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Fansubbing ethics from (yet another) pov


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W2k



Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 11:48 am Reply with quote
I guess many of you have read the feature recently published on this site called "A New Ethical Code for Digital Fansubbing". If you haven't, it's here: animenewsnetwork.com/feature.php?id=142

I found myself very much disagreeing with what was said there, because I feel that it is heavily biased towards commercial interests, ignoring the fans' wishes almost completely. Talking to other people on IRC, I found that many shared my point of view. Therefore, I put together a code of ethics which I believe is more balanced.

*dons asbestos suit*

Here it is.
http://www.home.no/negergreger/fansubs.html

Let me know what you think.
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Annie-Mei



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:06 pm Reply with quote
Your entire "Point three" is full of "opinionated" BS. IMHO.

Why should fansubbing continued if the series is being released in America?
You only provide the "substitute" that you are so advocating that people do not take in favor of the commercial releases.

Dont like how a commercial company is handling something? Why dont you just not buy it, start a small campaign and petition to get it released in a form to your liking. FunImation did it with DBZ. That's why we are getting subbed versions after DBZ had been out nearly 4 years.

Fansubbing is NOT an alternative, and should NEVER be handled as an alternative to commercial releases. If you dont like it, Go live in japan, learn the language, because ALL fansubs are , as with Commercial releases, are an interpretation of the translators "opinions' on the series. I know japanese fluently enough to see that there are defintely liberties taken with fansubs as Commercial releases do.

There are many that "i wouldn't have translated" it that way instances with fansubs that I've seen with commercial releases, but that's becasue its my interpretation.

Unless you were born and raised in Japan and its your first language, you will never get the "correct" meaning of any anime we see.
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Sharp kun



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:35 pm Reply with quote
The only time I've ever got fansuba of something that was licensed was with the first 2 series of Sailor Moon, simply as the only way to get it otherwise was in edited, butchered dub. Petitions had failed, so I went to fansubs. That is the only kind of situation in which I might get fansubs of a licensed series. Now, many, many years later, that the DVD's are coming out, I've pre-ordered them Anime smile Dic refused to give a sub track, and no one else was subbing them, in that situation, I would think fansubbing should have continued, it wasn't in competition to the comercial release, as no one who truly wanted to see SM would have bough Dics release, whether the fansubs were there or not.

The only other one was the Slayers movies, as I'm fed up with ADV's announce then delay attitute to them. I've every intention of buying them when their released, but until they are, I can enjoy them in low-res video with passable audio. When ADV finally, after years of waiting, release them, I will buy them. I belive they were subbed before ADV licensed them anyway.


Fansubs are not a substitute for a real release, if a series is licensed I won't get them, except in the above mentioned 2 circumstances.
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W2k



Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Annie-Mei wrote:
Dont like how a commercial company is handling something? Why dont you just not buy it, start a small campaign and petition to get it released in a form to your liking.


That's pretty much what I suggested in my code of ethics. However, what if the company doesn't care? We're just supposed to accept that? No, never.

Annie-Mei wrote:
Unless you were born and raised in Japan and its your first language, you will never get the "correct" meaning of any anime we see.


Um .. fine .. but how is this an argument against fansubbing?

I think most translators, be they fansubbers or professionals, are sufficiently good at what they do that enough of the anime's "meaning" survives the language change intact. Enough, that is, for the fans to enjoy the anime, which is still the most important thing.
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3620
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:52 pm Reply with quote
W2k wrote:
I found myself very much disagreeing with what was said there, because I feel that it is heavily biased towards commercial interests, ignoring the fans' wishes almost completely.


OF COURSE our article is biased in favor of commercial interests. That's the whole point of having a code of ethics in the first place. If you didn't care about the companies, you wouldn't care about ethics anyway; it would be simple pirating, not fansubbing.

As I read your versions of fansub ethics, it seemed to me that you respect companies when it suits you and disrespect them when it suits you. Whenever the article we published required any sort of discipline or restraint, you conveniently eliminated that point. Your article isn't about ethics, it's about convenience. It's about not following any rule that you consider "too inconvenient". You prove my point that someone from the fansub community is too partial to fansubs to come up with a code that could truly be considered ethical.

You say our article is heavily biased towards commercial interests, well I say your code of "ethics" is heavily biased towards pirates and freeloaders. Very ethical indeed.
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3620
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:05 pm Reply with quote
Another thing: I just noticed that the titles for the 2 articles are very well suited to their purposes.

W2k: Digital Fansubbers' Code of Ethics
Indeed, this article does describe the current code of ethics held by fansubbers, a code which I believe is lacking in some points.

ANN: A New Ethical Code for Digital Fansubbing
This is about a *NEW* code of ethics, one that is *MORE* ethical than the current standard. Apparently being more ethical isn't very popular nowadays Rolling Eyes
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W2k



Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:25 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
OF COURSE our article is biased in favor of commercial interests. That's the whole point of having a code of ethics in the first place. If you didn't care about the companies, you wouldn't care about ethics anyway; it would be simple pirating, not fansubbing.


As someone else very insightfully put it in a different thread on this subject, a code of ethics has to be created from within the community, not imposed upon it from the outside. ANN, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are on the outside. Your code of ethics is written as someone working for ADV would write it. It turns fansubbers into nothing more than external marketing departments serving the US anime companies. Okay, maybe that's exaggerating just a little. But ANY step in that direction is one too much, considering all the free publicity these companies already get from our hard work.

Dan42 wrote:
As I read your versions of fansub ethics, it seemed to me that you respect companies when it suits you and disrespect them when it suits you. (snip) You say our article is heavily biased towards commercial interests, well I say your code of "ethics" is heavily biased towards pirates and freeloaders. Very ethical indeed.


Those people who you call pirates and freeloaders, we fansubbers call "fans". This is yet another proof that you are really just serving commercial interests with your code of ethics - impartial and independent, yeah, sure. Drop the facade already.

Now to respond to your actual argument. Like I said, my code of ethics makes the basic assumption that fansubbers work for the fans. This is incompatible with the notion that whenever a company shows interest in a title, fansubbers should just steer clear. When a company picks up a title and thus in effect becomes the only legal source of a series for consumers outside of Japan, that company takes on the responsibility of making sure that that series reaches the fans in a timely manner, and in a shape and quality which the fans can enjoy. If the company should fail in this - as we all know happens - with your "ethics", fansubbers have their hands tied behind their collective backs. Sure, we may be a bunch of freeloaders, but that's because we will not tolerate such treatment. Look at the music industry and how that's crumbling. Why? Because the record companies have managed to alienate those who would be their best customers.
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W2k



Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
Another thing: I just noticed that the titles for the 2 articles are very well suited to their purposes.

W2k: Digital Fansubbers' Code of Ethics
Indeed, this article does describe the current code of ethics held by fansubbers, a code which I believe is lacking in some points.


I will consider that positive feedback - according to you, I have managed to accurately describe the current code of ethics held by fansubbers, which was pretty much what I set out to do from the start. Our opinions differ where you think the current code is lacking, whereas I think it's fine and needn't be changed.

Quote:
ANN: A New Ethical Code for Digital Fansubbing
This is about a *NEW* code of ethics, one that is *MORE* ethical than the current standard. Apparently being more ethical isn't very popular nowadays Rolling Eyes


You are correct in saying that your code of ethics is a new one - however, it is only more ethical from your point of view, which seems to be the same as that of the anime industry in the US of A. You are also correct in that being more ethical (as in, ethical in the eyes of corporations) isn't very popular nowadays. I could draw another parallel to the music industry, but that would seem redundant since I already did so in my previous post ^^;

I don't mean to change the subject, but out of simple curiosity, I have to ask: What is your stand in the debate regarding "sharing" of music over P2P networks?
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Sharp kun



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:36 pm Reply with quote
[quote="W2k"]
Dan42 wrote:
Your code of ethics is written as someone working for ADV would write it.

Isn't that how it should be? It should be more bias in favour of companies, as when it comes down to it, they are well within their rights to take fansubbers to court. Fansubs are illegal, and it is best to stay on companies good sides if you want them to continue. We are lucky to have an industry that is tolerant.
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ShellBullet



Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: I hit things, with my fist.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:56 pm Reply with quote
W2k wrote:


As someone else very insightfully put it in a different thread on this subject, a code of ethics has to be created from within the community, not imposed upon it from the outside.


It is true that ethics must be imposed from within a community; but when a community shows itself unable to abide in an ethical manner, that's when an unwriten ethical code becomes a written law.

W2k wrote:
ANN, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are on the outside. Your code of ethics is written as someone working for ADV would write it.


To this day I fail to understand this "us" vs. "them" mentality shown by most fansubbers. It makes no sense considering that the "them" are the makers of anime that were all supposedly fans of. How can you claim to support anime but not (financially) support the people who make anime?

W2k wrote:
that company takes on the responsibility of making sure that that series reaches the fans in a timely manner, and in a shape and quality which the fans can enjoy. If the company should fail in this - as we all know happens - with your "ethics", fansubbers have their hands tied behind their collective backs. Sure, we may be a bunch of freeloaders, but that's because we will not tolerate such treatment.


Reality check, no matter how much I may love anime, when all is said and done, it's still just entertainment. Don't pretend that your rights have somehow been violated because you can't get the series you want when and how you want it. Grow up.
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Dan42
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:59 pm Reply with quote
W2k wrote:
Those people who you call pirates and freeloaders, we fansubbers call "fans". This is yet another proof that you are really just serving commercial interests with your code of ethics - impartial and independent, yeah, sure. Drop the facade already.


Oh, we call them "fans" as well. It's just that they're freeloading fans instead of honest fans. Your level of honesty has no bearing on how "much" of an anime fan you are.

So... according to you this is a matter of fans vs. industry? Respecting the industry means being against the fans? You would do well to remember that the fans and the industry have a codependant relationship. The fans rely on the anime produced by the industry and the industry relies on the revenue from fans. The industry understands this very well; they try their best to please their customers (and sometimes they fail -- they're only human). But some fans have forgotten this. They've forgotten that without the industry, THERE IS NO ANIME. Are you part of those forgetful fans, W2k?
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor


Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1390
Location: St. Louis, MO
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:04 pm Reply with quote
ShellBullet wrote:
Reality check, no matter how much I may love anime, when all is said and done, it's still just entertainment. Don't pretend that your rights have somehow been violated because you can't get the series you want when and how you want it. Grow up.

Indeed. This is not Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience;" it's entertainment that one group of people made and another group is stealing.

I won't pull the "just relax" routine because that won't solve any of the problems facing the industry. (And, to be sure, there are a number of problems.) But I do ask that you consider whether actions as extreme as "piracy in protest" are appropriate--or even productive--here. Maybe you can find a better way to achieve your goals.

-Miagi
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Toubib



Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Tampa, FL
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:18 pm Reply with quote
I'm going to throw this out there, and I know I'm going to get some heat for it. But if you're a fansubber, and you think you can do things better then current companies, you feel that you can do it faster then current companies, and you obviously love anime and subbing anime...why not go work for a company and make it better. Or if you don't like the culture of current companies, start your own. Cause as I see it, it's nice ans easy to complain from the outside looking in(which you are say those that are against fansubbing are doing) so lets see you do it legit.
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Laughing Hyena



Joined: 11 Jul 2002
Posts: 136
Location: Oxnard in sunny Cailforina
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:20 pm Reply with quote
W2K, I believe you could have posted this in the other thread than just making another.

1. The thread was meant for suggestions by ALL on a new ethical code. In fact, before you start going on how you disagree with everyone posting on that thread, please note that quite a number of fansubbers, fans from other countries, and even a few manga scanners (like me) are also talking about how certain new rules would work and what not. It certainly sounds like you don't understand what that thread was about or read what other people have been saying on it.

2. The main goal of all fansubbers is to promote unknown anime to fans and hope that it will get a commercial release to form a bigger fanbase. Another goal of fansubbers is to not get sued by a company, this is why the first codes were made for. It only takes one group to ignore it to take everyone down with them. And that's what fansubbers don't want to happen to themselves.

As for myself, I have been trying to contact companies to see if they would be interested in licensing some of the manga I have been scanning so far.

Edit: Also, why not work for the companies? I mean you can then make your hobby into a job. Heck, you could work as a voice actor, a subber, anything you think you could do within the company.
Edit 2: I am.


Last edited by Laughing Hyena on Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7827
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:23 pm Reply with quote
Anyone else sick of talking about fansubs yet?

-Zac
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