Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Copy-Cat Catharsis
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NonoAsumy
Posts: 90 |
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My Little Pony falls under the Barbie/Bratz category I mentioned; generic shows based on dolls with episodic, simplistic stories for no reason than advertisements. I'll go ahead and assume you're joking for my own sanity 
[/quote] Have you watched it? In its depiction of females it is far more progressive than most of anime and western animation. It is cleverly written and pedagogic valuable.
As far as my understanding of the word "moe" goes "moe hater" is an oxymoron. God this entire debate is so incredibly silly... sry I needed to say that.Btw the most "moe" show I have ever seen is Kaiji and I liked it. |
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Aylinn
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Since moe lovers have difficulty in explaining what moe is I have my own definition that, at least, is practical and helps me to avoid series I have a non-existent probability of liking, so for me moe means stupid, clumsy, sometimes sexualized, useless and cute girls that are doing cute things and have a characteristic saccharine character design that is ugly. They look as if they were 12 years old at best, but are often told to be older and frequently have those characteristic big ‘raped’ eyes. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I agree that it's an impractical term to use because the term is indeed misused more often than not and the majority of fans do not seem to really know what it means anymore. However, neither that, nor your own apparent ignorance over what moe means serves to render it meaningless or useless.
Here's the trouble though. You complained that people assume any show starring a girl is either for girls or for otaku and pull out shows like Moribito as counterexamples. You're acting like some unfairness is being done to certain shows because people assume they're for girls or otaku when they aren't. All I can say to that is...such as? None of the examples you've offered fit that bill. I mean, I don't think even the most ardent moe-basher is mistaking Moribito for either of those things. Exactly what shows with a female lead are being assumed to be either for girls/otaku that aren't indeed for either girls or otaku? |
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Haterater
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I'll have to add on the MLP thing as well. Its a really good show and not like the other MLP shows of back then. The females have good personalities and the episodes have more care into them then generic stuff. Referencing many other works and listening to the fanbase at times(Derby Hooves). Lauren Faust did a wonderful job of bringing in many fans of gender and ages, IMO. They didn't have to do those things like bringing Faust, listening to the fan base, but they did. And that is what I want to see more of. I hope they continue these things for season 2 or at least make them more than generic run of the mill stuff. |
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TitanXL
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That's the point. no one really describe what moe is, and just use it to describe things they dislike, a blanket statement to replace the statement 'shows I don't like'.
Yes, I've seen it, and it's pretty poor. Poor art and animation (Stiff Flash animation, and lazily copy pasted characters all over) and the writing is mediocre; focusing on shoe-horned moral of the day episodic plotlines with shallow, one dimensional characters who never learn their lesson and will shift in personality and hold the idiot ball for the sake of the plot to move around (of the episodes I saw, the brainy one of the group seemed to be a complete moron when the plot of the episode required her to be so the paper thin plot could move along). It's pretty much run by executives to push toys. And it's not even like Digimon where despite pushing toys it has a great, emotional story full of drama, character development, and all that good stuff, it's 'we need to sell this toy, just push the character in this episode, I don't care how' akin to us being back in the 80s. To imply it even can come close to shows like PreCure or Moribito, or even Fullmetal Alchemist, Twelve Kingdoms, or Honey and Clover is silly, if not flat out insulting. Please don't insult the female authors, mangaka, and animators who have actually made a name for themselves in the world by saying My Little Pony is a better example of how females should make shows and be portrayed. It's generic kid's show fluff in every sense of the word.
Pretty much everything that comes out these days, all the people in the chart threads who complain 'nothing but moe garbage'. All the people who go into the talkback review threads and say the same (though at least they tend to get chewed out and asked 'Did you even read the review?' by people ). Like I said before, people complain about moe, but will never list shows or describe them and critique them. To present a challenge, to any moe bashers out there if they really want to prove me wrong, please explain how moe is killing the industry by looking at the current season. State the current shows you feel are moe, why, and more importantly, why you think they're bad shows. After all, the article has people saying 'amost everything is moe these days aimed at otaku'. Unless you list at least half the current season, I don't see how it's killing the industry in the slightest bit.
When your fanbase consists of 4chan that's not necessarily a good thing. So they made some background character with goofy eyes into a more prominent character because it was a 4chan meme. Good for them, Family Guy did similar by referencing Peanut Butter Jelly Time and Chuck Norris facts because they're popular on the internet. If it were me, I would have focused on making a good show instead of calling on internet memes, but again, that's just me. And from what I read, the creator is leaving the show after the first season. So much for 'creator driven' there, especially how she also mentioned the toy company pushing her to change stuff all the time and sell as much toys as she can and dumb everything down. Not exactly something we should be striving for. |
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enurtsol
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Moe is not killing the industry the same way slapstick humor isn't killing animation.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Again, pretty major pot/kettle situation here. This is exactly what pretty much all otaku oriented anime are. They're glorified commercials designed by committee to sell otaku expensive figures of sexy girls. It's really not very different from those Barbie shows and stuff that you're complaining about. The only difference is that the biggest target market in the west is little kids. In Japan, it's middle-aged weirdos. Neither is any more "creator driven" and the difference in target demographic is really the only reason you see the discrepancies you're complaining about. |
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NonoAsumy
Posts: 90 |
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I responded to your claim that My Little Pony was just a Barbie/Bratz kind of show. It is not. It´s approach on characterisation is vastly different and it even aims to be NOT like the generic Barbie/Bratz show. So when I said it is progressive I obviously took these kind of shows into consideration. And yeah its kid´s show fluff (It is aimed at 8 year old girls) but I would argue on the generic. The characters aren´t one dimensional they often show (especially in episodes that focus on them) genuine depth and self awareness. The plot is mostly character driven and based on the conflicts that are inherent to their constellation. On the writing: I said it was clever so I´ll provide you with some examples which I found to be just that. They tell ghost stories and Twilight Sparkle begins hers with "It was a dark and stormy night. Just like this one..." When we hear a roll of thunder from outside. Rarity cuts off her tail to help a depressed waterdragon who has lost half of his moustache. (She replaces the missing half with her tail). On one occasion Twilight Sparkle climbs on a soapbox before she exclaims her views on science and magic to Pinky Pie in a very preachy manner. Rainbow Dash makes fun of Twilight Sparkle for participating in a race. "What book have you read? An eggheads guide to running?" However Twilight´s stating number is 42. I found these parts to be very funny and clever and only the last example is a pure reference. But that might be just my kind of humour. E.g. I found it funny how you used Digimon (which I liked) as an example of how to do it right in comparison to My Little Pony. While Digimon has a very strong sense of right or wrong and the inner struggle of the characters to overcome their selfishness in order to do the right thing while My Little Pony puts its emphasis on diversity and the acceptance and importance of different approaches. So yeah the joke is here that you used Digimon as an example of a "right" approach while you set My Little Pony as an example of how to do it "wrong". Wow that was funny 
Oh and I liked the series you mentioned a lot and I am sure their creators won´t be insulted by the claim that My Little Pony is progressive in its depiction of femininity compared to a lot of western and japanese animation (especially compared to other girls cartoons like Bratz you mentioned). Hell it´s hard for me to understand how you drew this conclusion. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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You kind of missed the point. I already mentioned Digimon, which may market toys and figures or whatever, but have far better developed and deeper characters, an actual story, wonderful music, and overall amazing presentation. That was also for kids. Gundam is for the mecha otaku, but it's always a great depiction of war and other plotlines. Just because it's a marketing show doesn't mean it has to be bland and shoot for the bottom of the barrel 'moral of the day' plots with writers who treat it as anything more than a paycheck. Digimon's writers actually put effort into it; can't say the same for MLP or similar shows over here. One of the quotes the creator of MLP mentioned pretty much admitted the toy company funding the show forced her to make verything episodic and have no character development. Glad the 'committee' that made Digimon weren't like that.
All the characters fit the standard 'diverse group of girls who more than likely would never hang out together if this was real life' stereotype that the few girls shows we get follow. There's the smart one, the airhead, the tomboy, the rich/fashion-obsessed one, etc, all for the viewing girl audience to find one they relate to most and latch onto it. Very basic and old technique. From what I saw, they never really deviant too much from that unless the episode's plot specifically calls for it. One episode I saw involved a magic zebra and the ponies getting various status changing ailments. The one who is usually smart, despite being told that 'the flowers are bad, don't touch them, they do thing' interpretations it as 'the zebra cursed us' and jumped on the bandwagon with everyone else. It's classic Idiot Ball plot that a lot of cartoons uses these days to move the episode forward. There's no character development or depth here. I also saw an episode about them making dresses and they all hated the design their friend made. I had to turn it off during the second song because I just couldn't take it anymore. I'm guessing it goes down the standards 'friends lie about liking it as to not hurt friends feelings, it builds up til the truth has to come out, they do, everyone hugs and kisses, everyone's friends again' plotline we've seen in other kid's cartoons before.
My point is maybe it's good for Western cartoons, I'll take your word for it (I stopped following Western stuff back when I entered high school) but it's nothing compared to the stuff we get from Japan, and saying it handles females better than anime is just simply not true. Japan has plenty of shows starring females and plenty of females who create manga, novels, and anime. There's a legitimate industry and market in Japan for that, as opposed to here. An episodic kid's show like My Little Pony that follows all the conventions of children's programming and stereotypes is nothing compared to all those products and series. Unless you can clarify how it's better, I'm simply going to say it's not true at all. Looking at the side bar, I see a Soul Eater advertisement. Written by a man, but Maka's far more developed and a better character than anything I saw in MLP. |
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Hypeathon
Posts: 1176 |
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Not that it's gonna matter if I try saying anything because at this with what I see in anime fandom, fans have their own specifically unique opinion, they want to express it and they only wish to create an "echo chamber effect" of that opinion. So I could say a bunch of examples right now and yet I would basically hear different variations of, "but none of those are what I had in mind, so those examples suck." But that being, I'll say it anyway. What about Fa Mulan in Disney's Mulan, or Katara in Avatar (or even Korra in the upcoming sequel), or Eliza Thorberry in the Wild Thornberries, or the Powerpuff Girls, or Juniper Lee in The Life and Times of Juniper Lee, Jenny in I'm a Teenage Robot? This is just to name some examples and I'm not saying they throw any example of female protagonist in anime out of the park or that they are worse. My point is that you and maybe some other people out there make it seem as if creative minds of American animation have never thought of making more female protagonists with better attitudes before and never have and never will care about that sort of thing. |
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Maximym Meyham!!
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Ms. Brisby is one of the only female protagonists I know of in modern animation to be held in a mature and endearing light. The Secret of NIHM wasn't just a family feature with annoying songs and some unbearable test of sanity for parents, it told a bold and mature tale with likeable characters and a serious, yet warm theme. I know you don't mean any hard feelings, and I don't as well, but it's really disheartening to see that animation is seen as either "family friendly" romps or "extreme hardkore for mature audiences only" gore and bloodfests here in the US, and that animation isn't given the kind of writing and effort and talent seen in movies that is seen in likes of movies like The Terminator because of this stigma is getting my inner spirit boiling again with contempt. While I do know that Seinen titles over in Japan isn't that big, there's at least a market for adult themed animation. Over here, anything for adults must always be featured in live action with "realistic realism", because isn't fantasy for nerds that play them virtual reality death simulators?  .
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Never? No, they're just extremely rare, or their shows bomb horribly (Juniper Lee and Teenage Robot), or they're just in bad shows in general (Personally, I'd say all of those shows). Disney is kind of self explanation. They push their princesses a lot; and sadly that's pretty much all we'll get from them. Katara's not the main character, though, she's just the heroes' love interest,not sure why you listed her. Though still, that's like four shows in two decades? Very small number all things considered, where as it's fairly 1 for 1 in Japan.
I'm not sure if that counts since it's based on a book; especially since in the sequel not based off the book she becomes very.. well, the complete opposite. I do agree females seem more in the 'comedy lighthearted' role than the action or mature role here, though. I reckon that has to do with the whole 'violence against women' taboo; it's hard enough to have an action show do much violence in the first place, let alone against the females. |
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Hypeathon
Posts: 1176 |
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@ Titan XL:
*sigh* Yeah, but you know what know though? And I seen enough of your other posts in the forums to get the idea, you have a strong bias against American animation. And hey, there's nothing wrong with you disliking it, I've seen anough anime fans dislike American animation to get the idea. I expect at least one person to not even like Pixar and as far as I know, you happen to be that person. That's fine. But there's no point in arguing about female protagonist in animation not because of what you said. It's just that it's not gonna change your mind. Your have your opinions very ingrained, which again, I don't mind you having those opinion. But you're just expressing why you as an individual dislike American animation. Not only that, but your also kinda painting American animation with a really broad brush, the same way non-anime fans paint anime with a really broad brush how it's all big eyes, and perverted, and how pacing in storytelling is all slow and stuff. So I really don't buy that nonsense where it's just "pushing their princesses a lot" like all of the writers or directors or any other creative members in these studios are literally not thinking about what they're doing beyond marketing to young girls or whatever. I can understand why on the surface people would be quick to generalize that notion, but no sorry. And I put Katara there because she's a main protagonist, not the main protagonist(btw, there's no point in arguing with you about Avatar either since you also seem to be willing to criticize that show. But I'll just say this. It's you v.s at least 10 million people in America along with 105 countries that air Avatar, including Japan).
I feel this is getting a little off-topic, but I don't personally think that just because something is "family/kid friendly" that automatically means it's a bad thing, nor do I think some shows that are more profund in violence for just violence sake. I still think that's just overgeneralizing and being too biased against American animation. And coming from someone who's an animation major in an art college and learned that there is WAAAAY more to American animation than "pick your demographic" (which anime fans seem to like to do a LOT with even anime) it's beginning to bug the crap out of me that even anime fans say that. Though I do want to say that with writing seen in Hollywood films that's not seen in animation, that's kind of comparing apples to oranges at that point, I think. with a Hollywood film, I think it's easier to tell a story and its sequels in 90 minutes since it encourages the writers and director to be clear and to the point with the plot and who the characters are and what they want and what they have to conflict with. With television it's a bit different. There's the concern where if your story can even make it past the pilot or first season or even the next season and I guess the creators don't want to get too ahead of themselves with adding whatever subplot they may want to add just to risk having their showed suddenly cancelled for whatever reason. It's a little hard to explain, but I can't help but feel that writing for a TV series is just whole-sale more tricky than writing for a movie where you know what you want to apply in your story for your audience to watch and sit through in one sitting. Last edited by Hypeathon on Wed May 25, 2011 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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enurtsol
Posts: 14761 |
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Nah, Juniper Lee and Teenage Robot did fine enough, and they weren't bad shows at all.
Disney officially has a Princess line - that's why they do it, to keep up the brand. (Kinda like how KyoAni has sorta moe line. ) Without Princesses, there'd be no Magic Kingdom for girls (kinda like if Gainax ever gets to build their Otakuland theme brand for otaku).
See, the Princess line is for girls up to ~7 years old. Then, above that, there's the Disney teenage shows. That's the business plan for their brands to be there as their audience grows older. And it's been quite successful.
She's one of the main characters, not just the love interest.
That's because girls don't watch cartoons!
(They prefer live-action teenage shows.)
Like the old Barbie pull-string voice "Math is hard!" flap.
A.k.a. must not discourage girls' self-confidence in an already male-slanted society. America may be a bit going overboard, but gender equality is an area that Japan has been quite under-performing overall. |
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Hypeathon
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It doesn't even stop there. Girls like my 11 year-old sister will prefer any live-action family sitcom or widespread reality show like America's Got Talent, American Idol, Dancing with the Stars because of the fact reality is just much easier to relate to than fiction and thus less likely to weird people out. Plus they want to see an event of some sort with humor, competition, suspense and excitement wrapped into one and those shows have all of that. And it only adds viewers when anyone else and their friends get into it. |
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