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NEWS: Satoshi Kon Book Adds Message by Black Swan's Aronofsky


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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:27 am Reply with quote
Irate Japanophile wrote:
I SAW THIS KINDA THING WELL MAYBE NOT EXACTLY THIS BUT SORTA THIS THING KINDA IN AN ANIME BEFORE I SAW IT IN THIS MOVIE EFF YOU HOLLYWOOD STEALIN FROM ANIME

Agreed. This is annoying.

But that's not my complaint and you know it.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:55 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
"Preferring anime" is different from being ludicrously partisan. People who treat anime like it's a political cause and are willing to trash an auteur like Aronofsky because of some perceived sleight are, in my opinion, only closing themselves off to how much great stuff there is out there.


I can honestly say there hasn't been a movie I found interesting in however many years, or at least seemed all that special. Like mentioned, for Inception I could watch Paprika, which uses animation for the dream sequences exceptionally and much better. Or Perfect Blue for Black Swan. For probably every Hollywood movie, you can find quite a few anime or manga that have done it before. When you have hundreds of series and moves come out each year, everything else does seem fairly obsolete because you can find it in anime just as easy; and it's animated or drawn, allowing for more flexible portrayals of things, and not limited by the medium of live-action (because America refuses to use animation for those sorts of things), and you don't have to put up with the Hollywood mentality a lot of films are subjected to during creation.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 750
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:29 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Zac wrote:
"Preferring anime" is different from being ludicrously partisan. People who treat anime like it's a political cause and are willing to trash an auteur like Aronofsky because of some perceived sleight are, in my opinion, only closing themselves off to how much great stuff there is out there.


I can honestly say there hasn't been a movie I found interesting in however many years, or at least seemed all that special. Like mentioned, for Inception I could watch Paprika, which uses animation for the dream sequences exceptionally and much better. Or Perfect Blue for Black Swan. For probably every Hollywood movie, you can find quite a few anime or manga that have done it before. When you have hundreds of series and moves come out each year, everything else does seem fairly obsolete because you can find it in anime just as easy; and it's animated or drawn, allowing for more flexible portrayals of things, and not limited by the medium of live-action (because America refuses to use animation for those sorts of things), and you don't have to put up with the Hollywood mentality a lot of films are subjected to during creation.


You must not have watched many movies over the past few years, because there have been some really great ones that have NOTHING to do with an "anime inspiration" ... what about The Social Network? The King's Speech? I can't really find any "anime inspiration" in either of those films, and those were clearly the two greatest films of 2010.

Have you actually SEEN Black Swan or Inception? They are brilliant pieces of art/entertainment.

Also, anime doesn't really have a lot of strength in certain areas - like plots involving sports or the law.

I'm a huge anime nut, but I think you're really missing out on some great entertainment by discarding all American made television / movies.
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Polly E.



Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:42 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:

I'm a huge anime nut, but I think you're really missing out on some great entertainment by discarding all American made television / movies.

Reasoning with the unreasonable. You'd have better luck convincing a brick wall, honestly.
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AnimenexuS



Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 238
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:22 pm Reply with quote
There nothing I want see this year anyway . Maybe Hobo with a shot. And Darren Aronofsky is good Director. I just Pi on Netflix Queue
Because it sound might good. I will want get .
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:30 pm Reply with quote
jenethen:
Quote:
Also, anime doesn't really have a lot of strength in certain areas - like plots involving sports or the law.


Huh? Who just died a month ago, and was known for two iconic sports anime again? As for law, well, there isn't a Phoenix Wright anime yet. But I guess you could count Detective Conan.

Zac: Well, the issue is that Darren's success is due to Kon's movie. He could've made it on his own, as he did with The Wrestler, but he's gotten six Oscar noms, and one win, with the help of PB. And he's reaped millions of bucks Swan which would greatly help Dream Machine get the marketing and distribution it would normally be deprived of in Japan and the U.S. So intentionally omitting Kon from Portman's acceptance speech was a slap in the face to a fellow "auteur". And it's not like Portman wouldn't have been able to fit Kon in, given that she owes both of them big time-especially when she'll only be remembered for crap like Your Highness-and prior crap like the Star Wars prequels-in a few years. Still, if this is the real deal, and not a third-party cash-in like that effing Euro magazine "interview" with Nolan, then I will say "better late than never", and make the appropriate apologies. Though I'm wondering if it's really him not just being pressured into including his tribute. Still, that's fine by me, too. Just 'cus he's got personal problems doesn't mean he couldn't have done something for Japan, given how well his visit there ten years ago paid off now.

As for Paprika and Inception, I really hate bringing this up again, but I talked to Nolan in person, and he said he didn't see it, but was interested when I brought up the fact that Kon name-dropped TDK before he died. Guillermo Del Toro was moderating the Q+A, and called Kon "great", so I trust Nolan to at least be honest with me on that. However, based on how he described the writing process, I imagine it's Chris's bro John who's the anime geek in the family, 'cus he comes up with the "out there" stuff, while Chris comes up with the logical stuff.


Last edited by GATSU on Sat May 28, 2011 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:25 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
So intentionally omitting Kon from Portman's acceptance speech was a slap in the face to a fellow "auteur". And it's not like Portman wouldn't have been able to fit Kon in, given that she owes both of them big time-especially when she'll only be remembered for crap like Your Highness-and prior crap like the Star Wars prequels-in a few years


Ok, this whole thread is a thread of stupidity, but THIS here... WTF. What in the world does Natalie Portman have to do with thanking Satoshi Kon, and I'm sorry to inform you this but Portman is a well known actress for plenty of other films outside of Star Wars, and winning an Academy Award has only cemented her name into movie history. Only Nerds remember she was in those crap prequel films. Natalie Portman owes Satoshi Kon nothing. She was hired to act out a script someone else wrote - not Satoshi Kon. Her performance had nothing to do with Perfect Blue, and her performance was fantastic. For all we know she doesn't even know he exists.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 14526
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:00 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf:
Quote:
What in the world does Natalie Portman have to do with thanking Satoshi Kon,


Well, his movie (not to mention Sarah Lane's dance moves Rolling Eyes ) helped her, too.

Quote:
and I'm sorry to inform you this but Portman is a well known actress for plenty of other films outside of Star Wars,


But none of them got her an Oscar win. And Star Wars is the only reason she got most of those other movies. She'd probably be a nobody like Kunis until Star Wars.

Quote:
and winning an Academy Award has only cemented her name into movie history.


Yeah, she'll be remembered as some really mediocre actress whose only reason for success is she aped scenes from an anime and "dance-synched" Lane.

Quote:
Natalie Portman owes Satoshi Kon nothing.


Considering people only took her seriously after Swan, she owes him everything. Yeah, she'll always have The Professional, Closer, and Garden State, but she wasn't the lead in those films.

Quote:
She was hired to act out a script someone else wrote - not Satoshi Kon.


She was hired to act out a script someone else wrote based on one of Satoshi Kon's movies. If Scorcese can acknowledge Andrew Lau's Infernal Affairs when he finally won Best Director, even though, unlike Portman, Scorcese has a legacy which eclipses Lau's, then Portman can do the same for Kon.

Quote:
Her performance had nothing to do with Perfect Blue, and her performance was fantastic.


Sure it didn't.

Quote:
For all we know she doesn't even know he exists.


Yeah, but Darren certainly does, hence why he should've done the right thing, and asked her to name-drop Kon.


Last edited by GATSU on Sat May 28, 2011 5:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Zac
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Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:20 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:

Zac: Well, the issue is that Darren's success is due to Kon's movie.


I've seen Black Swan about four times or so and Perfect Blue about a dozen times.

While there are a couple of minor surface similarities in some momentary imagery - notably the "girl looks in mirror, reflection shows subconscious" thing that was done before Perfect Blue about a million times beforehand in other films - I never once thought that Black Swan was directly inspired by nor really shared anything in common with Perfect Blue. They have completely different messages, themes, characters, and settings.

So here's my challenge, because I'm really sick of hearing about this.

If you're so convinced that Aronofsky owes the success of Black Swan to Satoshi Kon and you're so convinced that the film was lifted wholesale from the structure and story of Perfect Blue, I want you to prove it.

Give me a list of things - solid, real things, like scene compositions, plot points and character motivations - that the two share in common. Go as long as you want. Tell me why Black Swan is such an egregious ripoff of Perfect Blue and why Aronofsky owes the success of that film to Satoshi Kon.

Prove it to me. Give me a well-reasoned, specific argument, and remember you are talking to someone who is extremely familiar with and a big fan of both films. I'm not interested in vague, specious "maybe-he-kinda-took-this-from-an-anime" bullsh*t that proves your interest in film is so limited that you've never seen those ideas ever before in another film.

Do that for me. Or do me a favor and shut the f*ck up about it because you don't know what you're talking about.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:01 am Reply with quote
Zac: Let's start with the most obvious one first: The female protagonists have similar names. Next, they both have the bathtub scene was also in used in Requiem, which was also confirmed by Kon's own blog as being the scene Darren visited him in Japan for, specifically to pay off whoever he had to pay off for the remake rights. [We can only hope Kon got a cut, even if it was a measly 60 grand. But, given that was his debut, he probably didn't have much pull at Madhouse/Klockworx at the time, and may have very well been screwed out of ownership rights and residuals from some a-hole middle-man.] Moving on, both films have:
1) A performer who gets injured whom the protagonist vists in the hospital;
2) An over-bearing stage-mom;
3) A sleazy producer;
4) A scene where a zealous dancer winds up accidentally stabbing herself in the chest by mistake;
5) A performer who sees her doppelganger reflected in mirrors on the subway. [I know Keonyn and Darren claim that part's from Dostoevsky, but clearly not the modernized version.]
6) Guys who try to paw the protagonist in a dingy bar. [Also "borrowed" for Requiem.]
7) A female lead who has to decide between keeping her career clean or taking the "easy" way out to get more recognition;
8) A has-been performer. (Although not the stage-mom, like in PB. BFD, though.)
9) Talking wallpaper;
10) Swan even uses the same f***ing phrase "perfect";
11) They both check their e-mails [I know, that's stretching it, 'cus that's in every movie nowadays. But you wanted examples, so...];
12) They both have a doppelganger who intentionally makes the main character look and sound bad to sabotage her and confuse her into believing she's doing it herself. [Once again, Keonyn will say that's from The Double, but I'll just reply again that that's still not the modernized version of it.]
13) They both have the main character preparing back-stage for her debut.
14) They both have the climax of the film take place on stage.
15) They both have the protagonists falling and floating in the air, although within slightly different contexts.
16) They both have broken glass.
17) Nina and Mima both play "characters" who pine for some guy. Want more? 8-)


Last edited by GATSU on Sat May 28, 2011 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Migsse



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
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Location: Johannesburg
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:15 am Reply with quote
@Gatsu, how about turning your block of text into something easier to read? I bet Zac is simply saying too-long-and-unformated-did-not-read.

Like putting your numbered points on separate lines, for instance...
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~~EpiC~~



Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 243
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:41 am Reply with quote
Quote:
GATSU
Want more? Cool


Yes, I want more, if you actually have anymore, before I make my response to it all.


I do agree with Zac and the others. I am sick of this "anime is superior" attitude and obvious Japonophile nonsense. Especially when its clear this scrubs aren't even into cinema, and consistently refuse to realize just how much stuff is copped from Hollywood.

Japan continuously releases terrible movies all the time and consistently releases terrible anime. This Hollywood bashing is too much. As someone who has consistently bashed the 'current state of film' over the last few years, I must say that last year was a fairly decent year for Hollywood movies. And, I'm sorry, but I do agree that both Black Swan and Inception were better movies than Paprika.
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androvsky



Joined: 22 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:52 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:

3) A sleazy producer;
13) They both have the main character preparing back-stage for her debut
14) They both have the climax of the film take place on stage.
15) They both have the protagonists falling and floating in the air, although within slightly different contexts.
16) They both have broken glass.
17) Nina and Mima both play "characters" who pine for some guy. Want more? Cool

Okay, I haven't been keeping up with movies at all lately, so I don't want to jump in, but... is it even possible to write a movie about a stage actress without having those elements? Especially the first 3 and the last one.
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Migsse



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:07 am Reply with quote
So, heres what I have found that shoots down what Gatsu has listed...

Quote:
1) A performer who gets injured whom the protagonist vists in the hospital;

*Ahem* The Fall

Quote:
2) An over-bearing stage-mom;

Stage Mother, which predates Black Swan AND Perfect Blue.

Quote:
3) A sleazy producer;

The Producers?

Quote:
4) A scene where a zealous dancer winds up accidentally stabbing herself in the chest by mistake;

Since you included one that is a serious stretch, here is one of my own

Quote:
5) A performer who sees her doppelganger reflected in mirrors on the subway. [I know Keonyn and Darren claim that part's from Dostoevsky, but clearly not the modernized version.]

Now we are getting somewhere! You got me stumped on this one, my film knowledge fails me to find any example of any other film or series that has this happening to any character.

Quote:
6) Guys who try to paw the protagonist in a dingy bar. [Also "borrowed" for Requiem.]

Ever watched Coyote Ugly?

Quote:
7) An female lead who has to decide between keeping her career clean or taking the "easy" way out to get more recognition;

Have you even listened to Pink's Don't Let Me Get Me?
Because clearly you have not watched The Devil Wears Prada

Quote:
8) A has-been performer. (Although not the stage-mom, like in PB. BFD, though.)

I have 2 examples for you, a film Strictly Ballroom and an anime Chance Pop Session

Quote:
9) Talking wallpaper;

I don't remember this in either film. Give some proof dammit!

Quote:
10) Swan even uses the same f***ing phrase "perfect";

Are you shitting us? Seriously? There are countless films that have characters that say "Perfect" on its own.

Quote:
11) They both check their e-mails [I know, that's stretching it, 'cus that's in every movie nowadays. But you wanted examples, so...];

I'll call your bluff and throw in You've Got Mail

Quote:
12) They both have a doppelganger who intentionally makes the main character look and sound bad to sabotage her and confuse her into believing she's doing it herself. [Once again, Keonyn will
say that's from The Double, but I'll just reply again that that's still not the modernized version of it.]

I am stumped. Score another point for yourself.

Quote:
13) They both have the main character preparing back-stage for her debut.

Dreamgirls and so many other countless films about musicians. I am not going to bother listing them all.

Quote:
14) They both have the climax of the film take place on stage.

Step Up, anyone? Do they owe credit to Kon too?

Quote:
15) They both have the protagonists falling and floating in the air, although within slightly different contexts.

The keyword here is slightly different contexts. Jeez man, get some better comparisions to back up your shit!
It even happens in Hook!

Quote:
16) They both have broken glass.

Um, Die Hard?

Quote:
17) Nina and Mima both play "characters" who pine for some guy.

Holy Crap, really? Really? That is a genre in itself called Love Triangles.
But, if you want an example, try Four Weddings and a Funeral

Quote:
Want more? Cool

With proof, since 16 out of the 17 you listed (maybe 15 out of 17 if you can proof the 'Talking Wallpaper') were completly out there and can happen in ANY film/series - be it live action or animated.


Last edited by Migsse on Sat May 28, 2011 9:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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Migsse



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:17 am Reply with quote
Now, Gatsu, read and LEARN. This is what Zac is actually looking for in terms of 'give proof, state your case'.

Borders Line: Is BLACK SWAN The PERFECT BLUE Remake We’ve Been Waiting For?
By Meredith Borders



When I first saw the trailer for Black Swan, I geeked HARD. Mostly because I love Aronofsky and Swan Lake and pretty brunette actresses and psychosexual thrillers and every single movie ever made about dancing, but also because I had hopes that the film could deliver something that I’ve always thought needs to exist: a live action version of the 1998 Japanese anime Perfect Blue. (I’ve seen this movie, and it doesn’t count, trust.) The film was originally intended to be live-action until budget concerns precluded it. Then, the following year, Darren Aronofsky bought the rights to Perfect Blue for just $59,000 in order to replicate the gorgeous bathtub sequence for his 2000 film Requiem for a Dream.



Perfect Blue is a chilling psycho-thriller about Mima, a young (pop) star who embraces the darkness within her in order to achieve her dream (becoming an actress), willing to alienate everyone who cares about her to do so. Mima has an overbearing but loving maternal figure (her manager, Rumi) who doesn’t approve of her new shady career choices. She is emotionally tormented by an unknown outsider who begins to destroy Mima’s already tenuous grasp on reality, and Mima is soon haunted by a doppelganger who represents both her mental anguish and the duality of her soul.



And, you know, Black Swan is a chilling psycho-thriller about Nina, a young (ballet) star who embraces the darkness within her in order to achieve her dream (becoming the lead player in Swan Lake). She alienates, she’s got an overbearing but loving mom who disapproves, emotional torment, tenuous grasp on reality, and a doppelganger who represents both her mental anguish and the duality of her soul. Check, check and check.



This isn’t really a debate of whether Perfect Blue is a direct inspiration for Black Swan; Aronofsky has already categorically denied that claim, and who am I to argue? He acknowledges, however, that there are many similarities, and not just in the plot. Several times in Black Swan, Nina rests her head against the window on the subway and is shocked to find her doppelganger staring back at her, as happens to Mima constantly throughout Perfect Blue. Reflections indeed play a big part in the visual vocabulary of both films, as do shadows, photographs and paintings of Nina and Mima, all manipulated and skewed to represent the characters’ tumultuous identities.






My point is that, now that we have Black Swan, we no longer need a live action remake of Perfect Blue. Aronofsky, as steward of the rights and the talent, would be the man to do it, and in Black Swan he takes the best parts of Perfect Blue and turns them into something more. By changing the star’s profession from a pop idol/actress into a prima ballerina, Aronofsky adds legitimacy and severity to the story. Mima labors for acceptance by agreeing to participate in aggressively sexual scenes and fully nude photo shoots. Nina’s struggle for acclaim is more pervasive, affecting every aspect of her life. She starves herself, induces vomiting, self-mutilates, and submits fully to the advances of her controlling director. While Perfect Blue is plenty thrilling, Black Swan is harrowing. Merciless, even! And of course the ultimate achievement of Black Swan is Natalie Portman’s transcendent performance. We simply watch as Mima descends into her nightmare; the audience fully shares in Nina’s terror. Tchaikovsky’s score, adapted by Clint Mansell, makes a devastating accompaniment to the drama onscreen in Black Swan. Unfortunately the funky stylings of CHAM!, Mima’s J-pop group, don’t really compare–awesome as they are.

After spending the past decade or so advocating for a live-action remake of Perfect Blue , it feels super strange to be all, “No thanks! You can keep it!” now. But Aronofsky improves upon everything I love about the anime with such spectacular histrionics, it’s hard to imagine how another film could satisfy. That said, if you haven’t seen Perfect Blue, you simply must!

Source


Last edited by Migsse on Sat May 28, 2011 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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