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NEWS: Barefoot Gen Artist to Pen Drenched by Black Rain Film




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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 5:52 pm Reply with quote
He looks surprisingly healthy considering...

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'However 62 years have passed since the end of the war, there has been not a single word of apology from the U.S.


Maybe if people like Abe didn't downplay what you guys did, we'd be willing to acknowledge the damage we did.
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Invader_Spooch



Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:31 am Reply with quote
I don't see how refusing to own up to our own negative acts until they do so first is very honorable.

It sort of would actually lessen the sincerity of an apology (of any sorts) if we waited for them to "apologize first".

And besides, I don't think anyone expects an actual apology perse, but just an air of remorse for the lives lost (on both sides) would do more for everyone than any formal statements. I think my main issue with the people who adamantly defend the bombings is that it's usually defended with such a bitter, hateful and vengeful tone.

It's one thing to say "hey, extenuating circumstances led to it, though it's horrible that it happened either way", it's another to reply "go sod off, you deserved it".
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:04 pm Reply with quote
I agree, Invader_Spooch. Well put.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:05 pm Reply with quote
Invader:
Quote:
I don't see how refusing to own up to our own negative acts until they do so first is very honorable.


It's not about honor, but responsibility. There is no honor in war. The Japanese had to find that out the hard way, but are still pretending they were the victims.

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I think my main issue with the people who adamantly defend the bombings is that it's usually defended with such a bitter, hateful and vengeful tone.


If your female relatives were sold as prostitutes, and people experimented on you, would you be happy about it?
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Invader_Spooch



Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:54 am Reply with quote
War is not honorable, duh (sort of an understood truth), but our behavior in regards to justifying and glorifying our wartime acts after the fact is another thing entirely.

Besides, you act as if the Japanese public was entirely behind what their government was up to. Many did not support the war or their role in it, yet they had no voice in the matter, and still paid the ultimate price.

On top of that, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from the Pearl Harbor attacks.

Pearl Harbor, while also tragic, was at least a military base, populated mainly by people in service (well aware of the risk) and held a great strategic position. The bombings of Japan took MANY innocent civilians lives, who had no threat to us, nor any say into the goings on of their government at large.

And your last comment was just an emotional red herring, which didn't even make any sense, since that same logic applies for why people like Keiji Nakazawa are still so upset about what happened.

It killed his family, destroyed his childhood, and changed him forever. It still haunts many to this day, and nobody is taking any accountability for it, just saying "they shouldn't have been Japanese, they're government brought this on themselves".

I think that if this was the other way around, and we were the ones who lost innocent civilian lives (ie 9/11), you'd be singing a much different tune, seeing as your argument is very similar to the ones jihadists use for why we deserved to be attacked.

The government does not always represent the will/intent of the people, and we should all keep that in mind.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:39 am Reply with quote
Invader:
Quote:
but our behavior in regards to justifying and glorifying our wartime acts after the fact is another thing entirely.


History is written by the winners. Of course, after Iraq, we no longer fall under that category.

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Besides, you act as if the Japanese public was entirely behind what their government was up to.


They supported the infrastructure which led to what happened in Manchuria and SE Asia.

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Many did not support the war or their role in it, yet they had no voice in the matter, and still paid the ultimate price.


The Japanese lived under the thumb of one emperor and a few generals. They could have easily overthrown the leaders as they had in previous civil wars.

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On top of that, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from the Pearl Harbor attacks.


Perhaps, but the results of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't significantly different from those at Unit 731.

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Pearl Harbor, while also tragic, was at least a military base, populated mainly by people in service (well aware of the risk) and held a great strategic position.


They might have been aware of the risk, and-if you believe certain conspiracy theories-FDR might have been aware of the risk, but they were attacked, in spite of the U.S. being neutral.

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The bombings of Japan took MANY innocent civilians lives,


The Japanese didn't seem to think massive bombings of civilians were so bad when the Nazis were doing it.

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And your last comment was just an emotional red herring,


When people use literary phrases to deconstruct my comments, it usually means they can't win, so they hope to undermine the legitimacy of my argument instead. My statement is perfectly valid. The few remaining survivors of Japan's war crimes are physically and emotionally crippled. Why is it wrong, in your eyes, for them to not feel remorse for what happened to Japan?

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since that same logic applies for why people like Keiji Nakazawa are still so upset about what happened.


His country started the war which destroyed his family. He's just shifting blame on us, because it's convenient.

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and nobody is taking any accountability for it, just saying "they shouldn't have been Japanese, they're government brought this on themselves"


And the Japanese claimed the Koreans and Chinese were at fault for having their own countries raped and pillaged.

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I think that if this was the other way around, and we were the ones who lost innocent civilian lives (ie 9/11), you'd be singing a much different tune,


9/11 happened, because our President is an idiot who chose not to listen to the warnings of possible attacks from his predecessor, because the latter was a Democrat, and because the former wanted an excuse to invade Iraq.

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seeing as your argument is very similar to the ones jihadists use for why we deserved to be attacked.


We didn't "deserve" to be attacked, but our oil-dependant policies made that inevitable.

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The government does not always represent the will/intent of the people,


But if the people refuse to say or act otherwise, that means they acknowledge the legitimacy of the government.
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Invader_Spooch



Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 96
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:38 am Reply with quote
One emperor and a few generals+tons of military personel obligated to enforce said rulers policies / a strong split between the public as to whether to support the government's actions or rebel = quite a tough time in forming a legitimate and strong resistence.

Not to say it couldn't be done, but you're making some strong generalizations in your "points". Not all the Japanese at the time were in support of their countries actions, and to say that it all happened because they didn't want to bad enough is just plain silly. You've got to stop making such broad sweeping assumptions about the Japanese people.

Quote:
When people use literary phrases to deconstruct my comments, it usually means they can't win, so they hope to undermine the legitimacy of my argument instead. My statement is perfectly valid. The few remaining survivors of Japan's war crimes are physically and emotionally crippled. Why is it wrong, in your eyes, for them to not feel remorse for what happened to Japan?


I think it's funny that you're trying to derail my point about your previous post by saying that "OMGZ I MUST NOT HAVE ANY ARGUMENT, I KNOW I CANT WIN".

Save it, you're post was made solely to incite emotion, and to distract from the previous posts I made citing your logical fallacies. No, of course, I cannot blame the people who suffered from Japan's war crimes for feeling bitter and vengeful, no more so than I can blame Nakazawa-san for being upset about how the attacks are viewed globally, and a lack of remorse held by the US.

Both Nakazawa-san and the victims you brought up are justified in feeling that way, though adopting any kind of public attitude based on that is not. Everyone else, however, has no right to claim any sense of bitterness.

Everything you mentioned in regards to the Japanese public are blatant generalizations, and your "points" towards them bringing it all on themselves is baseless. You could address the government, but you don't, you blame people like Nakazawa, when he clearly did and does not support his governments actions (pre-emptive or otherwise). Hell, I think Barefoot Gen clearly illustrates from his point of view that a decent portion of the populace didn't support the war, and was upset actively at their government for going through with it (I believe his father was a vocal anti-war proponent).

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but if the people refuse to say or act otherwise, that means they acknowledge the legitimacy of the government.


I'm going to wrap this whole thing up with a point, using your own logic as a centerpiece. You, as a fellow American citizen (presumably) acknowledge the Bush admin's mistakes during and post 9/11 (citing political agendas and greed). By not successfully voting him out of office in 04, and not overthrowing the government, does that mean that the 54% of americans support the president, his administration, and their actions/policies? Is the only way to not get lumped up with the people that do, move or revolt?

If so, then we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I wouldn't want to live in a world so generalized and black-and-white, that people couldn't grasp the concept of a diversified populace.

And in that case, jihadists definitely have a point, and are justified in attacking us, because by not revolting/moving, 100% of us support things like Guantanamo Bay. > _ <
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:53 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
One emperor and a few generals+tons of military personel obligated to enforce said rulers policies / a strong split between the public as to whether to support the government's actions or rebel = quite a tough time in forming a legitimate and strong resistence.


So you're basically supporting my argument that the majority of the public(military and civilian) endorsed the actions of the government.

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Not all the Japanese at the time were in support of their countries actions, and to say that it all happened because they didn't want to bad enough is just plain silly.


On Politically Incorrect, Bill Maher made a point that if the Iraqis wanted to be liberated, they'd do it themselves. When someone said that they were up against a superpower, Bill Maher argued that we were, too, when we fought the British. (Not to mention the Romanians, who were able to overthrow their communist oppressors.) His closing argument was that, "someone has to be willing to die in the streets".

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Save it, you're post was made solely to incite emotion,


I know your heart only belongs to the Japanese "little Eichmanns", so I wasn't trying to win you over, because you obviously only think that they deserve sympathy. Your argument was why should people use their grudges to justify what happened to Japan. And I was just trying to point out that those grudges have substance.

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no more so than I can blame Nakazawa-san for being upset about how the attacks are viewed globally,


I also can't blame him, but I'm not going to vindicate his government, either.

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and a lack of remorse held by the US.


Why should we feel remorse? We let the Japanese eff up the South Pacific for almost a decade and they attacked us next. They were willing to use their own people as bombs for the sake of the ideology of one Emperor. Therefore, they should be happy to have died for his sake. If they're not happy, then it's not our fault.

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Both Nakazawa-san and the victims you brought up are justified in feeling that way, though adopting any kind of public attitude based on that is not.


Sorry, but if you're going to re-write history books to take out lines about "comfort women", don't act shocked when your embassies get trashed, and the government ban your media.

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Everyone else, however, has no right to claim any sense of bitterness.


So you're saying relatives of American vets who died in the war are not entitled to feel animosity for losing their loved ones to war criminals?

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Everything you mentioned in regards to the Japanese public are blatant generalizations,


Yeah, and the Germans were "just following orders".

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You could address the government, but you don't,


Again, as long as they continue to go along with it, any government, even a dictatorship
reflects the will of the people. The fact that the Japanese still elect the same types of people who got them into this mess in the first place is a testament to that will.

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you blame people like Nakazawa, when he clearly did and does not support his governments actions (pre-emptive or otherwise).


If he doesn't support his government's actions, then why is he blaming us?

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Hell, I think Barefoot Gen clearly illustrates from his point of view that a decent portion of the populace didn't support the war, and was upset actively at their government for going through with it (I believe his father was a vocal anti-war proponent).


It might have been a "decent portion", but it was clearly not a majority.

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By not successfully voting him out of office in 04, and not overthrowing the government, does that mean that the 54% of americans support the president, his administration, and their actions/policies?


Yep. I never said I was proud of my country for "voting" for the grandson of a war profiteer, but we're paying for it with half a million dead Iraqis, and almost 4,000 dead vets.
That's the price you pay when you spend more time reading the Bible and watching Lost than studying the issues.

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And in that case, jihadists definitely have a point, and are justified in attacking us, because by not revolting/moving, 100% of us support things like Guantanamo Bay. > _ <


In theory, the mid-term elections should be our "revolt", but the system is rigged so that we get only two parties who both think we should nuke Iran, but can't decide on how many nukes to finish the job. Rolling Eyes
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