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INTEREST: Space Pirate Captain Harlock Joins Japan in Anti-Piracy Campaign


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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2469
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:11 pm Reply with quote
SpacemanHardy wrote:
Torrenting is taking something that's not yours without permission and without paying for it and keeping it for as long as you like with no intention of ever returning it. Which is pretty much a textbook definition of stealing.


Yeah, you are with the bunch that called making xerox copies of a book or recording a song on tape stealing -_-;

Quote:
Now, before anyone brings up the "How can I steal something if it doesn't actually exist?" argument, while you may not be physically taking an item, you are still taking away from the artists, animators, actors, staff, directors, etc. who worked on the project. Now tell me, does their hard work, effort, and time "not actually exist"?


Here is where your argument breaks down in pieces by itself, tell me oh please tell the audience what I have taken from the artist, their money? their time? their dreams? their pet dog?

I has already been established that those that torrent are the biggest buyers or whatever they torrent and that whenever there is an adequate local supply of said product then torrenting and pirating basically disappears, so stop the FUD spreading will ya.
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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:25 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
It is quite different, if you pay even one penny for a pirated good you are creating an alternate market that might achieve revenues similar to the ones the legitimate owners have. When you torrent is no different from reading a book at a bookstore or borrowing a copy from a friend.

The bookstore comparison is just flat-out wrong for reasons already explained. As for the borrow-from-a-friend example, aside from the fact that the lender has already paid for the product while the seeder likely hasn't, there's a good chance your torrent doesn't have any commercials. No commercials means no revenue for the sponsors, which, in large enough scale, means no ad buys on the networks, which means no more TV show because there was no revenue from sponsors buying spots.

Also, borrowing for a more than the allotted time, you may as well be stealing.
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oatmealcookie



Joined: 28 Aug 2013
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:33 pm Reply with quote
I am from Russia. There's no way they are going to release it here. How the hell else am I supposed to get it? But you know what? Since now I'm starting to doubt, if I'll watch this new movie or better go and watch old good Harlock '79, made by the people who didn't even care much about the ways it would be spread and made it for the sake of art.
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oatmealcookie



Joined: 28 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:36 pm Reply with quote
I just don't get; why would they Harlock, not some K-On or whatever girls from any other title? To make it maximum nonsense?
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2469
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:08 pm Reply with quote
Joe Mello wrote:
The bookstore comparison is just flat-out wrong for reasons already explained.


Forgive me for saying so, but no, there was no such explanation, so please extract it from your mind (or copy paste the text where you think was said eplanation) and put it into plain view for our readership.

Quote:
As for the borrow-from-a-friend example, aside from the fact that the lender has already paid for the product while the seeder likely hasn't,


What? now you are saying that people torrenting anime, music, games, books or whatever flat out stole the disc, printed material or hacked itunes? Nonsense!

Quote:
there's a good chance your torrent doesn't have any commercials. No commercials means no revenue for the sponsors, which, in large enough scale, means no ad buys on the networks, which means no more TV show because there was no revenue from sponsors buying spots.


Let me explain it for you, in the specific case of TV broadcast anime, commercials are a little extra that NO ONE takes into consideration since we are talking about late night anime that does not score high enough to be in the weekly ratings, the money the might receive from advertising is peanuts; disc, manga or light novel sales is what sustains the anime industry, plain and simple, so your example of no more anime because I do not watch the commercials is truly pathetic. Now, lets suppose mine do come with commercials, those are aimed at japanese otaku so it will be about products I can't buy here (happy meal attack on titan Anime cry ) or about about other animes and they might make me torrent also. so in the end it makes no difference at all if they include the commercials.

Quote:
Also, borrowing for a more than the allotted time, you may as well be stealing.


So you do are from that bunch of people -_-;

Joe anime wrote:
Japan has done everything within their power to bring anime to every part of the world,what your're asking for,they've done.


Let me get this straight, in the place where you live you get most anime movies in theaters at most six months after their are released in japan? Do you get at your amazon all the anime series you can get at amazon.jp at the same price you pay for local TV series (with subs and dubs)? You can download the latest anime music titles (at a lower price) at yout itunes? You get anime video games released a few months after their release in japan?

If the answer is an absolute yes, please let me know where you live. If the answer is an absolute no, then japan has not done the same work they did to sell their cars and electronic products outside of japan, in layman terms, no, they have not done everything within their power to bring anime to every part of the world
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:07 pm Reply with quote
Hawkwing wrote:
I doubt anyone outside Japan would've heard about this movie if piracy didn't exist. Rolling Eyes


Because clearly, sites like animenewsnetwork and crunchyroll haven't been posting news bits about Captain Harlock for the past few months. Rolling Eyes

mangamuscle wrote:
Here is where your argument breaks down in pieces by itself, tell me oh please tell the audience what I have taken from the artist, their money? their time? their dreams? their pet dog?


You took away their right to decide who gets to see the works they created, and under what circumstances. Think of it like this --- if I peep into your house when you're taking a shower, have I taken anything tangible away from you, or affected you physically in any way? No, but I violated your personal right to privacy in your own home --- intangible, but important. The same reasoning applies to copyright violations like piracy. You're looking at something you don't have the right to look at unless you have permission.
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Joe anime



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 259
Location: Brooklyn,NY
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:31 pm Reply with quote
Joe anime wrote:
Japan has done everything within their power to bring anime to every part of the world,what your're asking for,they've done.


Let me get this straight, in the place where you live you get most anime movies in theaters at most six months after their are released in japan? Do you get at your amazon all the anime series you can get at amazon.jp at the same price you pay for local TV series (with subs and dubs)? You can download the latest anime music titles (at a lower price) at yout itunes? You get anime video games released a few months after their release in japan?

If the answer is an absolute yes, please let me know where you live. If the answer is an absolute no, then japan has not done the same work they did to sell their cars and electronic products outside of japan, in layman terms, no, they have not done everything within their power to bring anime to every part of the world[/quote]




https://www.daisuki.net/
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Fabe



Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 219
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:44 pm Reply with quote
Joe anime wrote:
Joe anime wrote:
Japan has done everything within their power to bring anime to every part of the world,what your're asking for,they've done.


Let me get this straight, in the place where you live you get most anime movies in theaters at most six months after their are released in japan? Do you get at your amazon all the anime series you can get at amazon.jp at the same price you pay for local TV series (with subs and dubs)? You can download the latest anime music titles (at a lower price) at yout itunes? You get anime video games released a few months after their release in japan?

If the answer is an absolute yes, please let me know where you live. If the answer is an absolute no, then japan has not done the same work they did to sell their cars and electronic products outside of japan, in layman terms, no, they have not done everything within their power to bring anime to every part of the world





https://www.daisuki.net/[/quote]

Uhh is it just me or is Joe Anime replying to and arguing against his own post?
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5324
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:49 pm Reply with quote
^And doing a terrible job at it too. Daisuki may be a step forward, but not every series is available worldwide, their catalogue is limited and the problem with DVD/BD, mangas, music and movies does not seem like something they can solve. Also, their shows are English sub only, so it won't be of any use to people from non-English speaking areas who don't know English.
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:05 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
You took away their right to decide who gets to see the works they created, and under what circumstances. Think of it like this --- if I peep into your house when you're taking a shower, have I taken anything tangible away from you, or affected you physically in any way? No, but I violated your personal right to privacy in your own home --- intangible, but important. The same reasoning applies to copyright violations like piracy. You're looking at something you don't have the right to look at unless you have permission.


How convenient it is to forget that the reason copyright law exists is to prevent someone else from profiting from your creations (that is why the german court ordered the destruction of the Nosferatu films, because they were profiting from Bram Stokers Dracula), not to prevent Jon Doe from ever look at the *gasp* work of an artist. Like Profesor Benjamin Shorofsky asked Danny Amatullo in the original Fame TV series, "If an artists creates something for no one else to see, then why he creates?". You need to be a control freak to want to control your creations to the point of knowing who can or cannot see it, once it is released only in a police state you might attempt something so ludicrous (and you will proably fail since such states have more pressing matters, like containing civil unrest, to attend to). Torrenting is an extension of those getting copies via xerox, tape or disc that most people did in the XX century, the industry said such practices would bankrupt them here we are in the XX century and if any artist is not getting his dues is because big companies are robbing them, not Jon Doe.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:38 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
How convenient it is to forget that the reason copyright law exists is to prevent someone else from profiting from your creations (that is why the german court ordered the destruction of the Nosferatu films, because they were profiting from Bram Stokers Dracula), not to prevent Jon Doe from ever look at the *gasp* work of an artist. Like Profesor Benjamin Shorofsky asked Danny Amatullo in the original Fame TV series, "If an artists creates something for no one else to see, then why he creates?". You need to be a control freak to want to control your creations to the point of knowing you can or cannot see it, once it is released only in a police state you might attempt something so ludicrous (and you will proably fail since such states have more pressing matters, like containing civil unrest, to attend to). Torrenting is an extension of those getting copies via xerox, tape or disc that most people did in the XX century, the industry said such practices would bankrupt them here we are in the XX century and if any artist is not getting his dues is because big companies are robbing them, not Jon Doe.


You're trying to spin this into a discussion about profits when fundamentally this is an argument about rights. If I create a picture, a song, or a story, I have the right to determine who can have access to it, the same as you having the right to control who can walk into your house and read your private journal. Copyright is an extension of property rights that attempts to strike a balance between the rights of an author to control the terms of access to his/her creation, and the greater interests of society to more affordably gain access to that creative property.

Do you not fundamentally believe in personal ownership and/or property rights? That an author doesn't 'own' the works that they create? With that sort of reasoning, I would think you'd be okay with anyone and everyone having access to your personal property regardless of your opinion on the matter --- that people should be able to walk through your house, drive your car, and generally subsume your personal rights to ownership and privacy as their own without your permission. Are you really suggesting that if I write a story, it doesn't belong to me? That I have no right to say who can and can't read it, and that it absolutely must be shared with everyone regardless of what I think? Would you really force that opinion onto artists and creators?

Also, you're jumping from one thought to another in a sort of unguided ramble. It would be easier to discuss the fundamental ideas of the discussion than to jump from one random reference to the next.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:55 pm Reply with quote
And you're trying to equate distribution of art, knowledge and culture to strangers peeping through your window. Ignoring the fact that there is a legal profession that relies on spying on artists (paparazzi) it's about the worst analogy I've read

We all know copyright exists for the sake of creators making profits off their works, not for some idiotic discriminatory "I don't want A to have access to my work because he sucks". I can't imagine a single artist that thinks like this because, either way, selling your product makes it widely available to anyone who can pay for it, you don't get to choose who buys it. Heck, you don't even get to choose what people do with your work, be it use it as toilet paper or create hentai doujinshi from it. You try to argue with "fundamentals" but your whole argument makes no sense at all
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2469
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:12 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
You're trying to spin this into a discussion about profits when fundamentally this is an argument about rights.


In a nutshell, you are afraid to face reality, the so called "evil torrent users" are not (and never were) the root of the troubles the industry faces, you try to cover your tail forcing this to be a discussion about rights which are kind of esoteric, you are probably the kind of person that was cheering wildly when micro$oft make the announcement about the extended restrictions they would enforce on using your game discs on another person console. Gladly everyday less people believes the drivel you spout.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1203
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:38 pm Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
And you're trying to equate distribution of art, knowledge and culture to strangers peeping through your window. Ignoring the fact that there is a legal profession that relies on spying on artists (paparazzi) it's about the worst analogy I've read

We all know copyright exists for the sake of creators making profits off their works, not for some idiotic discriminatory "I don't want A to have access to my work because he sucks". I can't imagine a single artist that thinks like this because, either way, selling your product makes it widely available to anyone who can pay for it, you don't get to choose who buys it. Heck, you don't even get to choose what people do with your work, be it use it as toilet paper or create hentai doujinshi from it. You try to argue with "fundamentals" but your whole argument makes no sense at all


Any analogy would look poor with enough filters placed on top of it. You're missing the trees for the forest, focusing on criticizing aspects of the analogy that aren't central to the underlying point in its original context (which was regarding the breaking of personal rights without tangible consequences).

Copyright is an intellectual property right. It exists to protect an author's right to control the circumstances under which copies of their work can be made, and in that respect, who has the right to subsequently view and enjoy those works. It's not the author saying "I don't want A to have access to my work because he sucks", it's about the author saying "A can have access to my work if A fulfills these conditions that I specify". It's an application of property rights law onto creative works. If the author wants to make their works available for free (a la' copyleft), then that's their right as well, and certainly a great number of artists do allow for it. But it's up to the content creator, who created the work in the first place, to decide that.

An author doesn't get to choose (to an extent) what people do with physical copies of their work, but they do get to control the dissemination of the content of that work. And companies like Nintendo and Sunrise have shown that they do have the right to prevent people from creating hentai doujinshi of their properties.

mangamuscle wrote:
In a nutshell, you are afraid to face reality, the so called "evil torrent users" are not (and never were) the root of the troubles the industry faces, you try to cover your tail forcing this to be a discussion about rights which are kind of esoteric, you are probably the kind of person that was cheering wildly when micro$oft make the announcement about the extended restrictions they would enforce on using your game discs on another person console. Gladly everyday less people believes the drivel you spout.


Ahhahaha! Laughing Personal attacks online are always amusing, and I think you've amongst the fastest times I've seen for someone to drop to that level so quickly. Though I'm not sure if my laughing was the intended consequence, I can at least say your post brightened an otherwise dull afternoon.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9310
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:50 pm Reply with quote
Piracy just seems like an inevitability, so you might as well create the best product you can to get people to physically come to the theater and/or want to own it on disc. The chances of camrips are pretty low, so I doubt there's much worry there.
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