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NEWS: Satoshi Kon Book Adds Message by Black Swan's Aronofsky


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Migsse



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 14
Location: Johannesburg
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:22 am Reply with quote
And the final nail in the coffin, Perfect Blue the Live Action version has the majority of the 'similarities' that Gatzu has pointed out.

Seriously, people. Google. Use it. That is its intended purpose.
This includes you, Zac.
And especially Gatzu.

Now, if you excuse me, I have a bowl of Wun Tun Soup and Durarara! waiting for me...
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:35 am Reply with quote
Migsse wrote:
Quote:
5) A performer who sees her doppelganger reflected in mirrors on the subway. [I know Keonyn and Darren claim that part's from Dostoevsky, but clearly not the modernized version.]

Now we are getting somewhere! You got me stumped on this one, my film knowledge fails me to find any example of any other film or series that has this happening to any character.

Quote:
12) They both have a doppelganger who intentionally makes the main character look and sound bad to sabotage her and confuse her into believing she's doing it herself. [Once again, Keonyn will
say that's from The Double, but I'll just reply again that that's still not the modernized version of it.]

I am stumped. Score another point for yourself.


Mirror doppelgangers have been used before, or just in general having your mirror self talk to you or represent some messed up psychological self. The movie Mirrors had a lot of that (that movie was a remake of a Korean film), The movie The Broken, Donnie Darko played with it a little bit, and most similar to Black Swan is the 1946 noir film The Dark Mirror, about two twins who are suspected of murder, one is good, one is bad, and they talk to the reflections of each other in the bathroom mirror. Those are just a couple I came up with in five minutes, and I have not seen every movie there is to see. Guess how many more doppelganger movies involving mirrors there have to be outside of that.


And while we're on it - all these backstage bits, and the whole ballet thing in general - totally ripping off Billy Elliot! It even starts and ends with him in a swan outfit!
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Migsse



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
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Location: Johannesburg
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:39 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:

Mirror doppelgangers have been used before, or just in general having your mirror self talk to you or represent some messed up psychological self. The movie Mirrors had a lot of that (that movie was a remake of a Korean film), The movie The Broken, Donnie Darko played with it a little bit, and most similar to Black Swan is the 1946 noir film The Dark Mirror, about two twins who are suspected of murder, one is good, one is bad, and they talk to the reflections of each other in the bathroom mirror. Those are just a couple I came up with in five minutes, and I have not seen every movie there is to see. Guess how many more doppelganger movies involving mirrors there have to be outside of that.


And while we're on it - all these backstage bits, and the whole ballet thing in general - totally ripping off Billy Elliot! It even starts and ends with him in a swan outfit!


littlegreenwolf, yes, but I don't recall any film that has exactly what Gatsu is mentioning - which is A performer who sees her doppelganger reflected in mirrors on the subway.

I totally forgot about Billy Elliot! Damn...

Thanks for the other films you have listed, I'll search around for them to have a look.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:58 am Reply with quote
Migsse wrote:


Seriously, people. Google. Use it. That is its intended purpose.
This includes you, Zac.
And especially Gatzu.


I've read that Badass Digest article before. It remains the only decent piece of writing on the subject I've ever seen.
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:52 pm Reply with quote
I wasn't serious about the Billy Elliot thing. Just posted it to show an example of how just about EVERY film that takes a look at the life of any sort of dancer or performer always shows backstage scenes. Nothing original about that.

Just like all these bits about performers or artists going nuts under pressure. It happens a lot in cinema and books.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 2:11 am Reply with quote
For the sake of my sanity, I wasn't going to get involved in another GATSU-fest. However, I think there's an important point that is getting missed here and I want to mention it.

Here's the thing GATSU, I'll acknowledge that a couple of your points are valid. Even though 80-90% of your list is just extremely general stuff that you'd find in any movie about performers, I will acknowledge that there are indeed things in there that may certainly have been inspired by Perfect Blue. I mean hey, that makes sense. Obviously Aronofsky is a fan of Perfect Blue. So yeah, chances are that it did inspire certain parts of Black Swan. I don't think anyone intends to, nor needs to refute that.

Here's where you go off the rails though: You jump from that to "Well, the issue is that Darren's success is due to Kon's movie."

No. That is just ridiculous. Black Swan was successful because Aronofsky put together a great movie. If somebody who didn't know how to put together a great movie had made it, it wouldn't have been a success. It wouldn't have mattered if they threw in a few scenes or images inspired by Perfect Blue. You're drastically oversimplifying what goes into making a good movie. For whatever aspect that may be Perfect Blue inspired in Black Swan, there are twenty that aren't. Hence, while Kon may have had an impact on Black Swan, it's a fraction of Aronofsky's impact. So no, saying "his success is due to Kon's movie" is just wrong.
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 12:17 pm Reply with quote
People are still having this argument?

Even assuming for the sake of argument that Black Swan did borrow elements from Perfect Blue, so what? Black Swan is so amazing due to its fusion of classical music and ballet with psychological horror. Even if the latter was "stolen" from Perfect Blue, the addition of the former is a wholly unique element.

I think this reductionist attitude I see frequently where works of fiction are reduced to a bullet point list of stylistic elements, never mind how the whole thing fits together. It also crops up in fanboys demanding that the next entry in a long running franchise absolutely must have element X, Y and Z or it's not a "real" entry into the series.
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maaya



Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Penguin_Factory wrote:
Black Swan is so amazing due to its fusion of classical music and ballet with psychological horror.


I wonder if Princess Tutu can qualify as psychological horror Very Happy (seriously, especially considering that it's supposed to be a children's show, I can picture the viewers having nightmares with Drosselmeyer)
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:03 pm Reply with quote
greenwolf: Yes, but they're physically twins, not hallucinations.

Migsse: Perfect Blue live-action is from the same book as the anime. Kon told me had nothing to do with it, though.

ikillchicken:
Quote:
No. That is just ridiculous. Black Swan was successful because Aronofsky put together a great movie.


We'll just see about that when his next movie bombs. Cool

But even if you're correct, he admitted that he couldn't get funding for it, even with Portman attached to the project. So Swan was a risk which paid off very well for him. And if it failed, he'd be a has-been like Richard Kelly. But since Swan was a success based off of elements not considered appealing to general audiences, that means that Perfect Blue's contributions to the film count that much more-especially since Darren got the mainstream acclaim in Hollywood which was long denied Kon.

Penguin: Sorry, but the dancing was fake, too.

maaya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAYIYt0EeYs Wink

Key: If they want to talk to me, I should be allowed to respond.


Last edited by GATSU on Tue May 31, 2011 1:20 am; edited 6 times in total
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:14 pm Reply with quote
Sorry, guys n' gals. I have been denying most of GATSU's attempts to post about his ongoing obsession with what BS owes to Kon because I know almost everyone except him is sick of it, but apparently a couple slipped through over the weekend while I was otherwise occupied. Rest assured that no more on the subject will creep into this or any other thread while I'm doing the filtering.

And to GATSU: I've asked and told you before to drop this, so this filtering will continue for as long as you keep up that argument.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 2:39 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
But since Swan was a success based off of elements not considered appealing to general audiences, that means that Perfect Blue's contributions to the film count that much more


I don't follow your reasoning here at all. Your conclusion seems like a complete non sequitur to me.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:56 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken: My point is, since PB influenced Swan, it contributed to Swan's success, since part of what people liked about Swan had some basis in PB.

[EDIT: Even though it falls under my ban, I'm allowing this one because it's a direct response to a question posed by another. If the rest of you don't want to hear anymore about this then you're going to have to stop responding to him. - Key]
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ikillchicken



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:48 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
ikillchicken: My point is, since PB influenced Swan, it contributed to Swan's success, since part of what people liked about Swan had some basis in PB.


Okay, and I'll agree that's probably true to a degree. But again, we arrive at the same issue I originally mentioned: I'll agree that certain parts of Swan may have been inspired by PB. I'll even agree that you could say from that that PB contributed in part to Swan's success. (Assuming at least that we ground that with the understanding that a lot of movies contributed to it's success, as is the case with any movie). But what you're doing is leaping from that fairly reasonable conclusion to this idea you've put forth that "Darren's success is due to Kon's movie" which in turn spawns this attitude of yours that Aronfosky should be getting down on his knees and thanking Kon.

That is where your reasoning fails. Just borrowing those certain elements you've mentioned from PB is not sufficient for success. Nor were borrowing those few elements a necessary condition for success. Even if you strip out a couple of those similar scenes, Swan would still be an excellent film. So again, while borrowing them helped a bit it was minor next to Aronofsky's own impact. I just don't see how you can deny that when there are so many things about the movie that are different from PB. I mean, if you even just wanted to say that you thought Kon deserves a nod for what he did contribution then I could understand that (even if I might not entirely agree with it). But acting like PB is the reason for Swan's success and insisting that pretty much anyone involved should be giving Kon all the credit at every opportunity is just nuts. It just doesn't follow from the similarities you've pointed out.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:44 pm Reply with quote
Ok, so it looks like Kon's site confirmed that book as being the real deal. Now, the only part I gotta make sure is if it's actually a blurb from Darren, or they're just using his name to sell more copies. I'm pretty sure, at this point, that it's the former, but you never know. I already got in enough trouble over the Nolan thing, even though nothing ironically happened to me.

chicken:
Quote:
That is where your reasoning fails. Just borrowing those certain elements you've mentioned from PB is not sufficient for success. Nor were borrowing those few elements a necessary condition for success. Even if you strip out a couple of those similar scenes, Swan would still be an excellent film. So again, while borrowing them helped a bit it was minor next to Aronofsky's own impact. I just don't see how you can deny that when there are so many things about the movie that are different from PB. I mean, if you even just wanted to say that you thought Kon deserves a nod for what he did contribution then I could understand that (even if I might not entirely agree with it). But acting like PB is the reason for Swan's success and insisting that pretty much anyone involved should be giving Kon all the credit at every opportunity is just nuts. It just doesn't follow from the similarities you've pointed out.


True, but those elements were integral to the film's success, and people associated the film with those elements. You can't deny that.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:06 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
You can't deny that.


I believe I just did.

If you think it's so undeniable that those scenes were integral to Black Swan, that it needed those scenes to be successful, that without those scenes Black Swan just would not have been anywhere near the same movie, then explain why. It should be easy if it's so obvious should it not?

See, I think this is precisely why I think you come to these silly conclusions all the time. The moment you see any movie with a few elements (even potentially) taken from an anime you immediately jump to the conclusion that it is an intergral part of the movie not for any logical reason, but rather simply because you take it as self evident that this is the case.
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