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Interview: Evan Stone


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Ermat_46



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 585
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:50 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:


In the case of the crunchyroll rips, sometimes people download them because they aren't subscribers, and thus would have to wait a week before watching the shows otherwise. Plus the rips have no ads, and are based on the highest quality version crunchyroll has available (which free viewers often can't watch, I believe).


Can't believe the fact that people aren't willing to wait for a week to watch their free animu. lol. I'm the type of viewer who prefers marathoning a series rather than watching it weekly, so that "one week" wait doesn't matter for me. As for the ads, it's no different from watching anime on free TV. The only "legit" excuse I can think of is having sh***y internet connection.
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PBsallad



Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 338
Location: Phoenix
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:04 pm Reply with quote
Captain Crotchspike wrote:
lol man arizona ._.

I remember dropping by the local Atomic Comics some time last year and still seeing the usual obvious bootleg CDs and DVDs, including Eva 1.0 on the manga rack selling for about as much as the real thing. Perhaps it was silly of me to have figured they'd have, well, grown out of selling that kind of thing by then, but I thought it was pretty embarrassing.

...it, er, definitely is now...


Heh, I shop at Atomic all the time. lol

Some time last year the one I go to had a clearance sale for anime. One of the store clerks told me about it and I said "I don't want those, they're bootlegs". The clerk didn't really say anything except that they're trying to get rid of them. lol

I haven't seen any DVDs there since.
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dawgstar



Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 34
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:50 pm Reply with quote
Ermat_46 wrote:
Can't believe the fact that people aren't willing to wait for a week to watch their free animu. lol. I'm the type of viewer who prefers marathoning a series rather than watching it weekly, so that "one week" wait doesn't matter for me. As for the ads, it's no different from watching anime on free TV. The only "legit" excuse I can think of is having sh***y internet connection.


Then it's been your good fortune not to run into some of the ridiculously self-entitled cartoon watchers running around out there. Count your blessings.
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Melanchthon



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 550
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:41 pm Reply with quote
Well, this one ridiculously self-entitled cartoon watcher's take on the subject.

Mr. Stone is absolutely correct. What do you expect be to say? He's right. Of course, you can't bring mass John Doe lawsuits -- they always get thrown out (well, 90% of the time), but Funimation has a legal right to sue for copyright infringement. But you know what? In the end, you can't stop piracy.

There are three main reasons why people pirate:
1) Lack of access. If a person in Australia or Brazil or Bahrain wants to want an anime series, but that series isn't legal available in their country, then they will pirate the series. Expanding streaming options, like Crunchyroll, is the best way to stop this piracy.

2) Ideological reasons. A lot of anime fans are young, and a lot of young people are stupid. Sometimes kids get these ideas in their head about liberté, égalité, fraternité, and it takes a few years knocking around in the real world before their idealism is beat out of them. But until then, good luck getting them to stop pirating.

3) Legitimacy reasons. This is how I look at it, and forgive me if it's politically incorrect. If I lived in Japan, say, I could watch these anime on TV for free (excluding Cable cost). I could tape these shows and watch them later (I know Japan has some draconian copyright laws, but I believe this is permissible). And if I liked a show, I could show my support by buying the dvd. Now, I do not live in the land of the rising sun, but the home of the brave, and so I can not watch these shows on TV. But I can watch fansubs, save them for later, and then buy the dvds, (assuming they are licensed). How is this different than watching the show on TV? If I tivo an episode of Fringe and fast forward through the commercials, am I a pirate? If I watch an episode of Glee for free on TV but never buy the DVDs, am I stealing? Of course there is streaming media, which raises another question. If I can tape something from my TV, why not my internet connection? And there are other problems with streaming. For example, ANN itself had a number of streams expire not to long ago, it was advertised on the front banner. How long do you think Crunchyroll's streams will last? Forever?

I'm sorry, it's late, I got off topic there for a bit, and then I had this thing going. I would like to drop my favorite Shakespearean quote about lawyers here, but I don't want to get sued. But in the end, Funimation has every right to sue every Bittorenter out there. I just don't think it is cost effective. The more you tighten your grip, the more fansubbers will slip through your fingers. Or something.

/Extra credit: Using Plato's Theory of Forms, explain how the Form of Watching Anime Through the Television is different than the Form of Watching Anime Through the Internet. Show your work.
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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 1:33 am Reply with quote
Okay, brace for a long post.

mrsatan wrote:
Are those people that are downloading ripped streams even within US jurisdiction? Why else would people download something that's available to them for free unless they were in a blocked non-US location?
It's a bit hard to sue people who aren't in US jurisdiction so yes, you can assume so. As for why they download: because they don't like corporations and think downloading stuff from non-official sources makes them anti-authoritarian rebels.

jmaeshawn wrote:
"You aren't allowed to sell merchandise you made yourself, even though every single thing out there on the market has been made by somebody."
Incorrect.

The law clearly allows people generally to sell merchandise they made themselves. The issue here is that these people are making merchandise which is using copyrighted materials that don't belong them! Those copyrighted materials, the intellectual property belonging to the Japanese and licensed to Funimation, is what the people buying that bootleg merchandise want.

Translation using a T-shirt as an example: if you draw your own original anime character that happens to look a little like a copyrighted character, you can sell it legally on a T-shirt. If you make a parody image of a copyrighted character, you can sell it legally (fair use) on a T-shirt. If you use a copyrighted character image outright you can't sell it legally on a T-shirt. If you use the copyrighted image and slap the name of the anime on the T-shirt, you are breaking the law so obviously that you should be laughed at.

jmaeshawn wrote:
"You aren't allowed to make or show AMV's despite the fact that you ripped the source material from a DVD you legitimately purchased, and even though it's not a whole episode, and the fact that tying an English song with an anime actually helps get new people into the anime fandom."
Did you read the same article I did?

First, the ripping he was talking about were rips of streams from Funi's site and rips off their DVDs with subs or of the dub. He wasn't talking about the video itself but the vocals or subs created by Funi. Second, AMVs are generally fair use as to the video. Look the term up. The reason he'd didn't say it clearly is that it's so bloody obvious. (The music is a different matter but Funi isn't a music company so that's not their problem.)

jmaeshawn wrote:
"If you can't determine who committed the violation of illegally downloading, I'll sue everybody in the house. Even your 3 month old baby sister."
Allow me to briefly explain joint and several liability because clearly you and several other posters don't understand how it works.

The idea in tort law is that an injury has been caused but it isn't possible to determine exactly who caused the injury. There are several potential tortfeasors who may be responsible. First, an example taught in first year law school is Summers v. Tice. A man was injured by bird shot to the eye. There were two people who fired. One of them injured him but it wasn't possible for the plaintiff (or science at that time) to determine which one of the two men caused his injury. So the court held that the burden of proof shifted to the shooters to sort out which of them caused the injury. Joint and several liability evolves from this basic principle.

Second, allow me to break down the parts: Joint liability is essentially that several parties are each liable up to the full amount for their tort. Several liability is when a party is responsible for only a proportion of something (for example, you break someone's leg and someone else breaks their arm. You're only responsible for the cost of the broken leg.)

Joint and several liability is when the plaintiff can go after any individual tortfeasor for the full amount of a claim and it's up to the defendants to sort out which of them is responsible for what portion. This is a rule in 46 out of 50 states so, no, the man isn't full of bs and no his license shouldn't be revoked. Read up on the law. Rolling Eyes

Also, it has to be reasonable to believe that the parties you're suing could actually have caused the injury so, no, 3 month old baby sister who can't use the computer can't be sued for violating copyright law by illegally downloading rips of Funi's streams.

Actually, I'm fairly certain a 3 month old can't be sued PERIOD. I think the low end of the tortfeasor age spectrum for the court actually holding someone liable for injuries is around 4-5. (You know, when a child can actually understand that an action might not be a good idea.)

jmaeshawn wrote:
He's basically saying the only reason that they aren't prosecuting AMV makers is because the AMV is on Youtube or other streaming sites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like if the exact same AMV was on a torrent or rapidshare (or any other downloading site) instead of streaming, he would sue them for making and uploading it.
You're not following the context. The context of the interview is the illegal and copyright violating use of Funi's subs or their dubs. He was only making the point that you don't find the AMVs and other fair use stuff in the same places as the injurious stuff. He said that generally Funi is less concerned with streaming stuff then gave the example of AMVs for the reason why, mentioning where you don't find them which then served as a segue to how they're planning to expand efforts against the RapidShare uploaders.

In other words, Funimation has to sort through all the fair use of their video to find the illegal uses when it comes to streaming so it's HARDER for them to police the infringing streaming. It's EASIER for them to police the downloads.

jmaeshawn wrote:
I'm not a pirate, I just really dislike lawyers and their faulty legal practices.
You clearly don't know how the law works but you think you can judge the legal practices of someone who actually graduated from law school and passed the bar? Really?

jmaeshawn wrote:
That's what I'm saying. I'm saying it's wrong to sell, to borrow your example, a T-shirt of Edward Elric in order to make a profit but I think it should be fine to sell only to compensate yourself for the materials of making it. (For example, cost of T-shirt and ink)
You really don't understand the issue.

The part of the T-shirt that is the problem is the image of Edward Elric. That's the part that infringes on Funimation's license and copyright law. The person making that T-shirt HAS NO RIGHT to sell it with that image! The person didn't create Edward Elric, does not own the rights to him nor has he licensed said rights from the owners nor received ANY permission to use that copyrighted intellectual property.

The people buying that bootleg Edward Elric shirt aren't buying just any damn T-shirt, they are specifically buying an Edward Elric T-shirt! The infringer is relying upon the fact that use of copyrighted material that they do not have the right to use will sell that shirt! It doesn't matter if they aren't making any money on it because every time they sell something using that copyrighted material, that is money that isn't going to the people who do have the right!

If the bootleg wasn't available, people would have to buy official merchandise to get something with Edward Elric on it.

It's simple.

Melanchthon wrote:
How is this different than watching the show on TV?
The people who own the rights to the show chose to put it on TV, often PAYING to get it on TV. The owners of the rights did not agree to fansubbers putting the copyrighted material on the net. That is the difference. Funimation paid for the right to distribute the anime. The fansubbers and people ripping Funi's subs and dubs DID NOT PAY the rights holders nor did they even ASK PERMISSION.

Also, minor thing, but a lot of TV in Japan is taxed. Your internet? Not so much.

Melanchthon wrote:
Extra credit: Using Plato's Theory of Forms, explain how the Form of Watching Anime Through the Television is different than the Form of Watching Anime Through the Internet. Show your work.
Meh, the form isn't the issue. It's the lack of right and permission to use that form by the parties being sued that is the issue.

If you paid money for the right to do something and then someone else who didn't pay was doing it and breaking the law, wouldn't that annoy you too? Especially if it was your livelihood?
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maxxjulie



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 192
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 1:48 am Reply with quote
suing downloaders isn't going to make you popular with the younger crowd. metallica's rep among young people took a nosedive since napster. personally, i download fansubs and buy dvd's too. if not for fansubs, i wouldn't have 400 anime dvd's in my collection. i like to sample before i buy. sometimes i more then just sample, but eventually i buy the dvd's. reading this scumbag sounding lawyer douche's interview is turning me off to funimation. next time i'm ordering anime dvd's i'll pass on any funimation releases. seems they're more interested in ruining peoples lives over downloading cartoons instead of focusing on the quality of their product.
i know this is viz, but any naruto fans want to compare the video quality and translation quality of crunchyroll's releases and the fansubs by taka? the free "illegal" release is superior to the professionally encoded and translated crunchyroll garbage. why would any sane person pay for hamburger when you can get steak for free?
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 1:53 am Reply with quote
Rukiia wrote:
jmaeshawn wrote:
"If you can't determine who committed the violation of illegally downloading, I'll sue everybody in the house. Even your 3 month old baby sister."

Animals will probably be included too considering most people consider their pets as part of their family. So you'd be extra screwed then. Rolling Eyes


You mean like when your, say, pet rabbit, starts downloading porn depicting footballs that are painted to resemble rabbits? (the little perverts.)

I hate it when that happens.
Razz
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teh*darkness



Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 901
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 2:47 am Reply with quote
Richard J. wrote:
Allow me to briefly explain joint and several liability because clearly you and several other posters don't understand how it works...clipped for space

Following on from your explanation there, the whole thing about suing your baby sister? Seems that all the people who were confused also mixed together two different examples from Mr. Stone.

The Article wrote:
ANN: For the subpoenas that have been successful, have any revealed infringers under the age of 18? Or if you can't answer that specifically, what would theoretically happen in that case?
ES: There aren't as big distinctions in civil law for minors. You see a lot of exceptions in criminal law. But you can sue minors...or "infants". The law refers to someone under the age of 18 as an infant, which is kind of odd. But yeah, they can still be sued. Ultimately the account holder is responsible, and all the people we deal with have signed contracts with their service providers saying "I am responsible for what happens on my account."

and

The Article wrote:
ANN: How do you deal with the roommate issue, if you can't determine who committed the violation?
ES: That's what joint and several liability is for. Sue everybody in the house.

Those were two different segments there. Suing all roommates in a college dormroom and suing your little sister because she lives in your parents house with you and one of your parents is the account holder are two completely different things.

Melanchthon wrote:
3) Legitimacy reasons. This is how I look at it, and forgive me if it's politically incorrect. If I lived in Japan, say, I could watch these anime on TV for free (excluding Cable cost). I could tape these shows and watch them later (I know Japan has some draconian copyright laws, but I believe this is permissible). And if I liked a show, I could show my support by buying the dvd. Now, I do not live in the land of the rising sun, but the home of the brave, and so I can not watch these shows on TV. But I can watch fansubs, save them for later, and then buy the dvds, (assuming they are licensed).

First off, no, you couldn't watch these shows for free. Aside from a very few super popular and more kid-friendly shows, most anime are on cable/subscription channels, so it's not just normal cable fees to watch, on top of taxes for cable.
But that aside, in regards to this interview, Funimation wouldn't be going after you. If the show you're watching is unlicensed, then there is no US licensor to sue you for pirating their licensed content, let alone Funimation. And almost all shows that Funimation licenses, they stream somewhere, if not multiple somewheres. So if you, or others, truly use streams/fansubs/downloads as a preview to decide if you want to buy, there's no reason you can't preview the official stream of a licensed show rather than download a fansub using video ripped from Japanese tv and illegally distributed over the internet for your sampling purposes.

[BR]
[BR]
[BR]

All else aside, very interesting interview. It's nice to see that Funimation is taking this seriously. Though I realize the likelihood of piracy suddenly ending isn't very high, it's good to know they aren't just rolling over and letting it go on uncontested. And I like this lawyer. He knows what he's talking about, and he's very blunt about it. I can appreciate that.
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samuelp



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 3:53 am Reply with quote
The very fact that Evan Stone did this interview should tell everyone whose interests he's looking after.

And it isn't the anime industry's.
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Kyaa the Catlord



Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 300
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:57 am Reply with quote
As someone who supports gays and lesbians, I'm troubled that Anime news network has provided this lawyer a soapbox.
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gwern



Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 67
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:08 am Reply with quote
Kyaa the Catlord wrote:
As someone who supports gays and lesbians, I'm troubled that Anime news network has provided this lawyer a soapbox.


The upside of a soapbox is that it gives the person a chance to say what they really think; I can't remember the last interview on ANN that was so forthright and full of details and naming names.
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:23 am Reply with quote
Quote:
ES: That's what joint and several liability is for. Sue everybody in the house.

Please don't sue my body pillows!

Quote:
ES: Theoretically possible. If you're not sharing, the tracker will snub you, and most other clients will snub you too. If you're connected long enough and you're not seeding at all, the clients will go boom and the trackers will go boom. But in theory it's possible.

In theory? This is called P2P for some reason. Even if the trackers go boom you'll still download from another person.

Quote:
We have a special place for those people.

And it's called dog hell.
Quote:

If you've got a show that's freely available for online streaming, and you're still putting it up on BitTorrent? Especially if it's a rip— if it's a rip you can't claim that "our subs are better." What excuse do you have?

Oh. I thought that last lawsuit was for those downloading from Yibis and not your friendly Horrible subs. My bad.

... oh, wait.


Last edited by egoist on Tue May 10, 2011 10:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 1513
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:28 am Reply with quote
Kyaa the Catlord wrote:
As someone who supports gays and lesbians, I'm troubled that Anime news network has provided this lawyer a soapbox.


What the hell does that have to do with anything?
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Takeyo



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:13 am Reply with quote
Shenl742 wrote:
Kyaa the Catlord wrote:
As someone who supports gays and lesbians, I'm troubled that Anime news network has provided this lawyer a soapbox.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Quite a bit if you're familiar with Stone's history. IIRC, his old business strategy was to coerce settlements out of downloaders of gay pornography by effectively threatening to out them via legal proceedings. Swell guy.
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Mad_Scientist
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 12:06 pm Reply with quote
Takeyo wrote:
Shenl742 wrote:
Kyaa the Catlord wrote:
As someone who supports gays and lesbians, I'm troubled that Anime news network has provided this lawyer a soapbox.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Quite a bit if you're familiar with Stone's history. IIRC, his old business strategy was to coerce settlements out of downloaders of gay pornography by effectively threatening to out them via legal proceedings. Swell guy.


Interesting. I've heard this guy had a pretty nasty history, but never heard any details.

That said, he is a notable figure related to the industry, and I don't think ANN wants to put itself in a position of deciding who to or not to interview based on how nice a person they are.

Afterall, if they did that, what would happen if for example they got a chance to do an English interview with (insert famous mangaka whose made sexist remarks, there's one in particular I'm thinking of but I can't remember his name)? Should they choose not to interview him either because of those remarks?

Heck, imagine if they even got a chance to interview the infamous governer of Tokyo, who I've heard many things about indicating he is a very unpleasant person to say the least.
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