Forum - View topicShelf Life - K-On Flux
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Yeah, Kyon comes within a hair's breath of lighting Haruhi up over something she does to Asahina. It's a pretty powerful scene. |
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TC-man
 Posts: 118 |
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I guess Erin now finally knows how to generate more posts in the Shelf life's forum threads
I like Chobits and K-On myself. Chobits for the music and songs which are superbly well made and sung (some have such a French vibe which are great) and the darker and serious plot at the end of the show. And K-On for the slice of life, just watch and enjoy the funny antics of the girls (and teacher), the animation quality is top-notch (it's made by Kyoani after all), the show includes some great music & insert songs. I wish I had a light music club at school back in the days. Erin, if you really want to watch a very interesting show/anime about the social impact of robots in a fictional world in the near future, then I can recommend you to watch Eve no Jikan (Time of Eve) which was simulcasted at Crunchyroll. |
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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Nowadays, Time of EVE should be watched in the "complete edition" aka the movie, which includes all the original episodes and some additional scenes that explain a bit more about the background story. I'd say rather than the social impact of robots, it is more about the social impact on robots ... but in the end, it's just simply a great movie.
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ArthurFrDent
 Posts: 466 |
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So, Erin... Illuminate me as to how you define: "sexual politics". I'd like to understand your point of view better.
I'm guessing that you are right, in that you would certainly hate DearS by the end. It asks some interesting questions, but isn't groundbreaking with the answers. On the other hand... so Bamboo, how do you think that Poul Anderson, or Niven, or Bradbury would take on these themes? How would you classify Dune? |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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Unless I'm mistaken, her column has always consistently generated lengthy threads at ANN. because she's not afraid to go with her own opinion and slam a sacred cow (or two). |
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 598 |
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After reading this paragraph I suddenly remembered how much I loved Alvin and the Chipmunks as a child in the '80s.
I like Haruhi as a character, but I despise the authorial intent to continually exploit Asahina. I think her exploitation is even done with a tongue-in-cheek self-consciousness. We're supposed to feel bad about it as it happens, but I think we the readers (or viewers) are also supposed to get off on Asahina's exploitation by Haruhi; that is, we're supposed to think it's sexy and feel guilty about it at the same time. Instead I just feel sorry for Asahina and angry at the author. (Or maybe the author is trolling us all, maybe it's not supposed to be sexy but it is supposed to make us feel bad, in which case he's accomplished his mission.)
Earlier in the thread there was a lively debate about the term "politics" and how anime can contain politics whether it is intended or not. Let's see...Here's a definition from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexual+politics:
Apparently "Sexual Politics" is also the title of an important (and controversial) book by Kate Millett. At least part of said book is online, and Millett lays down some useful definitions:
Basically what I think is this; Hideki has way too much power over Chi in their relationship. He has power over her as her teacher, her parent, her owner (because she's an object) and even her programmer (and system administrator, since she's a computer). He's a man in a patriarchal Japanese society, so he's got that power by default. Hideki is the leaseholder of his apartment (probably) so he has the power of a leaseholding roommate (if Chi was human, which she's not). Since Chi gets a job, she could split the rent, but instead she gives all her wages to Hideki, and uses those wages to cook food for him, so she's acting as a voluntary servant. Hideki isn't paying her for labor AND he seems to own her (having claimed her from the trash). The only reasons Chi isn't a slave is because her labor is voluntary and Hideki chooses to treat her as a free human instead of a robot slave (although other men in the show have multiple of robot slaves). Plus, we could assume that humans still outnumber Persocoms in the world, so Chi may technically part be a minority as well. Chi has some power, as we learn spoiler[she can disable all the persocoms around her] and physically she spoiler[can balance on top of light posts and sort of leap around in a superhuman way] so Hideki may not have physical dominance over Chi. The power dynamic of their relationship as lovers is horribly tilted in Hideki's favor. The other forum posters are correct in saying this is a powerful male fantasy. Because Chi is not legally or technically human, and in the show she counts as property Hideki owns... yet she's also qualifying as a woman... the idea of women as property makes me super uncomfortable. I also think that because the story is couched in cute romance for teens, it's subversive. That said, in my experience consuming Japanese media, a lot of sexual relationships, in romance but especially in hentai, are based on power dynamics. Teacher/student romances are perennially popular, for example. Not all power fantasies upset me, but Chobits does... And part of my annoyance with Chobits is that it ought to be a better show. It starts to ask good questions and presents interesting problems, but it cops out before the end. |
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ArthurFrDent
Posts: 466 |
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Thanks for taking the time to make such a thoughtful response Erin, I appreciate that.
I think it interesting from the way you wrote this, that you fully view Chii as a person. That will be an argument that we will have as a species as time goes on, becasue there will be pleasure robots... what will have to happen before we start viewing them as persons? Turing test? Or will it be even sooner, the way you would talk to a pet as if it could talk back to you. How far will the stretch be between talking to your car, asking it to please not break down? Or talking to your computer to ask it not to crash? How much will early personhood depend on our projection of human interests on non-human artifacts. If you look at this from Hideki's point of view, he has taken your enumerated powers over Chii and done the best possible thing he can by her, and she accepted that. And so did Freya. In essence it was entirely a test to see what he would do. How much of their relationship exists simply becasue he treats it as one? I also don't see how she qualifies as a woman, since she will never be one, and he can't really treat her as one either. This is where the question of her as an object, or as some other kind of sentient life form gets murky... She is no more a woman than a blow up ningyo. Like the ningyo, she is only a representation. There would be a certain argument indeed that she is searching for only Hideki since it is only he who can be the person for her. Someone who will treat her like a person more than he treats her like an object, even though she IS an object. Is power bad when it is abused, or bad in general? You say the power fantasy upsets you, but is that because it has the potential for harm? I didn't see real harm, nor would I expect it. But as with DATA, knowing where the off switch of an android does present a power differential that is existant based on design, and cannot really be changed... As you say, and like many, many anime, it asks some pretty interesting questions, and fails on execution of their answers... but for me this conversation likely wouldn't take place without such a thing, so I'd call it OK on the whole. And? I'd recommend against DearS entirely, because Ren is actually a human and a woman, so it'd prolly bug you even more. |
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GrilledEelHamatsu
 Posts: 703 |
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Ms Erin, there is ZERO nudity in DearS, a very mininal amount of panty shots, and almost entirely tame,subtle non taboo amount of sexual innuendo in DearS that would make a 7th grader blush. If you feel uncomfortable with this title, then you should probably stay away from other titles with skimpy dressed girls like Real Bout High School,Kaleido Star,Ga Rei ZERO just to name a few. Because the amount of fan service in those so called young teen titles is BUTCH compared to the significantly low fan service in DearS. Trust me, its a heck of alot tamer than those titles.
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Oh I see now. You're basing your opinion on Chobits on how IF the plot were written differently, it'd be a horrible sexist pile of chauvinistic crap. I can see how this can ruin your opinion of Chobits. I can also see how it could ruin your opinion of just about ANY anime out there if you start watching a show and try to warp the characters into this mindset. So you did this was Chobits, which makes your opinion of the show pre-determined bias. You saw what you wanted to see but when the show presented something to counter this vision you had of it, you either weren't paying attention or straight out ignored it. You're going on about how disgusting it is that Chi is pretty much a four year old that Hideki is taking advantage of, apparently imagining in your mind the two sleeping together - but that's just one of those things you're making up and the anime never touches because you seemed to miss in the anime that Chi and Hideki's relationship, throughout the whole series, was completely platonic. This is where you and some people find things gross about this series with your imagination while other people find the series cute and innocent because they don't question how pure either of the two main character are. No sex was involved, and it never will be. Chi acts like a kid, and Hideki is so innocent and pure he might as well be considered Chi's human equal. Hideki also, unlike the other Persocom owners of Japan (I'll point out too there are male persocoms) never considered Chii his property or acted like it. He always considered her a person, and in his male sex-starved mind he knew he could really easily take advantage of her - but he never went down that route. Yes, Chobits is a power male fantasy, typical of Japan, but it has a twist. Clamp wanted to use the standard plot of a cute girl ending up in the house of a socially inept male - yes they're guilty of this but so is half of the anime that come out every year. But like every genre CLAMP approaches, they try to give it a twist. Suddenly the girl is an all powerful robot with past memories seeping through what was otherwise thought to be a deleted hard drive, and it's revealed Chi is actually meant to bring about a new revolution to the persocoms by bringing them the option of choice in love; pretty much making those mindless machines closer to being human. Then all throughout the show, the weird visions Chii has of her doppleganger, or the Children's books, are all about the social impact of humans falling in love with machines, and Chi gaining the power to CHOSE. And it gets deeper on the price of falling in love and the impact it can have on a person (or in this particular case with Chi - or her sister, the price of a broken heart.) It's the rise of the machines. Skynet but without all the human bloodshed with machines trying to kill us when they develop a way to think for themselves. Instead of death, the robots are bringing us love and freedom for themselves. It's a happy, simple, lovey dovey twist to something played up on a lot in sci-fi. But Chobits never fully focuses on the big picture of the worldwide impact of this. It's implied, but Chobits is mainly the story of Chii and Hideki, the story of a super advanced girl robot, and the boy who loves her but can also never get it on with her. If a guy's main fantasy is a cute girl he can never get it on with, then well... I think you need to talk to more guys. I also think your problem with the story isn't the innocence of Chi and the fact that Hideki loves her. I think your problem is you absolutely cannot buy that Hideki is a pure, sweet, good guy who will never ever EVER have sex with that robot. How is a love relationship a guy has with a machine gross if he's not having sexual relationships with that machine? I know a ton of guys who are totally in love with their cars - I don't think it's icky, I just think it's weird. So I guess my problem with this review of yours is you pretty much forced Chobits into this mold you made for it, making Hideki out to be some seriously perverted dude taking advantage of Chi, and claiming the show is nothing more than about a socially inept dude who gets a cute girl living in his house who just happens to be a robot. I feel like we watched two completely different shows - or you just never even made it to the ending. Last edited by littlegreenwolf on Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Cosplaybunny
 Posts: 224 |
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I have to disagree with this being a male power fantasy. Having complete control over one's lover or even just another human being is a power fantasy shared by both men and women. It's a fantasy that's crosses cultures and centuries. It's also something that's impossible to achieve as no human can have complete control over another human being. That's what's makes the idea of a persocom so appealing to both male and female fans of the show. The genders of the leads could have easy been anything and the show have kept it's same meaning. It is not that chi takes a female form that gives Hideki "power" over her, it's that she's is a persocom, an object that can be manipulated to fulfill one's own hopes and desires.
Now I will admit that Chobits sort of fails at providing any answers to the questions they bring up (what makes something human, does anyone have the right to have absolute control over something especially when that something has the capacity for free will). Clamp is no Asimov not by a long shot, but I don't feel that Chobits was intended to be a simple wish-fulfillment fantasy for men alone. |
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Gewürtztraminer
 Posts: 1028 Location: Texas - Its like whole other country. |
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It makes up for it with characters who if their master directed would gladly slit their throats and bleed out for his enjoyment. The entire point of the show was for the headstrong free spirit lead to embrace slavery as a good thing. Hilarity ensues. |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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Considering Kyon spoiler[almost slaps Haruhi hard for her mistreatment of Mikuru and Haruhi even has the audacity to admit she considers Mikuru nothing but a tool to use, and the only reason Itsuki stops Kyon is because of the world-shattering consequences the slap would have], it's pretty clear the author is saying this sort of behavior is unacceptable. Not to mention Haruhi's character development later on in the novels involves her behaving more appropriately around Mikuru, so there you go. Let's face it, there's tons of immoral behavior in fiction that people can get off on, praise, etc. even when it's clearly not the point of the fictional work. The mangaka of Death Note has flat out said Light is very evil, so it's not his fault there's still plenty of fans who consider Light to be a hero and cheer him on. In the end, authors simply present us with events. They don't control whether we find it appealing or disgusting, that's up to the individual. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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So him sticking his hand up into her privates is completely platonic? I don't know a lot of pure, sweet innocent guys who would look at a female looking robot and think "Hmmmm.. lemme see, how do I activate her... hmmm... maybe there's a button on her breasts... hmmm oohhh, nope, not there. Hmmm where could it be, lets see... - super anime blush - Ohhhh, I bet it's in between her legs... Ohhhh better make sure no one's looking, yea I bet it's up there... ohh BINGO!!" |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14761 |
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"It's good to be the king!"
There's naught wrong with wish-fulfillment fantasy itself anyways!
I dunno......... I think all those turn most women on.
Last edited by enurtsol on Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nayu
Posts: 676 |
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Thats actually pretty much exactly how it went down. Hideki searches for her on-switch everywhere and via process of elimination ends up checking the last possible place with as much embarrassment as one would expect of a chaste virgin as he's played in the anime and manga. Its his last ditch effort to power her up. |
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