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Revision to Fansubber Ethical Code?


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Laughing Hyena



Joined: 11 Jul 2002
Posts: 136
Location: Oxnard in sunny Cailforina
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:21 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Ah, the "good old times" when anime was subbed on VHS, and all the good fansubbers followed the code... I remember groups asking for ridiculously high amount of money for tapes or putting 1-2 episodes on a tape... there were (are) groups and individuals selling VHS fansubs, along with copies of official releases... etc. And I remember people BUYING them instead of buying the official videos. So I think it's quite a bit of hypocrisy to say that those who fansub to VHS or support VHS subs are ethical and fully understand the nature of fansubbing while digisubbers and digisub downloaders aren't.


Coming probably from someone who doesn't live close by a post office and can get a shipping price guide, am I right? Yes or no?
I tend to ship off alot of things, so I have a good idea of shipping prices. So don't buy a tape from someone you think is too high. But on the other hand, if you don't know the price of tapes, shipping, ink, and etc.: Your cheap even when it comes to fansub tapes.

Also there's an old practice of trading tapes for another one and if anything is wrong with the tape you get send it back to get a free one.
As for the 1 and 2 esp.s for one series: This is a good idea.

I've never had problems with my tapes, and I don't find them troublesome at all.

You are right about having a code for people downloading them. There is already one in place if you buy a fansub tape.

I will be recording over my tapes for example and buying a DVD that is coming out pretty soon. Also it's good to discourage selling of any tapes on ebay. If you download fansubs, make sure to take them off your computer after 24 hours and do not burn them on CDs.
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Annie-Mei



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:29 pm Reply with quote
ÄlveKatt wrote:
Your ethical thinking is so onesided.

What about the arguement about competition? A very valid one if you ask me. Just look at the shoe inustry for a good example. By silent agreement they only make shoes that will last one year at most before they quite littarary fall apart.


Oh that is such bullshit. Sorry, but if you're gonna believe conspiracy crap like that, then I have a bridge to sell ya in New York.

I've owned my pair of Nike's for the last 3 years. My Sketchers are going on 5 and I've only had to buy 2 pairs of shoes in the last year because I went back to my old hobby of motorcycle riding (different kind of shoes needed).. I've yet to buy any shoe because "it fell apart". Hell, my slippers (flip-flops) are 7 years old, and they are still as good today as when i bought them.

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And yes, it was more expensive to research materials that break after a certain amount of tear, but they still make more money as you need to renew your shoes every other year.


::cough cough::bullshit:::cough::cough

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With a digital medium like this one have a unique ability to compete with the companies, forcing them to produce something of alot higher quality if they want to sell.


The only competion commercial companies have is with other commercial companies. IF one company starts putting more eps at cheaper prices, you can expect the other companies to do each other out.

HOWEVER, fansubs are a direct competition by eating into their POTENTIAL sales. It has nothing to do with quality. It has everythng to do with "well this is free / and our isn't".


Quote:
The point is that the companies most often have very little ethics about giving you a highquality product. In the case of anime fansubbing is one very good way to force them to give us our money worth.


::cough:::cough::bullshit bullshit::cough::cough::

You really know how to spew the crap dont ya?

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The copyright laws seem to be all about giving the company more money and haveing the consumer give money for their products no matter how crappy those products are.


Isn't that what the copyright laws are for. To compensate the copyrigth holder of something they created, shold it make money? I wish everything was free, but I dont live in a fantays world. IF I Make something and I want to sell it, and I dont want Joe Somebody to make money off of something I created, I will as god as my witness, protect my rights under law to make sure that he will never make a red cent off of my hard work.
You think anime grows on trees?


Quote:
Democracy means rule of the people. But if the peole only stand and look on with empty eyes you don't have democracy. Democracy actually requires some effort from the people.


Democracy also means that those who should be rewarded (either financially or just in recognition) should deserve what they get. Not have it stolen from them.
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:33 am Reply with quote
Annie-Mei wrote:
Democracy also means that those who should be rewarded (either financially or just in recognition) should deserve what they get. Not have it stolen from them.


No, actually, that's more of a communistic ideal.

Democracy is about the will of the group. Sometimes, people get shafted by that collective will - when a jury wrongly convicts a murder suspect for example. But that is irrelevant; the outcome was based upon the opinion of the majority, and thus democracy's principles have been upheld.

In truth, all propaganda aside, I think the pro-fansubs stance is probably the more democratic of the two angles. We'd all like free anime, right? And thinking of how many anime fans there are in this country, versus the number of anime production/dubbing studios, I'm thinking that anime DVDs would all be free if it came down to a straight-up vote.

But then again, democracy isn't always the appropriate way to make decisions. As with the wrongly convicted murder suspect, the opinion of the majority can be wrong. The will of the group would most likely shaft hard working individuals out of the financial compensation and recognition they deserve.

Smile
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Ramen



Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 346
Location: San Jose
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:29 am Reply with quote
Annie-Mei wrote:
Democracy also means that those who should be rewarded (either financially or just in recognition) should deserve what they get. Not have it stolen from them.

Okay, just to veer this even more off topic, I think you've confused Democracy with Capitalism. Democracy is a political system where majority rules. Capitalism is doing something, and being rewarded for it. Basically what you said.

Case wrote:
No, actually, that's more of a communistic ideal.

See above. Communism is more like "everyone gets a reward, weather they deserve it or not."

Okay, now back on topic (sort of)....

So far, both sides have argued their points (some well, some not so well). However, the one thing lacking is actual solid proof to back up anyones statements. I've already stated that I don't think that fansubs are needed anymore to help promote anime, and that I think it does more harm than good. However, I admit this is due to my own personal experience as an anime fan, and not based on any hard facts.

For example, the statement has been made that as the fansub community grew larger, the popularity of mainstream anime grew proportionately. I, for one, would be interested in seeing some numbers on this. Next, the argument was made that this correlation proves that fansubs were responsible for the the growth of anime. I won't dispute this outright, but how do you know it was not the other way around? In other words, can you say for sure that it was not the popularization of mainstream anime that caused the growth of the fansub community?

This is just one example of many. It seems to me that we would be better served trying to find the facts, and not just scream at each other. So, can anyone provide something concrete? It has been stated that the industry won't release numbers, but there has to be something out there to go on, right? Perhaps the pursuit if this truth can be one good thing we take out of this discussion (or maybe it's just a pipe dream). Anyway, comments?
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2069
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:10 am Reply with quote
Unless we get hard numbers from the companies themselves, we won't have an accurate answer to the question.

My thoughts on this is something I posted on another thread, take it as you will:

Quote:
I think the one thing that the companies licensing the series look at is that for now, the "good" found in this far outweighs the "bad." Emerje made a mention of 15,000 people downloading eps of Naruto who will store the series and never buy it. I suspect the companies are looking at the expected 30,000+ addtional sales they will generate because of the popularity of the series. They see instant sales because it was first seen fansubbed. I have heard companies mention at anime conventions that they follow the fansub market in making some of the decisions on what they consider licensing. (ADV, AnimeWorks, etc.)

Would they eventually catch up to the number of DVD's sold when it first hit street date? Probably, but it would have taken much longer to do so. The instant sales are far better for their profits. Although P9 did do well, it didn't do as well intially as series that were already popular upon release due to prior exposure and word of mouth. And let's face it, almost every company/corporation will state at one time or another that word of mouth, and not general advertising, is what generates the most sales. Word of mouth is the most powerful tool that any company has. The one thing going for fandom however, is that they get to start the word of mouth when it comes to anime. They are in a unique position because of this.

Most of the people I know will make the decision of buying the series by first having seen it fansubbed. In an anime club that I've been president of for about 3 years now, we have shown several series that because of exposure, will have more purchases made because of it. (We also have it in our bylaws that once a series is licensed, we will NOT show fansubs of it.) The comic book store owners, who sponsor us, ask questions of myself and some others in determining what to order so that the casual fans, (non anime club members) will have it more readily available when they hear about it.


And this has gotten fairly off topic of the ethics regarding fansubs:

So I'll add something (I hope) to the actual topic at hand. You may have seen the article in regards to the legality of fansubs and Berne convetion earlier. I can certainly understand your concerns about giving out scripts, and the reasons why you would not want to do that. The question is, because of the translation possibly being considered an original work, could you in fact get that copyrighted? And if so, would it be worth giving out your script at that point, given the costs of getting something copyrighted? (Probably not, but I wonder if it's worth giving some thought to.)
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cookie
Old Regular


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 2459
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:57 am Reply with quote
mufurc wrote:
Because there are not THAT many translators around. In most countries (but at least in my country) anime fandom is not old enough to have anime fans who are fluent in Japanese. (I know only two people who like anime and speak Japanese well enough to translate. Not to mention the "fandom" means 300 people at most...)


You know 2 who speak Japanese well enough to translate, in a group of 300... in a population of 37 million? I don't know about the TV channels specifically in your country, but I know there are several channels in Colombia and Peru that I would assume extend their broadcast range down into Argentina that play anime on TV. In fact, historically one would look to South America as being the hot-spot for anime on television, not North America.

I think there are more fans out there, just that they might not have made their voices heard. There's probably plenty of interest.. you just need to go out and find'em.

Quote:
Wouldn't it be much, much easier to translate it into a language everyone can understand (English)?


It certianly would.. I'm not even arguing about NOT translating it into English anymore -- it's the English distribution that needs to stop.

Since you speak English fluently, and probably can speak Spanish (or is it Portugese in your Argentina?) fluently as well (given your area), Why not help translate the scripts into spanish, and then give them back the spanish script to sub and distribute?

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you can buy anime, manga or even Japanese CDs/DVDs/etc. in your local Japanese bookstores; if you don't buy something, you can see it in your local anime club; you can see preview for it on anime cons, where you can also buy doujinshi and stuff; etc.


Well, there is a local place for myself that sells ~20 different titles, mostly TokyoPop, with an occasional Japanese release in the mix. To travel to the "local" Japanese bookstore, I would have to travel 5 hours by car (there might be one in Philly; I don't know. I know there's a few in NYC)

.. but I, like everyone else, can buy via the Internet.. and I do.

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No local anime club that shows movies, series, etc., only a loose group of friends who like to come together and talk about anime, among other things. No anime cons.


You can sit and complain about them or you can DO something about them. Most "clubs" are nothing more than friends getting together. The term "club" in many cases is only because they are University students, and thus need to get permission from the companies to show anime.

Otakon, the 2nd largest convention in America, started out as a bunch of friends who wanted to show that they could run an anime convention.

When AX _and_ Otakon both started up, they LOST money initially. In other words, the cons were too small to support themselves. Once again, people spread the word, took a closer look at how they could more efficiently run their operation, and by their 3rd year, both AX and Otakon were in the black.

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I'd really like people to consider why would it be fair that people in other countries should be deprived of anime just because it's available for people in North America.


Again, you are no more deprived than I am when it comes to anime. You believe you are, but the fact of the matter is that you aren't. Anything I buy can be purchased online.

anime castle, roberts anime corner store and animenation all support Money Orders and other methods of payment than Credit Cards.

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Btw, in places like where I live, fansubs DO help popularizing anime, and don't hurt the English market, since those who can afford it will buy US releases.


The problem isn't the foreign anime community.. the problem is the domestic anime community, because the domestic fans download the same thing that YOU download, and by doing so remove themselves from the North American market.

Quote:
By the way... I don't know just how much fansubs affect DVD sales in North America. As I see, they don't hurt the English market too much - those who really love a series will surely invest money in it, and those who don't buy DVDs, wouldn't buy them anyway - they'd just copy them, or rent them, or something.


I'm sure this will come up in discussion at Anime Expo in ~3 weeks. Unfortunately, there aren't many series that were pulled by all fansubbing groups while it was in production.. so it's hard to tell what fansubs may or may not have done.
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ÄlveKatt



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:48 am Reply with quote
Annie-Mei wrote:

Oh that is such bullshit. Sorry, but if you're gonna believe conspiracy crap like that, then I have a bridge to sell ya in New York.

I've owned my pair of Nike's for the last 3 years. My Sketchers are going on 5 and I've only had to buy 2 pairs of shoes in the last year because I went back to my old hobby of motorcycle riding (different kind of shoes needed).. I've yet to buy any shoe because "it fell apart". Hell, my slippers (flip-flops) are 7 years old, and they are still as good today as when i bought them.


I must admit that i have not researched it thoroughly. I heard it on the news a while back. Also, i would like to know where you buy shoes, and if they have OnLine ordering. I can't say i share your good experince in shoes.

Quote:

::cough cough::bullshit:::cough::cough


I like you too.

Quote:
HOWEVER, fansubs are a direct competition by eating into their POTENTIAL sales. It has nothing to do with quality. It has everythng to do with "well this is free / and our isn't".


I don't see your point? That's the whole point of trying before you buy. If it doesn't fit you don't buy. I am not saying all are this honest, but i believe that in the long run they earn more on the honest than they loose on the dishonest. And if they don't it's because they offer an uninteresting product. In my mind that is more just.

Quote:

Quote:
The point is that the companies most often have very little ethics about giving you a highquality product. In the case of anime fansubbing is one very good way to force them to give us our money worth.


::cough:::cough::bullshit bullshit::cough::cough::

You really know how to spew the crap dont ya?


Why do you say that?

Quote:

Isn't that what the copyright laws are for. To compensate the copyrigth holder of something they created, shold it make money? I wish everything was free, but I dont live in a fantays world. IF I Make something and I want to sell it, and I dont want Joe Somebody to make money off of something I created, I will as god as my witness, protect my rights under law to make sure that he will never make a red cent off of my hard work.
You think anime grows on trees?


No, the copyright laws are to protect from someone else profiteering on your work. Compensation comes from selling a good product. It does not force consumers too buy your product if they don't have any use for it. In a cloathes store you get to try the product on for size. To do that is, or should be, a right in a democratic country. I had never bought Escaflowne without seeing some of it first. The same goes for Crest of the stars and banner of the stars. And most all of the anime i own.

I know very well that anime doesn't grow on trees and that you shouldn't expect to get anything for free. I have spent alot of money on official anime myself. Often more than i should have. You make it seem as you take for granted that was something i would never do. Why do you think that we shouldn't have the right to neither expect a good product nor trie it on for size?

Quote:

Quote:
Democracy means rule of the people. But if the people only stand and look on with empty eyes you don't have democracy. Democracy actually requires some effort from the people.


Democracy also means that those who should be rewarded (either financially or just in recognition) should deserve what they get. Not have it stolen from them.


People have corrected us about that democracy statement;
However, correct definition of democracy or not, i agree with the idea. The point i am trying to make is that it should go two ways. Just as you are obligated to pay for what you get the seller is obligated to give you something that is worth what you pay.

If the seller doesn't let you try the product so that you know that the value it's priced at equals the value you will have of it i can't see how you are obliged to give him anything. You may not steal it off course.

As you probably understand after reading this post, but i feel the need to point it out anyway, i do not advocate stealing anime. I advocate the consumers right to try before you buy.
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3620
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:08 am Reply with quote
Let's not make this into a continuation of the AJ thread ok? The pro- and anti- fansubs arguments have been run into the ground. This is a thread about the proposed new ethical code. I don't want to hear another word on whether you think fansubs are a good thing or a bad thing.
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mufurc



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:01 am Reply with quote
Laughing Hyena wrote:
Coming probably from someone who doesn't live close by a post office and can get a shipping price guide, am I right? Yes or no?

I don't know what this has to do with what I wrote...? I was merely trying to indicate that "VHS fandom" is not better than "digisub fandom," as both have their share of "unethical" groups/individuals. I wasn't bashing VHS subs/subbers in general, was I? Chill...

Cookie wrote:
You know 2 who speak Japanese well enough to translate, in a group of 300... in a population of 37 million?

No no no.... I'm not the Argentine, I'm the Hungarian. Anime smile;;; Here we only have anime when a German channel decides to show one (with German dub - many people don't speak German here, but well, at least it's anime...). German channels used to show anime like Sailormoon, Versailles no bara, Candy Candy, Saber Rider, and othes, but for some reason they cut back on anime in the last 3-4 years. A local channel tried to show Dragonball and Sailormoon about 5 years ago, but Dragonball got banned and Sailormoon wasn't popular enough, so it all went down the drain. And with exceptionally retarded laws regarding international payments (no money orders, no checks, etc.), it's hard to order stuff online unless you have a well-paying job.

Cookie wrote:
Since you speak English fluently, and probably can speak Spanish (or is it Portugese in your Argentina?) fluently as well (given your area), Why not help translate the scripts into spanish, and then give them back the spanish script to sub and distribute?

You mean translating from English to <native language>? Well, under the current circumstances, this would be an easy way to solve the problem. But it seems this solution is not very successful here in the case of anime (though it's very popular in the case of manga).

The problem is, again, language and the audience. People here won't download something in Hungarian if they already have it in English - and people who translate scripts are translating them from the English scripts they have. Also, I don't know about other countries and fandoms, but here translating from English to Hungarian is primarily for promotional reasons, that is, we can promote anime only by showing it in clubs, and we can show them in clubs only if we provide Hungarian translations. But no-one actually translates anime to Hungarian to distribute it. It's like Catch-22: there are no Japanese->Hungarian translators, so people can only translate to Hungarian by using English scripts - but if people already have something in English, they won't wait for the Hungarian version. (Not to mention that fandom is small, but it's large enough that one or two translation groups can't cater for it.)

As others have mentioned, it would be probably the best solution to store English language fansubs in places where North-Americans can't access it. Here in Hungary most people download fansubs from password-protected ftps that are not accessible from other countries. Of course this brings up complicated problems that need to be solved (why would fansubber groups be interested in this solution? how would people acquire anime to upload them to these ftps? etc.).

Cookie wrote:
You can sit and complain about them or you can DO something about them.

We're trying to change the situation, of course... but things are moving slowly. (But at least they're moving ahead - we'll have our first con this summer.)

Back to the topic.

As for the ethical codes, I still say the "old" one would be the best, with a "No HQ encoding" amendment. I still think that it would need action by the community itself to prevent incidents like this AJ one, by boycotting groups that distribute licensed titles.

In my opinion, titles (at least really hot titles) today are getting licensed fast enough that groups don't even have time to finish translating them, so I see no reason why a group should sub only a few episodes from all series - foreign fans, too, would be happier if they could see more from a series before it becomes unavailable for them.

Also, I think it's not a tragedy if a title gets licensed after a group has already finished translating it - if it's removed from distribution, people would rather choose the easier way and buy the DVDs than to go and look for the existing fansubs. And if someone still goes and looks for the fansub - well, then he/she wouldn't buy the DVDs anyway (but copy them or rent them), so it's not the fansubbers' fault that he doesn't support the industry. Same for those who don't want to buy the DVDs because they already have the not-hq quality fansubs.
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aceleader



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:09 pm Reply with quote
I have a response somewhere in my head to most of the posts since my last reply... it's just taking some time to dig it out... summer has a way of doing things to you Wink
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ÄlveKatt



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:34 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
Let's not make this into a continuation of the AJ thread ok? The pro- and anti- fansubs arguments have been run into the ground. This is a thread about the proposed new ethical code. I don't want to hear another word on whether you think fansubs are a good thing or a bad thing.


Aren't ethics closely tied to wether something is good or bad? Or do you just blindly base all your ethics on preconcieved dogmas?
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shintopriestess



Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:46 pm Reply with quote
ÄlveKatt wrote:
Dan42 wrote:
Let's not make this into a continuation of the AJ thread ok? The pro- and anti- fansubs arguments have been run into the ground. This is a thread about the proposed new ethical code. I don't want to hear another word on whether you think fansubs are a good thing or a bad thing.


Aren't ethics closely tied to wether something is good or bad? Or do you just blindly base all your ethics on preconcieved dogmas?


Actually if you read the locked AJ thread most of the ANN members and friends of ANN posted blatantly they had hoped the editorial and the forum thread would help sway people to change their minds.

Be less of an anime fan and be totally dependent to the US companies version of what Japanese Anime should be like for American fans.

Sadly when plans didn't go their way they quickly locked the thread Smile

Its still Amusing reading as this was the last response before it was sealed up:
"Fansub and sub/dub arguments are just the same as religious/political discussions. Nobody gives ground, nobody changes their mind, nobody says, "aha, you may be right, let me rethink my position". There's plenty of other places where people can dicsuss it, it doesn't need to infect each and every forum out there."

It really doesnt appear ANN is any less willing to be open to fansubs as any real anime fan is willing to stop getting fansubs and switch to ANN's POV.

To sum it briefly
"Yes if you cant think to ANN's way on fansubs and accept their desired fansub ethic code they dont appear to want to let anyone discuss it".

But by all means this is their site, their forums so they can control and modify what you read and say within it.
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:10 pm Reply with quote
Ooooooooooh. Now ANN is a corrupt, conspiracy-driven facist regime. Surprised

Finally, I'm going to get to see some posts that are *fun* to read! Laughing
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3620
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:42 pm Reply with quote
shintopriestess wrote:
Be less of an anime fan and be totally dependent to the US companies version of what Japanese Anime should be like for American fans.

It really doesnt appear ANN is any less willing to be open to fansubs as any real anime fan is willing to stop getting fansubs and switch to ANN's POV.


oooh, so supporting the anime industry makes you *less* of an anime fan? And getting only fansubs make you *more* of an anime fan? LMAO!

Let's not get into ridiculous arguments about what makes someone a "true" anime fan. We all like anime, and that makes all of us anime fans, no matter our stance on fansubs or on subs/dubs. The only difference is that some anime fans actually support the anime industry, some are just leeches... and most are a mix of the two in various degrees.
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ÄlveKatt



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:49 am Reply with quote
Ugh, calm down with the aggression in those posts.

I am not a moderator to say that i guess, but at least don't use my posts as catalysts for flames. I am trying to get a reputation of level-headedness here. Wink

Edit: I have not read the AJ thread. The sheer leangth of it made me avoid it.
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