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The Mike Toole Show - Whatever Happened to Haruhi Suzumiya?


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Sylpher3



Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:21 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Sylpher3 wrote:
Well, as someone who doesn't understand the appeal of Haruhi (I came into anime after this phenomenon) terms like clever gimmickry, strong characters and smart writing kinda fall flat on me. I simply don't know what you mean by them or why you hold them in high value with regard to Haruhi so would you care to elaborate on it by perhaps using examples from within the show?

1. Haruhi was a force of personality unlike any other in anime. This is, I think, beyond dispute. Whether you actually like the character or not is another story, but she grabs your attention and keeps it.
2. Kyon is deeply beloved as the narrator whose sardonic observations shape the story like few others before him. Though he comes across as the straight man in a loony bin, the series also gradually implies that he tolerates Haruhi's foolishness because he is drawn to her will to not give up on the fancies that he claims that he set aside, and so he enjoys all of the shenanigans he gets drawn into more than he cares to admit. That makes him interesting.

All of the supporting characters have their own merits, too, but I don't want to make this post too long.

As for the cleverness and wit? The irony that Haruhi is secretly surrounded by the very kind of people that she's trying to find is one example; that she is a god who can't ever know that she's a god is another, as is the constant question on where Haruhi's will influencing things stops and where self-determination starts. These are concepts that have been touched on before in sci fi and fantasy, but rarely to the extent shown here. That the movie story she comes up with isn't far from the truth she's unaware of is also a massive bit of cleverness, as is the way the story builds into itself a way to explain off pretty much anything it does, whether it involves time travel, warping reality, or whatever. There are many other examples, too, but these are just some big ones.


Thank you for your explanation. I recognized most of the examples you pointed out when I watched Haruhi, but I don’t hold the same high appreciation like most fans. So the show has a main character with a vibrant personality, a narrator who isn’t straightforward, supporting characters with own interests, it has irony, self-awareness and analogies but… so what? What’s the merit of all these distinctive quality properties? I didn’t find any of these features compelling or interesting in this show.
The main theme of the story is to analyze, observe and most of all keep the goddess entity Haruhi pleased to preserve each parallel world, right? So basically Kyon and the supporting characters do everything to keep the initial status quo (and they succeed throughout).
Now I think that’s where my main problem with the show lies. I didn’t find the concept, the execution of it or the dynamics particularly engaging.

I guess in the end it’s a matter of personal judgment. So while I don’t resonate with the fans, I can somewhat see why one would highly value these aspects.
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bravetailor



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 817
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:13 am Reply with quote
Kaioshin_Sama wrote:
[With Haruhi nothing else has come close to the sheer fervor bordering on idolatry and fanatic evangelism that it's most ardent fans showed for it before or since that first season, not Cowboy Bebop, not Evangelion.


I think Evangelion was comparable. I was there, I remember when Eva discussions were 90% of most anime forums of the late 90s. Granted, anime fandom back then was considerably smaller than in the Haruhi era, which occurred at the peak of the 2000s anime boom.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:24 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Alright everyone. Happy now?


Well, you did actually make a point for once, rather than the usual insults, condescending and belittling remarks and toxic attitude all while contributing absolutely nothing to the actual discussion whatsoever. You might notice some of those posts are gone, I suggest in the future if you're going to post you cut the attitude you love to have towards people and you actually contribute more than just the equivalent of "you're wrong and I'm laughing at how wrong you are and how superior I am".
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Kaisos Erranon



Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Posts: 214
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:37 am Reply with quote
[insults removed]
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Sven Viking



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1032
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:08 pm Reply with quote
Flared wrote:
2. The "Endless-Eight/Kyon-kun denwa" controversy was enraging so many fans it was a joke (I'll never forget some of the message boards of that time) and so embarassing for KyoAni at the time that it put a major dent in the faith many had in the Haruhi brand. (However, the film made up for that fiasco to many).


I'm in that group. The film was excellent and made up for Endless 8... barely. I'd like to see another series or film.

Personally I think playing the episodes out of order added considerably to the show's popularity. Mike mentions Primer... While not actually changing the story, the out-of-order episodes do force your brain to try to piece things together in a similar way to when watching something like Primer.
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luffypirate



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 3186
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:46 am Reply with quote
I thought Endless Eight was a blast. I've seen it at least five times through. Every time I re-watch it I do it in one go. Its like a mini movie. Its never been done before in anime. I appreciate it for bringing a new idea to the table.
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Sven Viking



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1032
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:40 am Reply with quote
luffypirate85 wrote:
I thought Endless Eight was a blast. I've seen it at least five times through. Every time I re-watch it I do it in one go. Its like a mini movie.
At almost three hours, there's nothing 'mini' about it.

luffypirate85 wrote:
Its never been done before in anime.
And there's a reason for that.

luffypirate85 wrote:
I appreciate it for bringing a new idea to the table.
And I don't appreciate it for bringing the same thing to the table eight times Smile. Anyway, glad someone enjoyed it.
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Chrno2



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: USA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:47 am Reply with quote
Great column. Yeah I enjoyed the Haruhi series, but I wasn't much of a fan of it. I enjoyed the buzz around it but for some reason it didn't really grab me to the point of wanting to own it even though I enjoyed the series. I did want to own it but after I passed it by so many times it eventually became a series I could care less whether I own it or not. I'm sort of getting to the point that there are only very few series I will watch again. After Haruhi, I doubted I would revisit it. Maybe it's because of me and how I perceived the main character Haruhi. I probably looked at her from one side. But I guess I may have to revisit this at some point. But after reading this column I also realized just how important this series is during various eras of anime that kind of a breakthrough among all the "mundane". So it is a series deserving of a top spot.

Speaking of "moe" I for years tried to ponder this movement in anime. Sometimes it's nice but other times it gets downright annoying to the point that you want to see something different. I remember some years ago when Witchblade came out, people on forums used to question the "moeness" in that show. One vlogger who use to review the show raw used to post articles from anime magazines. There was this contest where they must have taken data from fans and picked characters that fall into the "tsundere" characterization. Haruhi was at the top of this list, along with Rin Tohsaka from Fate/Stay Night, C.C from Code Geass and a few others. Before you knew it someone tried putting together a wiki entry on defining "tsundere" then listing every possible character they believed belonged in that category. Since then that list was removed and one was picked. The title fell to Asuka Shoryu Langley as the prime example of "tsundere". Yet, the concept of what "tsundere" is goes back a way. You can easily find characters from earlier periods of anime that fall into that mold, it's just that the whole concept of what is "tsundere" is another extension (trope) of what is "moe". Which I guess is some odd "renaissance" period of anime that is either making or breaking it. I doubt we'll be seeing any end to this. Seems more serious flicks will be considered an artform for maturer audiences. Hell, you can find "moe" in some serious features.

Some examples I can think of from old to new:

Code Geass - C.C. (tsundere) is that considered moe to some it is.
Denno Coil - Isako (tsundere, with a soft side and you find out why) is that considered moe? Definitely.
Black Lagoon - Roberta (?) Only moe when she's got the maid outfit on and she's pulling a Clark Kent.
Black Lagoon - Fabiola (moe, and dangerously loyal)
R.O.D - Yomiko Readman (clumsy, bed hair yet happily dangerous) Definitely a "moe" trait. Let's not forget large breasted with glasses trope.
RIN: Daughters of Mnemosyne - Rin Asōgi glasses, kind trope
Pumpkin Wine - L (that's OS big girl moe)
Tenchi Muyo - Ryoko even she could be considered that when she's showing her feelings.
Vampire Princess Miyu - Miyu
School Days - Mikoto
Cat Girl Nuku Nuku - Nuku Nuku
Lucky Star - The whole damn cast.
Azumanga Daioh - certain members of the cast.
Mai HiME - Natsuki Kuga (?) yep there something to be found in a girl with a kick ass bike that kicks ass but is embarrassed to just relax.
Sally the Witch and possibly Ge Ge Ge no Kitaro, since they like remodeling Neko Musume.
Cutey Honey - Honey, nuff said, despite Go Nagai's can opener side burns and locks.

And the list goes on an on if you can find it. Only thing is it seems that "moe" is defining deal in this era. I'd like to see a list where we could take a look at some characters from the past being considered "moe" in the future.

Quote:
Haruhi was a force of personality unlike any other in anime. This is, I think, beyond dispute. Whether you actually like the character or not is another story, but she grabs your attention and keeps it.


I'll definitely agree to that. And that's why I watched it.
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Mesonoxian Eve



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 1858
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:20 pm Reply with quote
When the second season of Haruhi came out, it didn't take long for fans to post their dismay at having nearly 8 episodes identical to each other. Some even said they watched all 8, but any re-watch, and they skip the other 7, because the other episodes were good.

I couldn't justify spending the money on a season of episodes and half being wasted. I'm sure KyoAni (et al) thought it was a good idea, but it looks to me not too many appreciated it.

I'd still like to get back into the series, but with Bandai pulling out, and its catalog pretty much gone (save the recent Sunrise rescues), I'll have to watch the episodes in another manner, but it's no longer on my "must see" list.

I'll eventually get the movie, but some have stated watching the second season will be helpful since the movie refers to it at times.

It's a shame. I can't recall a series which flew up on the radar so fast, and vanished as quickly. It had potential.

If there's one thing I am thankful for owning the first season: it previewed Lucky Star and that series led to an import of the bluray because I just love it.

Good article this week. Again.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:38 pm Reply with quote
My problem with Haruhi is that its first 6 chronological episodes (Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya I-VI) are too good. That is, those episodes showed me that the author had a brilliant concept and wrote an excellent arc, one of my favorite arcs in all of anime. The bad part is that after those episodes it just goes off into episodic nonsense, as if the writer is just writing fluff to elongate the series. Sure episodic fluff can be nice every now and then, but having it consist of over half the series was a huge let down for me.Then it got even worse with the second season, where only the first episode, 'Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody' was actually worth the watch.

So yeah, Haruhi is yet another brilliant concept that is drowning in pointless nonsense so the author can just keep writing books. Disappointing, but at least those first 6 episodes are worth the watch alone.
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Chrno2



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: USA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:05 am Reply with quote
I have a question since we're on the subject of Haruhi being rescued was there any mention of Lucky Star getting picked up?
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:50 am Reply with quote
A bit late to this party, but for me "moe" started when "Kanon"and "Air" appeared.
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Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:13 pm Reply with quote
As far as I can remember my personal experience with moe started with Cardcaptor Sakura. Of course I had never even heard of "moe" at that time, but when I learned the definition of moe as an emotional response I realized that I had been feeling it for both Sakura and Tomoyo.
I do not think of moe as being anything other than completely subjective and personal.
I cannot really talk about the "moe era" as an objective concept.

I love the The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya franchise.
I love the anime, the novels, the manga, the other manga, and the other manga.Smile [Edit: I forgot about the music. I love the music.] I hardly ever buy merchandise though, so I cannot include that.
If more of the anime was made I would definitely buy it, but for reasons that have been explained here I do not expect it to happen, which makes me a bit sad.
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sonic720



Joined: 29 Aug 2013
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:30 pm Reply with quote
Chrno2 wrote:
I have a question since we're on the subject of Haruhi being rescued was there any mention of Lucky Star getting picked up?


Unfortunately, as of now, neither Haruhi nor Lucky Star has been re-licensed by any of the North American anime companies. I do expect both to get picked up at some point, however long it may take. Also, and this is just me speculating, since Kadokawa and KyoAni are behind both titles they may have to be acquired as part of a package deal.
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Macron One



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:04 pm Reply with quote
sonic720 wrote:
Chrno2 wrote:
I have a question since we're on the subject of Haruhi being rescued was there any mention of Lucky Star getting picked up?


Unfortunately, as of now, neither Haruhi nor Lucky Star has been re-licensed by any of the North American anime companies. I do expect both to get picked up at some point, however long it may take. Also, and this is just me speculating, since Kadokawa and KyoAni are behind both titles they may have to be acquired as part of a package deal.


It would be great if the Haruhi series were rescued and released on Blu-Ray. I already own both seasons on DVD, but would certainly double-dip for a BD upgrade. Speaking of KyoAni titles, i'm starting to wonder why Nichijou and Hyouka still aren't licensed for R1 release. Both are very impressive series, so i'm surprised that they seem to have been ignored by US anime distributors for so long.
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