit they ARE indeed obscure anime. But if you look carefully and you do take a small poll amongst the fansubbers, they'll say there's just no interest in them to actually do work on it.

Cookie also stated that s/he (i dunno, i'm not gonna presume here) has sufficient knowledge in the processes of fansubbing to know what s/he's talking about. Okay. Fine, i'll accept that too. It's possible, and I've seen enough people, in my 3+ years of fansubbing and even more years of being a quiet bystander, who just sit around, talking to fansubbers, and gain some unique perspective to the process and internal politics. Is it as deep as, say someone actually currently involved with the process? Not quite, but some of it still there. So how does Cookie and his/her knowledge tie into old and obscure anime? It's common knowledge (or at least it should be), that any group, or project for that matter, is lost without a translator of any sort. Love for the anime, or just for shits and giggles of a l33t h4ck0r (you can see my knowledge of l33t should just about prove that i'm not a script kiddy), a project doesn't happen without a translator. Now, a translator is easy to find right? Hardly. There are only a few few groups where the number of translators is greater than the numbers of the rest of the group. So lets assume for a second I have an old and obscure series that I am interested in, for example, Chibi Maruko-chan, or HnG. What are the chances that this translator is ALSO interested in it? We don't just casually coerce a translator to do something S/HE isn't interested in either. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my own argument, and perhaps my own argument didn't translate well past my own arguments, but everyone is assuming that every fansubber is fluent enough in japanese to just pull a script out of their asses and say it's correct. But the point is, even if I did have the money to go out and pruchase VHS masters or LDs (which I assure you I don't. It's up to you to believe if I'm just taking the easy road out by saying i'm broke. But if you consider a 10% tuition increase every year at my school....), what good does it do me if I can't find the translator that's also interested in it? Would I tell the translator who likes Gundam to help me work on some shoujo series? Another case in point, Tokyo Mew Mew. I love that series. Absolutely LOVE it. But why am I not working on it much less pounding out episode by episode on a regulary basis? I'm very very hard pressed to find someone who can put up with enough of the -nanoda and the ending to translate 40+ episodes for me. I can hear the next argument being "you translate it", or "hell that's just another Sailor moon clone. Why are you doing that". To the first phrase, believe me, I've tried and am still trying. To the second phrase, whoever says that in defense of ANN's ethics code is just running themselves into a contradiction. Okay, back to the quoting

Quote:
if you claim not to be one of those l33t day-0 fansub kidz, prove it by subbing an older series.


Hell I don't even know what 'l33t day-0' even is supposed to mean. But at the moment I don't have to prove anything by subbing an older or for that matter and obscure title. And if this is seems like an easy road out, I'd like to ask how. I don't want to spend the money to buy an older title? I'm a college student scrapped for cash, I can hardly buy the rest of Vandread Season 2 and I was barely able to scrap enough cash to buy the Crest/Banner of the Stars series let alone many other shows that I've enjoyed very much from watching the fansubs. (On the side note, if I don't go out to buy such titles, I'll inevitably be told I'm a heretic for 'not supporting American anime companies' and noone try to deny this little fact ... hmm). Sure, I'll buy the VHS Masters or the LDs, but quite frankly I don't have the money. c_julio also posted earlier that we're also whining taking the easy way out because we could just go out and easily download a raws from Japan, use virtualdub and SSA to subtitle a series. Okay, that's true. For those 3 things it doesn't cost me money. I admit that. But I have to spend money for my computer, from which to connect to the internet (which I might add is a hefty 9000 per year dorm fee since I"m at college and the 30 per month when I'm not). I also paid for all the Adobe products I use (there's another 1k or so). I also pay for the monthly elctric bill that keeps this computer on. I pay for alot of things that help me get to those 3 points that you mentioned, which are downloading raws from japan, virtualdub, and SSA. By not spending the effort to work on an older or obscure series I'm obviously not fansubbing for the love of the anime? Once again, I'd like to ask how this follows. I do what I can for the love of the anime. If you don't like it or you just can't see it, the old cliched phrase that you here all the time unfortunately applies, "deal with it". Quite frankly, who are you to say, i'm not doing this for the love of the anime? It just so happens that in a few cases my view don't line up with your views and then BAM, i'm branded as a heretic fansubber. I personally have a seriously problem that, if I don't look through the older serieses and work on something there, I'm either an idiot for not knowing about them, or a complete ass for passing them up as uninteresting, or a whiner if I can't buy it in order to subtitle it. Sure there's merit in subtitling an older series, but if I can't obtain it (and once again, someone will point me to ebay and i'll say once again, I can't afford it) why am I not a fansubber in the 'truest of senses' as the term has been used over and over again in this thread?

Now before everyone goes off quoting seperate parts of the argument I just posted here. Read the whole thing and then when you feel the need to pick apart something in it, then quote away and respond to it in regards to the whole 3 or 4 paragraphs as opposed to just the sentence you quote. It's already managed to happen with my previous post.

========

Murfuc brings up a good point about setting ethics for downloaders, and he is true in the fact that a few fansub groups wouldn't exist if they didn't see the 1000+ people in their IRC channels. These groups may, or may not be doing this for shits and giggles, and I'm not going to be presumtuous to claim that they are or aren't. But at the moment we aren't talking about the ethics of downloaders, and if I talk about this more, i'll just be accused of trying to draw attention away from the current topic, which is fansubber ethics.

========

People have brought up the points of international fansubbing. You guys are right, it is a problem that there aren't enough. In the french fansubbing community I know of a few french fansubbers that would like to see your help and support, but they're just not getting it for a number of reasons. The main one is that they have no 'home base' to work from except for the french IRC servers. So go out there and support them. As for the other lanuages out there.... Unfortunately, all I can say is... start finding someone who's good at japanese -> and start away. Many of us within the english (R1) community are branded as traitors within the digital fansubbing world if we give out licensed (or in some cases otherwise) scripts for use in other languages. If a series is licensed we are immediately flamed from not only within but from outside for the propogation of english subtitles on a licensed series (noone should be arguing this fact either. This type of critisism happens alot.) As for an unlicensed series, I strongly believe that a second generation (i.e .Japanese ->eng -> any other language) is bad on many fronts since japanese to any other median language usually loses some meaning that's inherent only to japanese. Going from the median language to your language is even worse since meaning is lost again. But that's beside the point. All I have to originally say about this topic is, find a Japanese -> <your language> translator that absolutely LOVES anime and start spreading the word in your region. And good luck (no sarcasm intended).

========

Next point. Digital fansub quality. No matter what you say or do to this, noone is going to listen to you. Internally, as Shouta has explained, we have very strict quality guidelines. Only the base of it includes 640x480, no macros(encoding lingo, sorry for those that don't know), readable subs, no spelling errors, impecable timing, impecable editing, impecable typesetting. And no matter what you say or do those base standard will never change. Sure some groups sacrifice here and there, but those base standards are still the same. If they're a little too high for you guy, one again, I'm sorry. But there's really nothing you can do about it. Shouta implied that it's a good measuring tool for companies. I agree and for the most part it is. Certain parts of ADV keeps in touch with the anime community and has explained in some forms or another, that it is in fact because of fansubs that their DVDs are becoming better.

========

I'm also wondering why there is a slow but continual distinction between 'fansubbing' and 'digital subbing'. Why is 'Traditional fansubbing is all but dead' as Cookie said. So if the medium of subbing has changed, why do the 'oldschool' have to hate the 'current'? If you don't, then why is the distinction even there? Forgive me if I'm obviously not seeing the rational between this distinction, but certainly do not assume because I was never part of the VHS mode of fansubbing, I'm not a 'fansubber' and begin treating me as such. There seems to be this little thought floating around that if you haven't touched a VHS, you've 'never really been a fansubber'. We're already being put into a bad light with such phrases as "Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved." and "being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics". This is all well and good that you think so. Like Shouta said about war, I think noone should be killing other people (no sarcasm intended either). But if you talk to the people you consider 'l33t day-0 fansub kidz', you'll find that we don't have the 'easy code' that you think we do. And unfortunately, for us, I think if you do compare them to your ideas of what fansubbing should be, you'll end up dismissing it as an easy code just because we are digital fansubbers.

========

Finally. It's not very comforting to see how AJ is instantly synonymous to fansubbing. For example Cookie's May28th post that I originally quoted. The arguments i've seen over and over for this ethics forum past my original past have ALWAYS included AnimeJunkies. Once again, don't use the actions of one group to assume the actions of the whole, nor should you be assuming that these 'evil fansubbers who do this for shits and giggles' are the majority of fansubbing. If you have a problem with one group, then direct your problems to them, and not to the rest of us as this code of ethics inadvertantly is. It seems that's all that happens now.


Last edited by aceleader on Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shouta



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:03 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I'm also wondering why there is a slow but continual distinction between 'fansubbing' and 'digital subbing'. Why is 'Traditional fansubbing is all but dead' as Cookie said. So if the medium of subbing has changed, why do the 'oldschool' have to hate the 'current'? If you don't, then why is the distinction even there? Forgive me if I'm obviously not seeing the rational between this distinction, but certainly do not assume because I was never part of the VHS mode of fansubbing, I'm not a 'fansubber' and begin treating me as such. There seems to be this little thought floating around that if you haven't touched a VHS, you've 'never really been a fansubber'. We're already being put into a bad light with such phrases as "Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved." and "being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics". This is all well and good that you think so. Like Shouta said about war, I think noone should be killing other people (no sarcasm intended either). But if you talk to the people you consider 'l33t day-0 fansub kidz', you'll find that we don't have the 'easy code' that you think we do. And unfortunately, for us, I think if you do compare them to your ideas of what fansubbing should be, you'll end up dismissing it as an easy code just because we are digital fansubbers.


I personally make quite a distinction (being on the tail end of traditional subbing and heading into digital subbing). There are very different methods and ideologies between the two that essentially separate them. The trad subbers are quite a different breed than most digisubbers. They're quite a bit more concerned with quality of work, correctness, and etc in comparison to most digisubbers. It costed them money to produce fansubs like they did (quite a bit more than most of us spend in the long run) and as such, they're quite a bit more patient. There was also the stronger prescence of wanting to find series that doesn't get attention. They did sub the latest and greatest anime from Japan but the emphasis wasn't quite the same as digisubbers whom only focus on that most of the time. It was also a much simpler time in terms of work. Nothing flashy or fancy, just enough for people to see these shows and keep it from being obtrusive.

That's a big difference with the average fansub group. Most of these groups are intent on doing new series and putting it out as fast as possible. As such, quality of work has gone down on the whole. There's also a huge emphasis on outdoing each other and compeition. As a result, we have groups like AJ who don't care about the anime but the leechers they get. A majority of the larger groups of like that and I can name only a true handful of groups that aren't like that. Hell the dependency on Chinese and Korean scripts has shot up because of the lack of patience in finding a real translator to do the work. There's a whole slew of other problems but I think you know ace. Besides, it'd take me more time to properly explain it all since I'd have to contemplate and synthesize a better explanation.
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Ghost



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:55 pm Reply with quote
Shouta wrote:
Quote:
I'm also wondering why there is a slow but continual distinction between 'fansubbing' and 'digital subbing'. Why is 'Traditional fansubbing is all but dead' as Cookie said. So if the medium of subbing has changed, why do the 'oldschool' have to hate the 'current'? If you don't, then why is the distinction even there? Forgive me if I'm obviously not seeing the rational between this distinction, but certainly do not assume because I was never part of the VHS mode of fansubbing, I'm not a 'fansubber' and begin treating me as such. There seems to be this little thought floating around that if you haven't touched a VHS, you've 'never really been a fansubber'. We're already being put into a bad light with such phrases as "Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved." and "being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics". This is all well and good that you think so. Like Shouta said about war, I think noone should be killing other people (no sarcasm intended either). But if you talk to the people you consider 'l33t day-0 fansub kidz', you'll find that we don't have the 'easy code' that you think we do. And unfortunately, for us, I think if you do compare them to your ideas of what fansubbing should be, you'll end up dismissing it as an easy code just because we are digital fansubbers.


I personally make quite a distinction (being on the tail end of traditional subbing and heading into digital subbing). There are very different methods and ideologies between the two that essentially separate them. The trad subbers are quite a different breed than most digisubbers. They're quite a bit more concerned with quality of work, correctness, and etc in comparison to most digisubbers. It costed them money to produce fansubs like they did (quite a bit more than most of us spend in the long run) and as such, they're quite a bit more patient. There was also the stronger prescence of wanting to find series that doesn't get attention. They did sub the latest and greatest anime from Japan but the emphasis wasn't quite the same as digisubbers whom only focus on that most of the time. It was also a much simpler time in terms of work. Nothing flashy or fancy, just enough for people to see these shows and keep it from being obtrusive.

That's a big difference with the average fansub group. Most of these groups are intent on doing new series and putting it out as fast as possible. As such, quality of work has gone down on the whole. There's also a huge emphasis on outdoing each other and compeition. As a result, we have groups like AJ who don't care about the anime but the leechers they get. A majority of the larger groups of like that and I can name only a true handful of groups that aren't like that. Hell the dependency on Chinese and Korean scripts has shot up because of the lack of patience in finding a real translator to do the work. There's a whole slew of other problems but I think you know ace. Besides, it'd take me more time to properly explain it all since I'd have to contemplate and synthesize a better explanation.


Shouta, How you are doing? Long time, no talk! Once again, you sure know how to paraphase!

If you want to do any translations, Let me know brother! Laughing

-Ghost-
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Ghost



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:58 pm Reply with quote
aceleader wrote:


I'm also wondering why there is a slow but continual distinction between 'fansubbing' and 'digital subbing'. Why is 'Traditional fansubbing is all but dead' as Cookie said. So if the medium of subbing has changed, why do the 'oldschool' have to hate the 'current'? If you don't, then why is the distinction even there? Forgive me if I'm obviously not seeing the rational between this distinction, but certainly do not assume because I was never part of the VHS mode of fansubbing, I'm not a 'fansubber' and begin treating me as such. There seems to be this little thought floating around that if you haven't touched a VHS, you've 'never really been a fansubber'. We're already being put into a bad light with such phrases as "Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved." and "being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics". This is all well and good that you think so. Like Shouta said about war, I think noone should be killing other people (no sarcasm intended either). But if you talk to the people you consider 'l33t day-0 fansub kidz', you'll find that we don't have the 'easy code' that you think we do. And unfortunately, for us, I think if you do compare them to your ideas of what fansubbing should be, you'll end up dismissing it as an easy code just because we are digital fansubbers.
========


There is a distinction. Analog Vs. Digital. In addition, the methods of subbing are different, also it's quality. However, Shouta went into more detail! Very Happy

I'm paraphrasing a fan here... but the continuation to publicy distribute/trade titles after licensing and availability was always here since the early days of fansubs. The difference is more advanced since it's in digital form. Hence, the new ethical code of Digisubbers.

It's not that oldschool hates "newschool" or current. I think hate is a strong word. I rather use disappointed. We find grievences with fans/fansubbers/distributors and the companies alike. The most being lack of respect which is evident here. ...not with you, persay, but overall.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to exclude you, I guess I got caught up in the heat of the moment. Very Happy

-Ghost-
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Shouta



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:52 pm Reply with quote
I'm actually looking for translators =(. Need to get work done on Dendoh more and the two or three more series we need to do as well as a few OVAs and a movie. =/.

Oh yeah, what the heck happened to the other board anyhoo? (you know what I'm talking about!)

Nevermind, I see it's back up. =b
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AchtungAffen



Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
Location: Sur, paredón y después
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:17 pm Reply with quote
A little input from intl fan: Argentina

Quote:
The main purpose of fansubs is to allow English-language fans access to obscure anime they would never see otherwise.


So, the main purpose of a fansub can't be to allow spanish-language fans, or italian-language fans to see anime? Speak english or die, seems to me.

Access obscure anime? No, that part isn't right. In some places, non obscure animes can't be seen otherwise, unless you have huge ammounts of money to import them from somewhere in the United States, the European Union or Australia. It should say, IMO "access anime wich they would never see by any other reasonable means". Because spending 200 bucks in a single DVD (even if its an 'American licensed') is not reasonable.

Quote:
At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.


What? Are you serious? At least once a year? A fansubber fansubs what he/she wants... please.

Quote:
A fansubber does the community no good by duplicating another's work.


I agree. Plagiating is the worst of all. But...

Quote:
Therefore, if a fansub of an anime is already available, the fansubber should devote his or her efforts to another series, unless said existing fansub suffers from an excessively bad translation.


And what about bad quality or any other molesful thing a previous fansub could have done... like what this anime fury did to Chobits, with that lousy encoding... or what some fansubbers do, adding plaques or things. Or if its not in the language desired, then what?

Quote:
Fansubs are not to be considered a substitute for owning a legal, English-language copy.


English language. Well. But, you never heard the word JUSTICE, did ya? Sometimes the 'licensed copy' is so bad, so lousy, so EDITED/CENSORED that Justice is required, and a fansub deserves to be done, and taken as a replacement for the lousy 'licensed' one. I will not let them stick their finger up my ass. If they just try it, I get a fansub.

Quote:
Do not distribute an American-licensed anime. Distribution must stop the instant a license is announced. Any distribution after that point gives the licensee legal cause to pursue the fansubber.


So, if its American-licensed is a sin... but if its licensed somewhere else it isnt???? What is this? Only its a law when its an 'American' law?

Quote:
Fansubs are not meant to compete with a professional product, therefore perfection should not be considered a goal. Small improvements in video quality or translation should not be considered justification to create another competing fansub.


Not considered justification? Then ok, I should let them stick the finger up my ass, and smile about it! Please... JUSTICE people. Because its licensed, it doesn't mean its better. If a fansub is better, I'll take the fansub. Why shouldn't I? If the guy who licensed it, didn't took the same effort as the fansuber, I should still choose licensed????
And something else.. What if I don't care about dubs and don't want to pay for a dub, or a DVD that has a dub as default audio track? Should I still have to see the dub credits, and not be able to watch the anime as it was originally? I refuse totally. I love Eva. I love Eva original. I will never stand to watch nor intro or outro with names that are not Eva to me, like "Tiffany Grant".... or worst... PLAQUES!! That thing is unforgivable (event thought they corrected it), those who put plaques on anime, deserve to be left to rot in hell.

Quote:
Fansubs are not meant to compete with a professional product, therefore the audio/video quality of a fansub should not attempt to match or better the quality of a professional DVD. In fact, a large filesize is a hindrance to the spread of a fansub and thus goes against the purpose of increasing awareness of a title. 175MB per 25-minute episode should be considered a maximum and 140MB a better choice.


Again... if the one who licenses it doesn't do a good job, should I still choose him? 175mb? WTF! Long live the justice-dispenser 400 megs AC3 raws!

Quote:
Do not fansub an American-produced anime. Even if the company didn't officially announce a "license" or a release date, we know it's going to come to the US.


Again, if its a law in the US its a universal law. This is the biggest hypocrisy ever. So, why should it be unethical to break the copyright law in Japan, but not in the US, if the anime isn't licensed? Aren't those laws... international? Where's the ethic there? I thought ethics required something called "equality" (was it?)

Quote:
You make fansubs voluntarily, out of your own free time, because you are a fan. Never for personal profit or recognition. If at any time you feel you should be compensated for the work you've done then you're probably doing this for all the wrong reasons.


Yes, that's right. I fully agree.
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