Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyopop To Move Away from OEL and World Manga Labels
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Abarenbo Shogun
 Posts: 1573 |
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Oh hey, look, just a few posts above you:
* Art wise, only Van Von Hunter looked "professional" enough. The rest...Some of them looked like it was drawn by a 2 yr old hyped up on fumes from Sharpies (War on Flesh) or their trying too hard to be "manga", but fail miserably (Sokoura Refugees suffers from excessive "black line tracing" syndrome. Plus the art looks to flashy than nice). * Story wise, some of them suffers from poor writing skills. DJ Milky's stuff in particular suffers from a lack of depth (Princess Ai and Juror 13), and it shows also with his uninspiring "Hip-Hop Electronica" music that replaced the staple Eurobeat in the Initial D Anime. Before you accsue me of being "Close-minded," please learn to look with your own two eyes first. |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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Except the comment about "bold statement " wasn't even referring to you, but to the original person I quoted.
And you don't think that trying to generalize a whole category of books is not being close minded? Each title is different enough with different talent that you should at judge them by an individual basis. Until you've read all of the OEL, it's kind of unfair to sum up all of OEL title as 'this"? Last time I remember, TP isn't the only one releasing "world" manga. Last edited by darkhunter on Mon May 08, 2006 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Abarenbo Shogun
Posts: 1573 |
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Too busy watching Bible Black, ask me later. |
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darkhunter
Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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No doubt they're using the term manga to sell their books, they are a business after all. Many people will either see the OEL manga market as a blessing or a cursed. Some feel that the market give them a chance to create/share their own manga. Other might feel that it's gimmicky and ripping off what's currently popular. There are many different perspective you can look at it. But if you are a well rounded individual that can make your own discision, I don't think you have to worry too much about "marketing" forcing you to buy stuff you don't want. 
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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I worry about marketing because it's giving the short end of the stick to anyone who's not conforming to Tokyopop's marketing gimick. I follow many small US comics publishers like say Oni Press or AiT/Planet Lar. God willing, someday I'd love to work for someone like them. Right now I'm trying to finish college and maybe get a web comic together with a friend who can actually draw.
Companies like Oni are getting middle finger from the marketing department at Tokyopop. There are plenty of other companies taking in young artists and writers, what makes Tokyopop so special? That they also release actual manga? That they cornered the bookstore market of manga? Well, I guess they did and I guess they are better in some repects because they did. Yet instead of allowing reconition of comics companies by using the term comics or graphic novels for American works, they want to dominate the market by calling US made books 'manga' just like the actual Japanese manga that has been selling so well. I think this is just deceptive marketing. Yes, I understand these artists and many fans think they're making American books inflienced by manga. So what? There have been other creators and companies doing the same damn thing. Blue Monday over at Oni Press is a prime exmaple. The author cites the artist of Ranma 1/2 and Inuyasha as an artistic inpiration. Usagi Yojimbo at Dark Horse is another good one. So whichever one company gets noticed by major bookstores, largely do to size format, and has the most marketing power gets to redefine terms so they can get even more market and power? Doesn't that seem rather unethical? Doesn't that create a monopoly? Please tell me someone else sees this nice little marketing gimmick/scam! This 'Global Manga' term is really just Tokyopop trying to control not only the manga market, but also strongarm the American comics. They may very well monpolize against these non-Marvel and DC comics, all the indipendent comics publishers that have trying so hard to stay afloat all these years. All because bookstores like the size format of their books. That's pretty digsuting. All I'm saying is that people need to open their eyes and see that Tokyopop's 'global manga' or 'oel manga' is nothing new. it's not this big revolutionary thing that they discovered. It's been going on for many years in this country, it's just never been noticed by the general public like this manga boom has. Instead of acknowlageing this movement, by insisting on the term manga, Tokyopop is insisting on hogging the spotlight and ignoring the works of all the comapnies before it. These are companies that helped create the indie comics market and even the manga market in the US that allowed Tokyopop to get a foothold in the firstplace. Yeah, it's nothing new in the buisiness world, screwing over those who helped get you where you are today. Plenty of companies have done the same thing. Still doesn't make it right. |
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Ztarr
 Posts: 44 Location: Canada |
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Wow, an arrogant American...haven't seen THAT before. -_- Let's say, for a moment, that everyone stops using the term 'manga'... Well, I'm a manga fan, and when I go into a store to buy some, I'm looking for manga, not "comic books". But in this magical world where everything is called 'comics', I go into the store and say "I'm looking for some comics". The store clerk shows me the latest X-men spinoff, Spiderman, Batman, some weird Indy series, another X-men spinoff, a Star Wars spinoff-- and then I say "No no, I like COMICS!" -I'm not going to say japanese comics, 'cause I don't care if they're from Japan or not. -I'm not saying comics, because it's not discriptive enough. The perfect word for both readers and publishers is MANGA. The readers know what it is, the publishers know what it is, the retailers know what it is. Everyone else can go back to reading their dictionary and hiding from the EVIL MARKETING CONSPIRACY! get a life. |
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Kouji
 Posts: 978 |
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Can somebody please post some PROOF that the reason why manga is popular in the U.S. right now is because of its size format? Everyone keeps saying "It's because of its size that manga is so popular!" but nobody has posted any PROOF that that's the reason why it is. Saying manga is popular only because of its size format is like saying anime is only popular because of English subtitles. Maybe, just maybe mind you, manga is popular in the U.S. not because of its size format but because people actually like the engaging storylines and unique characters and don't really give a damn about size format? I don't know about you, but that's why I read manga and I'm pretty sure nobody on these freaking forums reads manga because of the damn size format, so can we please stop placing the blame on the size format here unless you can prove that's why manga is popular? It's making whoever made this claim sound pretty stupid, IMO. And if you think manga only sells well because of its size format, you obviously weren't around in the mid-'90s when almost all the manga Tokyopop released in English were flipped, large, $2 single issues back when they were still called Mixxzine.
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The Xenos
Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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How dare you label me an arrogant American like that. I'm trying to keep thing inteligent and here you are name calling. If anything, I'd say Tokyopop is the arrogant American stealing the term manga for their own uses. I'm not saying not to call Japanese books manga. I'm all for that. I love the stuff. I read it as much as US comics. Who are you assuming these false things about me? You totally misinterpreted what I said. I -never- suggested to stop using the term manga for Japanese works. I apologize if my writing was confusing, but that is not what I said. I'm against calling American made books manga. I think it's a cheap marketing gimick. Let's make that clear. Here you are accusing me of arrogance and you're making an arrogant misunderstanding of what I said. My local comic stores sell both US comics and Japanese manga. They also have Korean Mahwa and European comics. They also have Chinese comics. Don't know what their proper term is. What yahoo do you have running your comic book store? Also, don't be all defensive. I'm pointing out how many US publishers have been trying to get away from this stupid Spider-man cliche you yourself have stuck in your mind. Perhaps your local store does too. There are plenty of publishers who don't, plenty of stores who don't. Tokyopop isn't helping this in the least. They have the power to, instead they're using it to prop themsevles up more.
I got a few of those. Never saw them selling too well. You don't see them doing that anymore do you? I don't remember seeing the local Barnes and Nobles filling the shelf with those. Do you? No, what really got Tokyopop into buisiness was that novel sized book. It's not really 'manga sized' anyway. That's what they're calling it after the fact. That's the current American term. I've heard that format refered to as tankubon. Manga in Japan is mostly released initially as an anothology on cheap paper. (Don't tell me that's not so. I had that in a college Japanese Pop Culture class. The teacher was from Japan. I'll take her word over some American fan.) Again, I don't see Tokyopop even trying this. I really don't think you can deny the power and reconiztion Tokyopop got by switching to that format. I know, futher study is needed to see if this is true. Correlation doesn't automatically mean causation. Yet is anyone looking into this? No. Tokyopop jumps the gun and credits it to their content. I saw US Publishers like Viz and Darkhorse publishing similar content for years. Yet they never hit this same boom Tokyopop did with their takubon sized books. Tokyopop publishes in a slighly smaller format, more like Japanese takubon, and suddenly things take off. Excuse me if noticing that lead me to belive that Tokyopop's size format is what lead to the boom. Tokyopop is more than happy to make you think they brought over manga. Yet they didn't. Viz and Dark Horse had been doing that for years, yet many fans are failing to acknowlage this. All they really did was find the right packaging for major book store chains and maybe the way to the right young market for it. Certainly that market is now eating up anything Tokyopop tells them is 'manga'. |
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Anime World Order
 Posts: 389 Location: Florida |
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This is unrelated to the subject at hand (Tokyopop's "global manga" marketing), but it interested me nonetheless:
I certainly would not argue that the success of manga in America was squarely due to its size format, but I will claim that the size format in conjunction with the price point was a key force behind its success. As others have pointed out, companies such as Viz and Dark Horse had been releasing similarly-sized compiled volumes of manga years before Tokyopop, but the difference was that these collections were often priced at about the $15-$20 mark, which people generally consider a bit too much to pay for a book you can finish in about an hour or two. Plus, they came out at a very slow pace, generally one every 8-12 months. With the exception of a few thousand people which constitute the direct market (comicbook store patrons), the general public is not willing to purchase comics in the traditional $2.50-$4.00 for a 32-page pamphlet (with ads) format, and it is my belief that this format is pretty much obsolete. Tokyopop did relatively okay for themselves back when they were Mixxzine due to the popularity of Sailor Moon at the time, but it was not until they started releasing their titles in the now-standard $10 for roughly 200 or so pages tankoban format that things REALLY took off for them. Without the added overhead of having to release the monthly issues first or flip the artwork, they could release new volumes every other month or so rather than one roughly every year (which is about the wait for most Dark Horse titles that continue to get monthly releases). Before someone jumps in and schools me, I'll note that the actual time and money saved isn't so much from the flipping, but the additional amount of retouching that has to be done as a result. But I digress into territory I know nothing of. Oh well, may as well continue doing that! Regular retailers were more keen to stock these smaller, cheaper editions over the full-sized comicbooks since the size of these editions were much closer in price and size to their standard paperbacks they carried and could be displayed in similar fashion (spine facing the front). By contrast, regular comics need to be displayed with the cover facing forward, which takes up much more shelf space. Notice that normal bookstores generally only limit their comics selection to a single turnstile. I would therefore conclude that the size format in conjunction with the price point of manga is a critical element behind the success of the medium. Of course, the large amount of content targeted towards females and younger readers was extremely important too.
I probably should have specified that any posts written by "Anime World Order" have been written by Daryl, but I imagine my podcast cohosts are relatively in agreement with me on this matter. |
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kwonnoh
Posts: 2 |
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Just like how the American manga fanbase fooled a lot of people by making them think that manga is suppose to be Japanese? By Japanese difinition, manga litally means comics. Which means, comics in general. See what's happening here. Tokyopop isn't the only one that changed the difinition of "manga". -- Also, people who claim that manga is suppose to be Japanese, seem to call Korean comics.. manga, for some strange reason. |
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kwonnoh
Posts: 2 |
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Didn't the American fanbase steal a Japanese word, and decided to change it's meaning so they use it to call Japanese comics? I would call that taking a term for their own uses.
You should also be against American anime fanboys from calling themselves.. "otaku". Seriously, they aren't Japanese. Why use a Japanese word to describe what they are? |
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The Xenos
Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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Acutally, I am. I had heard it had a negative connotation in Japan. When I read an article on the origins of the term in Japan for that Japanese Culture Class I took, I was almost appauled I ever used the term. It seems a number of child murders were commited and the murderer was a self professed otaku. The word became a household name in connection to this case. I Japan, it seemed to split fandom. It had a negative connotation in the media, but some still insisted on it as a tag of pride. Though now, as in America, it sounds like the term is being used to lure anime and manga fans to buy products. Look at Densha Otoku. Nice little show, but so full of marketing, it's rather sickening. Of course let's not ignore the whole idea that the messageboard posts on 2channel were just plants by the people making the books, manga, and TV show and movie. Also, in this class, I learned otaku still doesn't just mean anime or manga fan. There are also military otaku, model otaku, photography otaku. It's a really diverse term that can applies to any field of interest. It's just a number of anime fans, inlcuding myself at one point, think it pretains to anime, but it was never meant to. That's how it's been interpreted over here. I just wish people would educate themselves on the meaning of the word and not just assume whatever these marketing people tell them. Also, I too am disturbed at the number of fans who just absorb Japanese culture, or rather a sliver of it, and act like they themselves are Japanese. Now I love Japanese culture too, among some other world cultures I'm interested in, but to neglect your own hertitage and nationality and put this Japanese standard first? I find that highly disturbing. |
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blueharlequin
 Posts: 81 Location: Las Vegas, NV (No, we don't live in hotels here) |
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I call Japanese "graphic novels" manga.
I call Korean "graphic novels" manhwa I call Chinese "graphic novels" manhua. I call American/European/etc. "graphic novels" graphic novels. My coworkers call them Japanese comic books and occasionally my boss refers to them as "anime books." This neither bothers nor annoys me. But I do accost them and have to give a detailed review on the book and point out that it is "manga," "manhwa," "manhua" or an American "graphic novel" simply because I believe that they should read it. I don't care what other people call them, I know what they are to me. Marketing stategy (as far as advertising goes) means very little to me. I am more interested in what titles are licensed/released and how often (aka publication schedule). If the prospect of "global manga" (Ack! I am confused, what AM I supposed to call it?) doesn't appeal to you write TokyoPop. I am sure if more BUYERS evince their interest in Japanese manga then they will shift their interests back there. (Ah, I am tired, thinking about all of these subjective word meanings and semantics is making my head hurt.) As for the quality of "OEL manga" or "world manga" or "global manga" or whatever the heck whomever calls it. I can say as far as my opinion goes I do find most of it lacking. And before you say "have you read it all?" I can say "YES" I read books like some people eat potato chips. Not to be all negative, but I did like Dramacon. P.S. I do not by "comic books" anymore cause keeping track of the X-Men world was getting too complicated and they simply are not worth the price or effort. -Oh- and if you flame me for my "ignorance" it will most likely be ignored or laughed it 
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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Just a little food for thought with regard to this topic that I just came across the following on Yahoo!:
"Japan is planning a campaign to improve its image abroad by promoting its pop culture, including a possible international prize in Japanese-style manga comics... ...The pop culture campaign will start as soon as the current fiscal year ends in March 2007, a foreign ministry official said. "We are considering the establishment of an international manga prize for manga artists abroad, promotion of Japanese animation through our diplomatic missions and a cultural exchange program for foreign students," the official said." Article can be found by clicking on Yahoo! link |
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gohmifune
Posts: 26 |
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This is an interesting thread. People are getting up in arms because of TP skewing a subculture for financial gain. Which is understandable. I've been an anime fan going on a decade, I remember when it wasn't popular, manga was about and inch and a half taller, and DBZ was dubbed in Canada. This was a good time, because this was before people started worshipping anime, this was before the "Advent of the Otaku". Then Gundam Wing came along and showed that marketing can control people and hype.
There are two problems with calling non-japanese comics manga: 1) These books are influenced by the general manga, not the "good stuff" not the things that stand out. No one imitates Phoenix, Slam Dunk, Uzumaki, Devilman, or Golgo 13. It is all about imitating the things that are popular, not the things that can be viewed as important, and because of this, the good stuff gets overlooked, and not even released stateside. 2) There is also the problem of condoning easy ownership of something. A guy "thinks" he can draw something, and thus he's an anime fan, but in turn it isn't very good, so when someone who can't tell the difference between that and something Japanese, they may think all things Japanese are lame. Anime doesn't need a bad image, it is everywhere, and it is oversaturating entertainment, and not in a good way. Call me an anime snob, maybe it is true, but if something is really good then why does it have an OEL or World Manga label, why can't it be called what it is, "a comicbook". If there were shame in doing comicbookss then Kia Asamiya wouldn't have done Batman and come here to do X-Men, Amano wouldn't have done Sandman and Wolverine/Elektra, and Miller wouldn't be supposedly working on Metal Gear Solid. Oh, and there wouldn't have been a Spider-man manga and tv show, along with a Hulk manga. OEL, World Manga, Global Manga, it is all a manipulative marketing ploy into convincing people to immerse themselves into a "Manga Culture", and all it does is keep people from being creative. |
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