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Sariachan



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1306
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:38 am Reply with quote
I fully agree with you, CrowLia, and since you studied Italian for what I understood, I suggest you to see Radford's movie "Il Postino" with Massimo Troisi, if you haven't already watched it; there is a speech about the ownership of poetry that you'll surely appreciate (and it's a masterpiece overall). ^^
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:29 pm Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
None. Hoping to have control of something you put out in the world is ludicrous. I go back to the Sunrise and Nintendo examples, no matter how hard they've tried to stop people from making doujinshi of their stuff, people still do it.

I'm going to change the discussion to the academic ground to make a better example, even if a little hyperbolic. Let's say A writes a science book in which he puts out his new amazing discovery about neurology. The book is published in Country A, and Country A alone because A doesn't want it to be distributed around the world, he wants to protect his precious private property whatever shit.

Let's say B reads A's book and decides his discoveries would greatly help the field of medicine all around the world. But, since A won't let anyone distribute his book outside of his country, B decides to upload it to the internet. Scientists and students all over the world get access to it and it helps improve the medical field and human life in general because whatever. A is insanely pissed because his private property has been violated, but the world is a better place now.

Basically no, I don't think authors have the right to arbitrarily decide or limit the distribution of their so-called private property. Knowledge should be available to anyone because you don't know who might take that "private" creation and come up with something new and different. It's the flow of knowledge and culture that make the world change the most, wanting to limit it out of some sense of "ownership and control" is essentially being an ass.



On this point we're in fundamental disagreement. From the sound of things, you're of a collectivist mindset, shirking concepts of individual possessions and self-interest in favor of the greater 'social good' (knowing that, if I ever meet you in real life, I'll make sure to kindly ask for your wallet Laughing). I prefer a reasonable balance between the two extremes, as I do believe in the public good, but not at the unreasonable expense of private ownership. From your line of reasoning, I could build a house and in the name of 'the greater good' people would have access to using it however they see fit, as it doesn't 'belong' to me (and on this point, I certainly hope you don't have double standards, as creations, tangible or no, require sacrifice, money and time all the same).

Also, your academic example isn't just hyperbolic, it demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of copyright. The ideas and information in the example book you outlined are not protected under copyright --- if the doctor's discoveries are simply pieces of information, that information is legally allowed to be disseminated under the terms of fair use. Copyright protects forms of expression --- i.e., creative works of art, plays, movies, etc. While the neurology book does fall under this example, it's only the arrangement of text in the book that can't be copied (and fair use makes particular exceptions for that as well). The information contained inside of it, however, can be reproduced and distributed.

Now if we were talking about a new invention or medication, then we wouldn't even be discussing copyright at all --- we'd be talking about patents. Many governments impose a significantly shorter time-frame limitation on patents than on copyrights, a purposeful construct of law systems that, like you, recognize the practical importance of medical/technological advancements, and decidedly balances the good of society against the rights of an individual. This is in contrast to creative works, which fall under a different series of property protections (i.e. copyright law) because they're not deemed to be of similar practical importance to society at large, and are subsequently granted lengthier time-frames of protection.

In any event, your example is a false equivalence. You're trying to make an emotional appeal to the 'life-saving', 'world-changing' benefits of copyright infringement, but the apples of medical advancement don't compare to the oranges of televised entertainment. Your appeal should have been about how Western middle-class kids 'just can't get their anime fix', but that just sounds obnoxious. Laughing

Quote:
Oh but you were the one who insisted on discussing fundamentals. And the fundamentals are that people should have access to culture/art/knowledge, regardless of their nationality or social condition. Call it anime or call it science books.


Perhaps fundamental to you, but not strictly so to me. I believe it's important, but I also believe it has to be balanced against the ownership rights of the author. You prefer that the balance weigh strictly in favor of society at large.

Quote:
Seriously, they don't. My Italian highschool teacher once got into trouble for photocopying an Italian textbook and the author was about to sue the teacher because we should've bought it. He didn't care if we had it or not; he cared that we paid for it, period.

So of course, we photocopied a different book Laughing


I'll see your anecdotal evidence, and raise you twenty more. Razz I personally know a number of artists myself, some of whom are professionals in their respective fields that quickly learned on entering adulthood the importance of copyright, esp. in regards to controlling how their works are spread online. When you paint a picture of the Washington Monument, and some neo-nazi group decides they want to use it on their website landing page, it's nice to have a government-afforded degree of control over your works.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:15 pm Reply with quote
Sariachan wrote:
I fully agree with you, CrowLia, and since you studied Italian for what I understood, I suggest you to see Radford's movie "Il Postino" with Massimo Troisi, if you haven't already watched it; there is a speech about the ownership of poetry that you'll surely appreciate (and it's a masterpiece overall). ^^


Sadly my Italian is not good enough for me to actually watch it, but since the poet represented is Pablo Neruda -one of the most acclaimed Latin American poets of the 20th century- it's been long subbed to Spanish, so I've been able to see bits and pieces (actually, I think the Italian teacher played it for us). I know the scene you're talking about (coincidentally, I was talking about it with a friend not a week ago) and I think it's a great example for this topic Very Happy

@Kikaioh. Yes, I actually believe the world can become a better place if we worry less about the money of the 1% of the world's population and focus more on improving the lives of the remaining 99% -culturally, educationally, economically, etc-. Call it idealistic or whatever, it's something I'll always believe in strongly.
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Sariachan



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1306
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:10 am Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
Sariachan wrote:
I fully agree with you, CrowLia, and since you studied Italian for what I understood, I suggest you to see Radford's movie "Il Postino" with Massimo Troisi, if you haven't already watched it; there is a speech about the ownership of poetry that you'll surely appreciate (and it's a masterpiece overall). ^^


Sadly my Italian is not good enough for me to actually watch it, but since the poet represented is Pablo Neruda -one of the most acclaimed Latin American poets of the 20th century- it's been long subbed to Spanish, so I've been able to see bits and pieces (actually, I think the Italian teacher played it for us). I know the scene you're talking about (coincidentally, I was talking about it with a friend not a week ago) and I think it's a great example for this topic Very Happy

It is, isn't it? Smile

More on the topic, I believe material goods are a thing, while virtual ones are a completely different thing. If food was virtual too, I don't think anybody wouldn't give it to the people who can't pay (actually, maybe someone wouldn't ^^' ); art and culture are less important than food? Yes and not, it depends on how much you have a materialistic vision of life.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:58 am Reply with quote
@Sariachan: I think the element you're looking for is scarcity - food is scarce, ideas aren't. Copyright law grants a monopoly on the use of certain elements and patterns under the idea the sacrifice to society is less than the gain from new works incentivized. While the idea that copyright monopoly is an inherent right for farting out lines on a page has been transcendent for some time(allowing the abusive regime we currently have to come into existence), the modern wave of infringement is simply the underlying fact of nonscarcity(and therefore nonownability) being acknowledged, even if only on an intuitive level.
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:03 pm Reply with quote
I would say this is an issue of hardware (physical) vs software (ideas). When you buy a printed comic book you are buying both hardware (paper, ink) and software (the drawings and the plot therein portrayed, which are by themselves, weightless). But the digital era has been able to dissociate hardware from software, a file (be it mp3, pdf, iso or mkv) is software and anyone can provide the hardware for it to exist (be it a write once disc, a hard disc or a pen drive). There might come a time where even food becomes software when we build machines able to synthesize different kind of foods using a coded recipe (software) and basic proteins, carbs and aminoacids (hardware).
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:26 pm Reply with quote
@mangamuscle: Actually, your point stands in the here and now: a recipe is non-scarce, but the food used prepared according to it, or the paper it's written on, is. Thus, if I take your balsamic mustard chicken or whatever you have the recipe written on, I'm stealing; if I copy down the recipe you used, I'm not, no matter whether or not I have permission.
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Sariachan



Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:40 pm Reply with quote
Am I strange for thinking that Ideas are scarcer than food, then? Razz
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2457
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:52 pm Reply with quote
Sariachan wrote:
Am I strange for thinking that Ideas are scarcer than food, then? Razz


Quick, grab a pen and write something on a piece of paper as if your life depends of it. It wasn't that hard, wasn't it? Now quick, grab some dirt, water and air and make a rib eye steak ,,,, done yet? I can give you two months, not enough? Which one is more scarce then? If you want to say "But the idea of making mickey mouse (i.e.) is unique and therefore scarce" you could say the last rib eye steak I ate is even more unique and irreplacable (no one will be able to ate it after me) and therefore should cost a million dollars or more. Scarcity speaks about a product in general, as in food, manga, towels and ideas are a dime a dozen, everybody can produce them and only the ones with some merit are not discarded, meanwhile in most parts of the planet it is a sin to discard food, even if it not the tastiest.
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Sariachan



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1306
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:08 pm Reply with quote
If people keep eating too much meat and fishes food will become even scarcer. I prefer vegetables and fruits. Wink

I still believe Ideas (notice the capital letter) are scarcer, though, even if they aren't physical things.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:27 pm Reply with quote
We seem to be going at this from different angles - when I say "ideas are nonscarce", I refer to the individual ideas: there's simply no inherent reason why there can't exist a copy of a given recipe for everybody who wants to prepare it, even if the resources to fix even a single one physically fail to exist.

Now what you're speaking of is why copyright and patent monopolies are supposedly awarded - to increase the number of ideas in society. However, monopolies have very real costs to society in the distortions they cause, which must be balanced against any benefit distorting more ideas out of society causes. I could wax lyrical on the unethical nature of all monopolies, but even the utiliarian grounding buckles under the enourmous costs of granting monopolies that run almost three quarters of a century at their shortest.
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