Forum - View topicFate/Stay Night ending *SPOILER WARNING*
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Nagisa
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 Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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Personally, I think they should've just stretched the whole thing out another two episodes and then set aside an extra ten-ish minutes to develop each of the characters that got developmentally shafted. Show that Rider spoiler[is actually Sakura's Servant hijacked by Shinji and doesn't really like the bastard], cover Caster and Souichirou's backstory, cover Sakura and Rin's relationship, cover Lancer's whole honor code and maybe even some of his former Master spoiler[Bazette], show more of Archer as spoiler[the future Shirou and why he...really does not like past Shirou at all], show more of why Ilya an the Einzbern family are important to the Grail War beyond merely being Berserker's Master, show more of Rin's relationship with Shirou, etc. Actually explaining these things would've helped the show immensely, and they really didn't need to set aside that much time to do so. Just an extra 5-10 minutes per (most of which could've been taken out of the repetitive Shirou monologues), and then extending the show a couple episodes if they really needed to.
Souichirou was raised as part of an assassin's clan, yes. He's actually Caster's second Master, spoiler[as her former one was an abusive monster from the Mage's Society. She killed him, and her mana was about to run out when Souichirou found her and just...rescued her on a whim, more or less.] Hence the reason she loves him so deeply (nevermind the whole...spoiler[Medea] thing). As for Rin and Sakura, they're actually spoiler[biological siblings. Twins, even, I believe. But since a magician's family is only supposed to have one heir, bearing multiple children becomes a problem, so Sakura was adopted out to the Matou family (who'd become pretty much dead in the water magically, which is why Shinji is such a miserable excuse for a Master). Unfortunately, the Matou family saw Sakura as a ticket to regaining power, as she possessed an immense wealth of latent, untapped mana, and they performed all manner of horrible experiments on her to bring that out.] In the game's Heaven's Feel scenario, spoiler[these experiments, combined with a failed attempt by Shinji to rape her, results in the creation of a Black Sakura. She basically turns evil due to this mana worm thingy inside of her, and assumes the form of a shadow that then goes around consuming Servants (and, as is the case with Saber especially, spitting out evil versions of them to fight with). In this scenario, it's Rin's love for her sister (as well as one helluva fight by Rider and Shirou) that ultimately turns Sakura away from the "dark side."]
There is a Caster portion in Fate, but it's incredibly short. It's pretty much simply that spoiler[she appears and tries to start something with Shirou and Saber, but is then immediately taken out by Gilgamesh with a rain of swords. If I recall, the death scene used in the TV series is pulled from the Unlimited Blade Works scenario, and Caster's abduction of Sakura (and subsequent dressing her in bondage gear...  ) was entirely made up for the anime.]
The end of the series, if I recall correctly, is mostly accurate to the Fate scenario. Sir Bedivere included. |
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Malintex Terek
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It's an Anime, not a game. That's why, despite how much I bash FSN the Anime, my actual score for it is a 7.2/10: a bit above average. That's because I treated it as an Anime and not as the game source material. I saw Tsukihime before I knew about TYPE-MOON, and boy did I hate it! It was confusing and left a bunch of unexplained loose ends. However, my only improvement to Tsukihime would be: 1)clarifying Akiha's power 2)clarifying Kohaku/Hisui's roles 3)clarifying the ending with Arc. 4)clarifying Roa-Shiki's eyes That's all. In FSN, more material was introduced than could be accomodated faithfully, and in an arsinine manner to boot (Caster Arc). Several characters had their development retard or halt altogether, in some cases with a diamteric inversion (Rin, Ilya). Some vanished and occasionally appeared briefly (Sakura, Issei, Archer, Taiga). Actually, this would have been a good series (with the exception of the laughable production values) if the Caster Arc was edited out entirely, and those three valuable episodes were devoted to developing Ilya, downplaying Rin, and calling back Sakura, Taiga, and Issei back into the picture. Heck, but at least the plot was original, right? I sure did love "Dragonball Z with anachronisms, short skirts, deux ex, sudden GENUIS, purty colurs and two gender-confused leads." Sigh. Well, at least the fights were better than Tsukihime, right? Yes. They were so good, I got to see the same battle TWICE in different episodes.
Uh-huh. TYPE-MOON had involvement with the Anime, too. They produced it; typically, producers like to have a great deal of imput into what they fund. Further, the game clearly isn't available in America, so most people here couldn't support TM anyway. If one supports TYPE-MOON, order the game. I know I did. Have you reserved your copy?
Well, I certainly have no right to compare FSN to "most of the crap we've gotten in the past few years", as I only watch Anime that interest me, rather than every raw that appears on some torrent. And I should note Shakugan no Shana wasn't very good, either, but it was better than FSN and had numerous simmilarities (though there is some dissent among my concentric circles regarding this; some feel there are no simmilarities. Interesting). |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
 Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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Type-Moon produced the anime? ...since when? If anything, blame Studio DEEN, they actually produced the darn thing. Except they're doing a pretty good job with Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, so all is forgiven (then again, the F/SN anime was, although disappointing, still above average). I wonder though, why are they incorporating so many arcs into Higurashi while keeping each in minimal detail, while they focused so specifically on one particular arc in Fate/Stay Night while having neglected the others completely? |
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Nagisa
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Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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So, you're saying that as long as the adaptation is a different format (i.e. television, instead of another game), it can take whatever the hell liberties it wants to the point of being an unrecognizable mess with little to nothing in common with the source beyond the usage of characters' names? Because that's pretty much what Tsukihime was. Almost nobody was true to their actual personality, and unless your name was Arcueid or Shiki, you were effectively removed from the plot. As an adaptation, it was awful. As a series, it was just as awful for becoming a generic emo self-loathing festival with a bloated & useless cast and a lot of undeveloped story threads.
A: So, edit out Caster entirely? So you want to exclude the Servant, and create a situation like Tsukihime where a glaring, vitally important story thread is omitted entirely to the greater detriment of the story? How about, I dunno, preferring that it be re-written instead? B: Downplaying Rin? I'm sorry, downplaying one of the three most central protagonists to the story? Are you nuts? If anything, given her actual importance to the story, she was in dire need of a bit more development. C: Fuji-nee and Issei—Issei especially—are almost totally irrelevant to the story. Their greatest contribution to the actual plot was getting worked over by Caster in the Unlimited Blade Works scenario, beyond that Fuji-nee was merely comic relief and Issei...wasn't anything, really. Bringing them back into the story wouldn't have served anything.
This is laughable, especially coming from someone who prides themselves on their One Piece fandom, their adoration of a series that has far more blatant and tired parallels to shows like Dragon Ball Z and Naruto than Fate/stay night ever did. To blast Fate for such weak comparisons and then to and brag about your internet contributions toward a show that's several dozen times more guilty of those same comparisons? No, that's not hypocritical at all.
They did not produce it. They gave the "OK" to have Studio DEEN produce it, but they themselves did not have the power to do any such thing. They handed the television rights off to DEEN, gave the occasional creative nudge here and there, and that was it. Shouji Gatoh did not produce Full Metal Panic!, he simply created the original books which Gonzo and Kyoto adapted into anime. Kouhei Kadono did not produce Boogiepop Phantom, he merely wrote the books that Madhouse then created a prequel/sequel to (likely with Kadono's vague creative input, but little else). Type-Moon were the exact same as it concerned Shingetsutan Tsukihime and Fate/stay night.
The director working on Fate pretty much said he's got a boner for Saber, so for Saber's scenario to take precedence was pretty much a foregone conclusion. Adding to that, many fans suspect that the results of a character popularity poll that came out around the same time as the show's production—which Saber won by a massive margin—also held sway in just how much influence the game's various scenarios had. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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You can read up on all of the scenarios here, but I must throw out the obligatory SPOILER WARNING as a catch all for anyone who does click it. If you weren't dissappointed with the anime already you probabally will be after reading all the wasted possibillities. I still liked the anime adaptation a lot though.
Oh and I agree about the sountrack, it's quite good. I'm listening to it now actually. |
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Malintex Terek
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They should be members of "Fate Project", but since you brought things up I'm unsure. I wouldn't be surprised if Deen kicked them out of any imput, though; if such is the case, that only supports what I was saying about TYPE-MOON only using the Anime as a promotional vent for the game. So, I'll amend my earlier statement. "Screw Deen and Geneon! Don't buy into cheap Anime!"
[/quote] Higurashi's pretty faithful, from what I've heard, but the story died for me after the first arc, which was so unexpected and surprising I doubt anything could live up to it. People bash the animation, but I don't mind the low quality because Higurashi was a surprise show and wasn't hyped prior to its release with taglines like "The most anticipated Anime of 2006!" And, Studio Deen wanted to play with FSN's most popular character; Saber. Shirou's "taming" of her, combined with Saber's "moe factor" [/sleezy otaku terminology] make her very popular among Japanese players, whereas the much more poignant (and MUCH MORE bittersweet) Heaven's Feel arc features a very hated Sakura.
Yes, it's pretty evident that was a given, and I see no reason to think otherwise. Different mediums correspond to different interpretations of a story, if only at the most basic level because the means of presentation are different. I saw Chicago on Broadway. I saw Chicago the Movie. The experience is different so it's quite difficult to judge both interpretations on their own merits. As a contrast, subs v. dubs are in the same medium, just with a different spin and interpretation on the narration. To further elaborate, I feel that while some aspects of the game were exaggerated in the Anime for dramatic effect (episode twenty-one of FSN comes to mind), they were necessary (if insulting) actions.
Going on what I said earlier, I saw Tsukhime before I learned of the game's depth, so I will assert that it was indeed horrible, though it had surprisingly original bits that I found interesting, if not confusing. My beef was that virtually nothing happened! Shiki and Arc's relationship looked like it could have been condensed and yet still be interesting,; Nero, my favourite character in the TYPE-MOON universe, went out like a wuss, while that loser Roa just got poked by Ciel. I should note, though, that any eroge with multiple endings will likely land firmly in one route; it was inevitable that Arc-Shiki get the focus in Tsukihime, though I do wish the rest of the characters were expanded upon!
I would have preferred a re-write (different from what was done), but if that was an option it probably would have been taken. The clumsy dialogue in FSN was very annoying and a whole fudging great deal could have been explained with a bit more elaboration, but with Deen adamant on taking the Fate route, I think the underdevelopment of Rin, Kuzuki, and Caster, in addition to the personality inversion of Ilya were unforgivable and sloppy. Caster and Kuzuki were awesome enough to basically have a whole route dedicated to them as the central antagonists; shoving all that into three episodes was borederline sacrilegious, especially with the Gilgamesh appearence. But, the Caster Arc wasn't bad solely because of Caster! No, Deen tried to fit in a touch o' Heaven's Feel into it by making sweet Sakura look like a harlot, spouting orgasmic moans while her sister fondled her. Gods, that pissed me off the most; and what became of that past eighteen? NOTHING!
You misunderstand. Rin started off the series as a "competitive, responsible, attractive magus with an uneasiness to ally with another Master yet with compassionate heart for said Master"; basically, central-girl material. By the end of the series, she became voice for explanations, exhibiting "sudden genuis" and almost other-worldly perceptive abilities, with the "spark" she had in the beginning of the series gone. When Archer died, Rin, in a way, did too. I wouldn't have minded if there wasn't so much Rin development early in the series. So, even ONE EPISODE of Rin reflecting on her love for Shirou, and how she realizes Saber is growing closer to him, would have been enough to smoothen her background transition. My word choice in "downplay" was perhaps a bit poor.
Yeah, I suppose Taiga served her purpose early on with the Saber duel, which, though Saber's analysis, developed her character to my satisfaction. However, Issei vanished and reappeared suddenly to "coincidentally" talk to Shirou about Kuzuki. If he had just appeared in episode one and never again, I wouldn't have minded. But that...meh, raises questions.
My humour was wasted on you, clearly. 
FSN did indeed have a lot of cliche plot devices and battle sequences (Saber bored me after Rider), but devices become cliche because they are usually very good. Fate the game scenario did this, while Fate the Anime attempted but failed. I'm not sure how...Nasu's descriptions of stuff are much more impressive than what I saw on my computer, so maybe I'm just disappointed with the adaption. And, for an additional note, I pride myself on One Piece not soley because of its fights, but because it has a lot of heart. I think being able to point out one's favourite series' flaws and laugh at them is the trademark of a true fan. |
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HitokiriShadow
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I had heard spoiler[ that they were sisters, but I didn't know to what degree. But the anime doesn't even really give you enough to figure that out. It just gives you enough to know that they knew each other in their childhood.]
The bondage gear was a bit odd, but not entirely bad. I'm just curious why Caster would have bothered. Anyway, I'm glad they expanded the Caster stuff, I just wish they had done it better, because as it is, they would have been better off not including it at all.
So Illya lived in the Fate scenario of the game as well? Someone in another forum said something that led me to believe that she died in the game.
I fail to see your point. Yes, one of the other scenerios would have been more interesting and better, but thats not what most of us (me, at least) are complaining about. It still had a number of problems with it. Most of the fights were boring (the only good ones, in my opinion, were Saber vs. Caster and Archer vs. Berserker) largely because they were poorly animated with lots of barely animated images dragged across the screen with speed lines in the background. The introduced plot points (like the Sakura/Rin thing) without bothering to develop and explain them. Despite these, it still wasn't a bad series. Just disappointing. But reading your post, it seems like you are ripping into the series and then declaring it is good. I'm not even sure what you are arguing at this point.
Yes, the plot was pretty original. I'm failing to see any resemblance between Fate/Stay Night and DBZ beyond Saber's Kamehameha in episode 12 to finish off Rider. Fate/Stay Night had a great plot far beyond anything Akira Toriyama could ever hope to come up with.
The owned the rights for Fate/Stay Night and let Studio DEEN make an anime of it and said "Thanks for the cash." They had little, if any, involvement beyond that.
I'd love to order the game, and I would if I knew anywhere near enough Japanese to play it. Wait, what was your point again?
Interesting indeed. Not really. I watched the first two episodes of Shana and I really don't see ANY similarities between the two series. What is your point here?
Yes, we watch every raw that comes out.  I only watch series that interest me too, though I give things that look interesting a try. And I don't even watch raws. But the last few seasons (I don't know about "years") of anime didn't have much that was very good and Fate/Stay Night was certainly a lot better than most of it.
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