Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Copy-Cat Catharsis
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RoverTX
 Posts: 424 |
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Isn't it the same on this side of the pacific though? Its not like the hardcore Otaku's over here, with the same interests as their hardcore Japanese counter parts, aren't buying either. I really don't think this is an issue of appealing to the west or the east, its just that when money gets tight the fanatics will be the ones who keep buying. So its only logical that studios will make stuff that fanatics will want to buy. The same can be applied to production values, who doesn't expect production values to fall with a world recession? Also, if it was an issue of only appealing to the east and not the west, we wouldn't see these hardcore shows being licensed over here, on the other hand we have seen such shows being licensed over here, and doing seemingly well in the current market. In short, during good times the market expands and tries to capture new viewers, I think in this way more western oriented shows where just a by product and not really a trend to itself. In bad time it focuses on the fanatic base, which exists on both sides of the Big P, because they will buy even if it means giving up a meal. |
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mayo160
 Posts: 13 Location: Chittagong, Bangladesh |
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[quote="Bonham"]
that, sadly, is how the world works. precious few can mantain a level of excellence (not even counting creativity, that's statistically even more improbable) after they've reached a high like akira kurowasa or osamu tezuka managed to - and tezuka probably did it by sheer brute-force of the amazing volume of stuff he did. just how many directors reach their previously-scaled peaks? think ridley scott, oliver stone, gene roddenberry, spielberg.... hell, even michael bay. the best you can hope for is that if their previous work was awesome enough, their later stuff will be respectable (like eden of the east). or, if you want to see even clearer examples, look to music: eric clapton, santana, jimmy page, black sabbath, joe satriani, michael jackson, van halen, bruce springsteen, ac/dc, motorhead...... either boring, stale derivatives or utter crap. there's a lifespan/limit for greatness from a certain human brain, so when it goes, you'd best start looking elsewhere for your fix. to paraphrase answerman, the best that's usually possible is material that's derivative but well-done and enjoyable, like bob dylan, the eagles, iron maiden and satriani's latest, for example. my take on it is that once somebody comes up with a hit/killer product, they get used to the success and lose both the reason & drive to take risks (or even get downright scared of it). what follows is that they either quit the race altogether, or, more usually, start deriving and copying from their own back catalogs - not illegal but definitely not pretty. the successful resurrections that happen usually occur when something comes along to jolt the sameness out - like new personnel/creative minds, or new influences, or, basically, new risks. going back to anime/manga, just see what bleach has degenerated into. or maybe naruto, pokemon. gundam also has its fair share of crappy releases, while transformers has its fair share of watchable stuff 
and on a slightly different tangent, i feel for miura kentarou: he's become such a slave to the berserk-ness of berserk that he'll probably never get to make anything else, at least while it's ongoing. |
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UtenaAnthy
 Posts: 694 |
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But what about those fans who did buy the releases of the DVDs of their favourite shows, and who still have complaints? I do not think there's no good anime coming out now, but I am a fan of "artsy/highbrow/whatever you want to call it" anime who did buy all those shows I really liked. I don't care about English dubs (though I do sympathise with those who have difficulty reading due to sight problems/dyslexia/etc), I don't care what colour the subtitles are as long as I can read them (and I'd certainly rather have the "ugly" yellow and plain font that's easy to read than the kind of subs you get on a not inconsiderable number of fansubs, though I do watch some fansubs of older unlicensed/long term OOP shows). I also don't care about localisation so long as it doesn't involve editing of the DVD release or the absence of the original language track and English subs on ditto, and so long as they don't severely mess the show around like they did with Cardcaptors (I don't object to a little editing for blood on TV broadcasts, but what they did with that show was sexist and homophobic and resulted in a vastly inferior product, I did buy what I could of the unedited sub-only DVD release, sadly I never got the second half), it does annoy me when they change the character names (I'm not talking about things like with Duck/Ahiru in Princess Tutu because HER. NAME. IS. DUCK., I'm not even particularly bothered by the changing of Usagi to Bunny in the older Sailor Moon release, but I don't like when they change character names purely because supposedly no-one can pronounce those funny japanese names), it wouldn't stop me from buying a release, but I still find it irritating. Other than that localisation isn't a dealbreaker, I'll complain, but it won't necessarily stop me from buying the DVDs (certainly not if the subtitle track is free of it). It's not like I can't stand fanservice or moe (I like K-ON! for example, and I also thought the Master of Mosquiton OVA was pretty fun, I might even check out Godannar at some point), but I guess I'm just pointing out that it's not like the only people who buy DVDs are those who love fanservice/moe filled anime and/or have no interest in anything else, in other words, don't blame me for someone else's pettiness. |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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It amuses me when people say there's 'too much moe' because they never, ever,
ever. name the series they're talking about. You get people claiming 'just a bunch of moe crap this season pass' yet anyone who actually knows what's currently airing will see only maybe one or two shows max could be classified as 'moe', as loose as the description for it is. Really, anytime someone uses 'moe' as an argument, it's a good sign they have no idea what they're talking about and probably haven't watched anime since 'the good old days'. I think it just stems from America's inherent sexism in the media. All shows in America must default to male main characters (seriously, animation for/starring girls in America is literally dead; all you get are the occasional Barbie show). So when they see girls as the main character in an anime, they assume it's either for only girls or 'pedophile moe loving otaku'. The idea of female main characters is so foreign to American audiences I suppose it makes them confused. Madoka? Must be moe, I mean, it's so cute and innocent afterall  Mitsuodmoe? Obviously moe, what with all the girls getting beat up and bleeding out every episode for the sake of comedy. Ano Hana? "This Meiko girl is getting too much screentime, it's just a trashy moe anime with no redeeming qualities"
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Anymouse
 Posts: 685 |
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Speaking seriously, there are some TV shows that are very good and defy genre conventions. They can use whatever characters they want. I considered the Air movie to be an excellent movie. I find the Ghost in the Shell series to be good as well. They communicated things which aren't spoken enough nowadays, and that made them interesting. I found the first part of Evangelion to be crap. This does not mean that we need more "Moe" however it is defined, nor does it mean we need less/more "Sci FI". It means we need more good and meaningful productions, and less crap. Kenji Kamiyama can point in a good direction. Satoshi Kon should also be followed. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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I've actually seen people who did say that and mean it. 
I just miss the days people called things 'comedy', 'drama', 'action', and 'harem'. Now it's 'moe' and other broad terms. Shows like Azumanga Daioh, Chobits, and Card Captor Sakura, which are held as 'classics', would be called 'moe trash' if they came out these days. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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I dunno about CCS. Could something be considered moe when the target audience were actual 10-year olds? |
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NonoAsumy
Posts: 90 |
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Absolutely not how absurd would it be for a show aimed at 10-year- old girls to contain anything that could be considered moe
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Maximym Meyham!!
 Posts: 46 |
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I have a friend who likes both Shounen and Moe anime. He isn't even remotely insane. Don't get me wrong, not everyone is like that, but he's a legitimate good person. The guy even works out and lives his life. He's even been in a few long term relationships. And if there's people out there that enjoy it for reasons that aren't creepy or insane, then you know, I have nothing against it. Brad Jones, AKA, the Cinema Snob, is a fan of exploitation films. People may talk about it "fills space and isn't good compared to all of what Hollywood made", but if people like it, shut the hell up, I say. It's insulting and plain rude. And that does suck that in American entertainment and storytelling, the protagonist role always has to be a male. I'm so fed up with pretentious BS about being "manly" and dumb p$%#$ waving crap that just falls into #@$%#$ repetitive and lame. It's really hypocritical to see that the nation that claimed to "pioneer" women's rights is still full of pretentious male chauvinistic BS. Even [expletive] comic books don't take their female characters seriously, only as sex objects and something to attract the male audience solely with T&A. I thank Linkara for pointing this all out to me, and it's still sad that stupid #$%$ like what we've been talking about is still being pumped out. Every nation has its sexist jackasses, but anime and Japanese video games have taught me anyone of any gender, creed, status of any sort or race can kick ass. Yeah, it's from Japan, but it's humanistic and pleasant to see the potential and capability in one style and medium, which can ring potential in other styles and mediums. |
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Petrea Mitchell
Posts: 438 Location: Near Portland, OR |
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I'd like to add, on the AM2 topic, that this is hardly new. Creation Entertainment is particularly notorious for having scheduled several of its events up against established fan-run conventions back in the 1990s. Even today, just mentioning Creation around long-time conrunners is enough to draw murderous looks.
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah...you may want to reconsider making accusations of media sexism in the same breath you defend moe or other otaku anime. Probably gonna turn into a bit of a pot/kettle situation there. |
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Seca
 Posts: 149 Location: WA |
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Apparently someone hasn't heard of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, beloved show of girls, women and men. And then there's the upcoming Avatar, the Last Airbender TV series that will star a female lead character. I mean I know U.S. media still has a long way to go but it's getting there if you look at what some of the newer generations of animators are putting out. And I find it hard to say anime is leaps and bounds better than American animation as even though it's better at having lead female characters it still has some issues with how said female characters are presented and treated. |
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Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
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I think there is room to make Judgments regarding quality and morality in entertainment. Some would say it is just a matter of taste, but I want a broad sense of coherency in my life. I believe in judging what I watch and read so I can fit it into my beliefs. Pure entertainment can sometimes be simply boring or bad entertainment. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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I already covered how silly it is to use 'moe' in a serious argument. Well, I think 'moe' anime like Utena and Kuragehime are better than any cartoons for or starring girls we have ever made. That's the nice thing, just because it stars a girl doesn't make it for girls: like Soul Eater or Moribito.
My Little Pony falls under the Barbie/Bratz category I mentioned; generic shows based on dolls with episodic, simplistic stories for no reason than advertisements. I'll go ahead and assume you're joking for my own sanity 
Avatar didn't really impressed with the first series, and the way they talked in that preview I read made her out like the Kim Possible stereotype and doesn't fill me with any incentive to see it or hope. (i.e. the flawless perfect female... you know when you get lines like "and she can take care of herself and hold her own just like one of the guys!" it's going to be one of those series. Hopefully she wont be paired with a bumbling goofy idiot guy to make her look good) Even if I give you those two examples, that's two shows out of how many? For the past how many years, and who knows how many more? As opposed to at least half of each new anime season will star females without anyone batting an eye? There's just no real comparison in that department.
The newer generation of animators seem to insist on using Flash animation and making shows as cheap and inexpensive as they can while pandering to the youngest children they can, given what's on TV these days. Also, it must always star a boy, because Adventure Time, Chowder, Flapjack, Problem Solverz, and whatever else CN airs obviously wouldn't work with female leads (according to the executives, anyway) Can't say this newer generation gives me much hope. Television animation in general here is dying, with each year Flash animation slowly creeping over and live action sitcoms being more profitable. Creatively, it's pretty much already dead. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Since when Utena and Kuragehime are moe? Since when every show that has a female character as a protagonist is moe? As a moe hater I don't see anything moe about Utena, Kuragehime and Moribito. |
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