Forum - View topicFansubbing ethics from (yet another) pov
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W2k
 Posts: 10 |
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You mean "that's when an unwritten ethical code is replaced by a written law (from the outside)" - if the unwritten code and the law were the same, there'd be no need to write the code down, since people would already abide by it. The problem with that in this case is that all of the fansub groups out there are fairly loosely tied together. We know each other by nickname. We communicate via IRC. In our community, just like in any other semi-anonymous online community, unwritten ethical codes are everything and no written law imposed by someone from the outside will make a difference.
It is an "us" vs "them" relationship, so it's only natural that we use these terms when talking about it. You make it sound like we're pirates. We're not. Even with the current ethical code as laid out in the document I wrote, anime companies are helped by fansubs. But once they've received that free publicity, they want us to silently disappear and leave the market to them. Legally and ethically, we are forced to comply. The fans, however, would rather have everything for free if they could. It can't be both ways. Conflict ensues. That's why there's an "us"-"them" relationship.
Well, if anime was "just entertainment" to me, I don't think I'd be a fansubber. I don't claim to have a right to free anime. But we fansubbers have the means to take things into our own hands when companies fail to live up to the expectations we place on them. The means to deliver anime to the fans the way they want it, when they want it. Maybe not completely legal .. but in all honesty, how many people actually give a fudge about that?
Ooh, petty personal insults. I'm so impressed. If that's not a sign of a mind running out of arguments, I don't know what is. |
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Delthayre
 Posts: 414 Location: One of the good United States |
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I think I am a bit tired of fansub discussion. I think it's best to just let this issue to rest now and return to less problematic discussion. For the time being, no opinions have really been affected. From my experience, opinions only change after the fact, when the instinctive, yet foolish pride that drives one to vociferous, nigh irresponsible defense of opinions has subsided and more sensible consideration becomes possible.
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor
 Posts: 1390 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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That's an admirable cause, but your intentions don't excuse you from your actions. Feel free to try to persuade otherwise, but I firmly believe that distributing fansubs of licensed anime is illegal and, more important, unethical. You'll also need to do better than the Seven Excuses. As for whether it's "just entertainment," I refer you to my previous post. I think you'll enjoy life more if you keep it all in perspective, but of course, you have a right to complain about anime "injustice." -Miagi Last edited by jmays on Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sharp kun
 Posts: 22 Location: Scotland |
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Fansubber's will either have to abide by some form of rules, or I see a lot of them disapearing rather quickly.
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
 Posts: 3782 Location: Montreal |
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Yes, but somehow I can't help myself... I have to talk about it, I have to respond to the inanities that some people consider "arguments" |
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Mr Mania
 Posts: 581 Location: UK |
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Amen to that,the main AJ thread was locked but idiots keep on opening new threads or try to resurrect old fansub threads.Why W2K didn't use the 'revision to the fansub ethical code' thread I dont know. |
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W2k
Posts: 10 |
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Of course distributing fansubs of licensed anime is illegal. Technically, distributing fansubs of unlicensed anime is illegal as well, because copyrights in Japan are completely valid and enforceable in the US as well. As someone already pointed out, we're lucky the anime industry is so tolerant. Let me again make it clear that I don't advocate fansubbing of licensed anime, except under special conditions, conditions that are very rare. A lot of people seem to think that I don't care whether anime has been licensed or not; that's wrong. Most fansubbers do care about that, in my experience. As things are right now, there is a pretty good balance between the interests of fans and those of the anime industry. If the industry would suddenly start pushing for change, it wouldn't lead to change: it would lead to the entire fansub community moving (even further) underground. That would be nice for the leeches, but not for everyone else. EDIT: I just read SakechanBD's Seven Excuses post. Very well written, very entertaining. I could explain to you at great lengths how those analogies differ from reality (all IMNSHO of course), but I can't quite be stuffed since I am in dire need of sleep at the moment. Talk to ya later. EDIT: I was tired, so I didn't notice that the Seven Excuses post was by a different author. Have changed the above paragraph appropriately. Last edited by W2k on Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dark-Magik
Posts: 7 |
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Fansubbers wont just *disappear* if they don't want to abide by any rules, they'll just end up going private and releasing trough other means of distribution ie. Newsgroups, Bittorrent etc |
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Ghost
Posts: 26 |
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Yes, and said before and things have changed. They can but that's going to take money and the consumption of time. A few years back, Funanimation was submitting C&D letters to DBZ distros, it worked for a while, but inventually the fansub community shut them down.
Yes some have... just ask Animego, ADV and CPM (well, he quit). -Ghost- Last edited by Ghost on Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kaorimoch
Posts: 16 |
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The really sad thing here is your animosity towards anime companies. I really pity the hard working anime company that has to read your comments.
If a group of fans in America really like an anime, and they want to release it to the general public, they might form a company, obtain a license from the Japanese creators and then produce it for general consumption, but according to you, they are the enemy. These are companies which don't make megabucks, are loaded with people who love anime and are under restrictions from Japan on when to release, how to release, what to release, etc. If a Japanese company says "You have to release in a 3/2/2/2 format so our market doesn't import from yours" or "We don't want you to releasee the title until x/x/x so that fans will buy from us first" or "You can't release unless you do x", then you say that you will attempt to "fix" this "market anomaly" through the complete disregard for licensing and market pressures through illegal means. That is the epitome of disrespect. It shows that someone has issues with the principle of patience. I assure you, you will continue to live and enjoy life without having to watch episode x of the new series just released from Japan that has been licensed for US distribution. I am very happy with companies releasing anime the way that they are. Anime companies are the 'real way' to release anime, properly, legally and truly ethically. |
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor
Posts: 1390 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Oh, but I can't take credit for that post! Thank Bamboo. It's hers. ^_^ |
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Ghost
Posts: 26 |
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I'm in agreement that the discussion is tiring, but that’s what happens when articles are controversial. I also agree that the opinions here have been affected due to pride. This shouldn’t set off a defense mechanism when you have differences in opinions. No one deserves aggressive response as “Grow up” or LMAO and this should never happen particularly from moderators or posters. Fansubbers will get emotional because they feel as if they’re being unfairly targeted and statements as “to this day I fail to understand this "us" vs. "them" mentality shown by most fansubbers” will antagonize them even more. …Thus resulting in a hostile reply. I read the post by Chris Beveridge from AoD saying “Fansub and sub/dub arguments are just the same as religious/political discussions. Nobody gives ground, nobody changes their mind, nobody says, "aha, you may be right, let me rethink my position”. He’s right when he says they’re the same. Conversely, the “aha, you may be right, let me rethink my position, based upon the "Revision ethics thing... fansubbers WILL NOT listen to the industry and their groupies on how a they should fansub. That case has long been closed. ...And from Miaki “Some anime websites won't even allow this type of exchange to take place”. Sites such as AoD and Animation Insider are about promotion of legit anime, fansubs shouldn't be a part of it, which is understandable. So basically my previous observations were proven to be correct.
I’m sorry, this is off-topic, but… I don’t know to whom you were refering to when you made this comment, but I’ll tell you what’s sad. What’s sad is 9/11 and thousands of people are dying and have died on the both sides over oil that many companies are profiting from. You want to feel pity, feel pity for the working class families who lost their life savings to greedy-ass whitecollar criminals at Worldcom. I can go on... The ethicality of cartoons isn’t sad when companies who can and have indeed exercised their legal power. Power being the key word here. This is another form cheating and everybody does it, just ask Martha Stewart and Bill Clinton. Furthermore, piracy is and always has been a problem with all businesses, from sole proprietors to corporations. ...and people always complain about them. Can anyone say Microsoft? In anime currently, TRSI's famous blackout scene concerning KareKano. Don’t tell me that there are only "pirates and leeches" in the fansub community and they're doing ALL of the downloading. I don't mean to get on a pulpit, but I have big problem with folks who prioritize trivial bullshit over more important things like tragic events. -Ghost- |
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Kaorimoch
Posts: 16 |
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We really don't need a discussion about current events and political systems in an anime ethics thread, it is way off topic. You are quite welcome to form a new topic on a political board somewhere else called "Why the world is sad - after Sept 11" if you want to talk about stuff like that and leave the 'trivial cartoon' stuff here at a place that focuses on 'trivial cartoons' ie anime. I acknowledge that those events are probably more important, but this is the wrong place. To put it in perspective, if you were creating a story that you spent 3 years writing, producing, putting your heart into and then released it at great expense on DVD...and some guy down the road knocked off a copy and sold it at a cheap price, would you like us to say "Oh yeah, but here's this other stuff thats happened in the world ..blah..blah.. so your problems don't amount to a tin of beans." In the scope of anime fansubbing ethics, we need to consider the impact that anime companies have on the market. People are moralising and justifing outright theft of licensed anime in breach of established anime fansubbing ethics and calling anime companies bloodsucking thieves who are screwing over fans. Some people are trying very hard to justify these actions by painting a picture of the grubby anime company that will release their favorite title in a dub-only format with 2 eps per DVD just to annoy us and that we have to use 'people power' to fight back. Ignoring the fact that most of us did not start down the path of anime fandom from fansubs and that these companies are really the ones putting anime in the spotlight. I get annoyed when people automatically assume that because a certain organisation is a 'company', that it must make mega-bucks and leech as much money as possible from people and screw as many people over as possible. Yes, we have those organisations in this world, Microsoft and Martha Stewart as an example, but there are countless others who do not make big headlines who are actually provide a service at a fair price with respect to the law. Just because some screwball companies hit the headlines doesn't mean we automatically throw them all in the same basket. If you don't like what an anime company is doing, contact them, sub-license the anime and do it yourself, request a different version, get a petition going, find out why they are doing things they way they are doing them, etc. Just because one or two titles aren't done the way you want them to doesn't mean that you should go behind their backs and knock off a few 'fansubs'. As you said, your comments are off-topic. I agree. |
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Sharp kun
Posts: 22 Location: Scotland |
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No matter how they choose to distrubute them, they setill have to let people know where to find them. If companies decide that fansubs are no longer worth it and decide to crack down, a lot of groups will go quickly. A few letters threatening legal action will put an end to most, and for those that don't, a few court cases will end them. If the risk of legal action becomes too high, most groups will stop, and those that don't will be made to. Fansubbers have to abide to some sort of code, otherwise the tolerant attitude companies have towards them could change very quickly. |
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Kaorimoch
Posts: 16 |
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Yes, but the fansub code has to be one that the companies will agree to. Thats the major point in working out a code of fansub ethics. They won't appreciate people ripping off their paid-for license. And that is where this revised code fails. |
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