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Last edited by epixeltwin on Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:03 pm; edited 2 times in total

Kilgamayan wrote:

epixeltwin wrote:

Kilgamayan wrote:

burzmali wrote:

Mint Mania IIDX wrote:

Can we honestly be blamed for liking something, be it loli, guro, furry, or anything else?

Can a spree killer really be blamed for liking to kill?

Yes, because killing is against the law.

and what about child porn?

Again, yes, because it's illegal as long as it involves real children or very realistic depictions of children.

EDIT:

epixeltwin wrote:

I just don't get why anyone would NEED loli.

You don't have to need something to enjoy it. Do you NEED anime? No, you would be able to proceed with a normal everyday life without it.

When someone psychologically breaks down to the point where they NEED loli to carry on with their normal daily routine, that's probably when federal eyebrows should be raised.

What I mean is the following: if you're watching hentai, it's very probably to get sexual arousal. So if you NEED the characters to be children in order to get that arousal, that's where the problem lies. Don't you agree? If you don't get your hard-on when the anime girl is 25, and then you gotta buy that DVD where she's 9 to get it, I'm going to have doubts about you.

I watch anime to get entertained, period. If I watch porn or hentai (very rare but it occured) now and then, I don't look for a title with particularly young children. And hell, if the girl is like 14 or 15, I won't even mind. But I won't be specific and try to find animated porn with children.

I don't automatically blame anyone for enjoying loli. I just have some serious doubts about it, and you're somewhat thick if you don't understand how I may have them. What would you think if I told you that I watched scathological porn and then said: But wait, I'm just watching it, I wouldn't do it or anything. It is pretty sure that you would have some small thoughts about it.

I don't repress anyone and I understand that people should enjoy what they like freely. But there always is a line that needs to be drawn, like the consentment age.

BTW: if anyone knows this...Is porn with 14-year-olds legal in Canada? in Japan?

epixeltwin wrote:
I just don't get why anyone would NEED loli.

Mint Mania IIDX wrote:

Those who need it are those who have addictions to it, and as I said, too much of anything is never good. I truly believe that the basement-dwelling lolicon collectors that hug their Sakura body pillows do have issues they need to take care of that go beyond the bounds of a lolicon preference, and I'm trying to point out that the generalization that many anime fans here are fearing is the very same kind of generalization they are tossing out at the lolicon community, thus showing their hypocrisy. It's like saying that all nerds and geeks have thick glasses, own two-story anime collections, and spend all of their time coding in C++ on their Linux-enabled computers. It's a silly stereotype, and while stereotypes are often based on fact, they do not necessarily represent majority. Lolicon is a gateway for child rape in the same light that marijuana is a gateway to harder drugs: the problem does not lie with the substance, the problem lies with the person who simply wants more fantasy in his reality. We as a community, be it lolicon, anime, gaming, or societal, draw the line there. Don't bring your fantasy into our reality. The moment this happens, whatever material you based your fantasy on is not to blame. You, the person who brought the fantasy forward, are to blame.

I totally agree with what you said. The sicko who can't control himself is a problem. The sicko who makes fantasy real is the problem. But child porn is still illegal...I don't really know about lolicon. Seriously, to be able to go more in-depth, I'd have to bring myself to watch some.

And to point it out, I did not bring out that loli-fans are child rapists. I just said I didn't respect the basement-dwelling otaku, not that he was a raving sexual predator. There's just a limit to what should be animated. I don't think anyone should be allowed to make movies about 10-year olds being banged without their consent, even if it's not live-action. But there's really no way to monitor the exact content of loli. And there won't ever be any committee or whatever that's able to do it fairly.

I'm curious: What do you think about the creators of a show depicting, let's say, an 8-year old being harshly done (without consent) by her father? I'd be astonished if you endorsed it. Does that make it clearer to you why I have some apprehension?

epixeltwin wrote:

What I mean is the following: if you're watching hentai, it's very probably to get sexual arousal. So if you NEED the characters to be children in order to get that arousal, that's where the problem lies. Don't you agree? If you don't get your hard-on when the anime girl is 25, and then you gotta buy that DVD where she's 9 to get it, I'm going to have doubts about you.

Ah, I remember when the term "fetish" had the connotation that you needed that thing to become aroused. A foot fetishist, for example, couldn't have sex without foot stuff. Nowadays, the youngsters have fouled the whole system up, though! Go old school!

ThirdWizard wrote:

epixeltwin wrote:

What I mean is the following: if you're watching hentai, it's very probably to get sexual arousal. So if you NEED the characters to be children in order to get that arousal, that's where the problem lies. Don't you agree? If you don't get your hard-on when the anime girl is 25, and then you gotta buy that DVD where she's 9 to get it, I'm going to have doubts about you.

Ah, I remember when the term "fetish" had the connotation that you needed that thing to become aroused. A foot fetishist, for example, couldn't have sex without foot stuff. Nowadays, the youngsters have fouled the whole system up, though! Go old school!

Wtf does that have to do with it? A person who gets his arousal solely from children is called a paedophile, there's no denying it. Don't try to get cocky here, TYVM sir.

And about you, Mr.Cool Old School guy... Just note that loli-watchers aren't very trendy around these days. I don't hate them, but I wouldn't go public were I one of them.

epixeltwin wrote:

Wtf does that have to do with it? A person who gets his arousal solely from children is called a paedophile, there's no denying it. Don't try to get cocky here, TYVM sir.

I thought I was being fairly obvious, but I'll be more careful in the future.

You're the only one who said "solely." Now, far be it for me to stick up for the loli-cons when I'm really not behind the loli-con behavior, but the argument was flawed, so I decided to call you on it. In the future, I'll be more precise, however, and not try to be so jovial about it. Confused

Loli-cons might like other kinds of porn.

There ya go. Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I do know that I like a fair varety of things, but that doesn't preclude me from liking other perverse things.

Quote:

And about you, Mr.Cool Old School guy...

Eh? You totally lost me, there.

Oh, you ARE right about it. But if the lolicon watchers can enjoy regular hentai, why do they still want animated porn depicting X-underage-year-olds being done in x-manner? I have a problem with it only if it's condemnable, that is.

epixeltwin wrote:

Oh, you ARE right about it. But if the lolicon watchers can enjoy regular hentai, why do they still want animated porn depicting X-underage-year-olds being done in x-manner? I have a problem with it only if it's condemnable, that is.

I guess its because they don't see anything wrong with it, whether there is actually anything wrong with it or not. If they don't see anyting wrong with it, then there's no reason for them not to watch it when they feel like it. If they did see something wrong with it, I would hope that they wouldn't do it. So, same reason someone will watch futa, tentacles, or furries. To them its just another type of H.

epixeltwin wrote:

What I mean is the following: if you're watching hentai, it's very probably to get sexual arousal. So if you NEED the characters to be children in order to get that arousal, that's where the problem lies. Don't you agree? If you don't get your hard-on when the anime girl is 25, and then you gotta buy that DVD where she's 9 to get it, I'm going to have doubts about you.

I watch anime to get entertained, period. If I watch porn or hentai (very rare but it occured) now and then, I don't look for a title with particularly young children. And hell, if the girl is like 14 or 15, I won't even mind. But I won't be specific and try to find animated porn with children.

But what does that even MEAN when it's a drawing, which inherently has no age? You watch the US version of "La Blue Girl" and it states that the main character is 19, despite the fact that the anime itself makes no claim to her age. The VERY young looking Minnie May in Gunsmith Cats is called 19 in the US version and not the Japanese version. And yet that makes it okay now, right? They're of age now because I put two little numbers on a page saying they are?

If a series had a loli-looking character that the story goes out of it's way to say is an adult with a disease that cause her not to age so she looks like a ten year old but is really 25, does that pass the test? Is Ranma 1/2 child porn because it has bare breasts of under-18 women? Or is it okay because Ranma is "technically" a man?

Me personally, I find the idea of lolicon disgusting and I'd never watch it. But you know what? I find damn near every hentai I've ever had the misfortune to see to be pretty damn disgusting. I find most porn in general to be pretty disgusting. Doesn't mean I think it should be done away with....it just means I won't watch it.

Ugh this all over again. First of all Zac's choice of letters were very biased and just like he said he doesn't want people to announce thier love for lolita, I also don't wanna hear that he hates it over and over. I have never seen lolita anime, never will and I am pretty creeped out by the severity of some of them but if people want to watch crap like that, I don't care as long as they don't expose it to me. If people are gonna be punished for sick yet legal fetishes then go after the people who watch rape videos and bondage like someone said on before, if those are gonna be safe and legal I guess lolita has to be legal too as long as it's not accompanied by real child pornagraphy either. Yes we frown on it and see it as totally nasty but I don't care, they have that freedom unfortunately and I care not for Zac's opinion on the whole matter.

Yes I have done flip flopping on this certain topic before but in the end I think this is where I stand. I do read yuri and yaoi manga (minus rape, bondage and very underage individuals mind you) so hopefully I'm not being hyporcrytical in my stance.

jgreen wrote:

If a series had a loli-looking character that the story goes out of it's way to say is an adult with a disease that cause her not to age so she looks like a ten year old but is really 25, does that pass the test? Is Ranma 1/2 child porn because it has bare breasts of under-18 women? Or is it okay because Ranma is "technically" a man?

I think you were being rhetorical, but, as I understand it, there are standards for what constitutes lolita stuff. First of all, actual age is irrelevant. You can be a thousand year old demon who looks like a little girl (Raimuiro Senkitan has one of these), but you're still a lolita. It's about the physical qualities, appearing to be a pre-pubescent girl.

I think there's debate on issues like how flat chested they have to be to be considered a lolita, but bleh, that's splitting hairs, and probably some people's vain attempts to section themselves out of loli-con behavior.

So, you can have a 15 year old who looks like Rei Ayanami, and that's not loli. She's underage, yes. But, being underage and being a lolita really don't go hand in hand.

epixeltwin wrote:

Kilgamayan wrote:

epixeltwin wrote:

Kilgamayan wrote:

burzmali wrote:

Mint Mania IIDX wrote:

Can we honestly be blamed for liking something, be it loli, guro, furry, or anything else?

Can a spree killer really be blamed for liking to kill?

Yes, because killing is against the law.

and what about child porn?

Again, yes, because it's illegal as long as it involves real children or very realistic depictions of children.

EDIT:

epixeltwin wrote:

I just don't get why anyone would NEED loli.

You don't have to need something to enjoy it. Do you NEED anime? No, you would be able to proceed with a normal everyday life without it.

When someone psychologically breaks down to the point where they NEED loli to carry on with their normal daily routine, that's probably when federal eyebrows should be raised.

What I mean is the following: if you're watching hentai, it's very probably to get sexual arousal. So if you NEED the characters to be children in order to get that arousal, that's where the problem lies. Don't you agree? If you don't get your hard-on when the anime girl is 25, and then you gotta buy that DVD where she's 9 to get it, I'm going to have doubts about you.

No one ever said lolicoms only enjoyed lolicon. Mint can tell you from personal experience that such isn't the case.

For many lolicoms, the age isn't a necessity, it's just a nice bonus, one that's nice enough that it's worth going out of your way to get as long as the cost isn't too great. It's like a cherry for your ice cream. It's nice to have to the point where you're willing to go out and buy some cherries (as long as they aren' overly expensive) but the ice cream is still enjoyable as a stand-alone food.

epixeltwin wrote:

I don't automatically blame anyone for enjoying loli. I just have some serious doubts about it, and you're somewhat thick if you don't understand how I may have them. What would you think if I told you that I watched scathological porn and then said: But wait, I'm just watching it, I wouldn't do it or anything. It is pretty sure that you would have some small thoughts about it.

I recognize that people have problems with the subject matter, and I understand why they would do so. I doubt any lolicoms will argue that loli is "good" or "right"; mostly they argue when it is called "bad" or "wrong" or when they themselves are attacked for it.

epixeltwin wrote:

I'm curious: What do you think about the creators of a show depicting, let's say, an 8-year old being harshly done (without consent) by her father? I'd be astonished if you endorsed it. Does that make it clearer to you why I have some apprehension?

If a show like that is made specifically to show a little girl doing whatever with an older individual, I personally find it tasteless and retarded, so I just ignore it, really. I mean, yes, it can depict some pretty awful things, but then, I realize that I need not be emotional about it, because what's happening has no emotion either. It's animated sex between non-existent individuals. Sometimes, you will sit there and think to yourself "Oh, that's just awful!" but it's just fantasy. Whatever, you know? I mentioned in the last thread a lolicon hentai video called "Harumi's Bad Play". All it really has to offer is a little girl doing things with an old guy. That's it. No real rhyme or reason. It's just... shallow hentai. I personally find any hentai like that pretty stupid, so I don't even bother with it. It's a waste of time if that's all I have to follow. I don't care if it appeals to fetish or not... Oh god, do I seem weird for wanting a decent story with my hentai (Dragon Rider comes to mind... sorta)?

Now, have you seen the anime Elfen Lied? While it does not show it, it very much depicts the implication of lolicon rape between a little girl and her father. It is actually there for a reason, and it shows how awful what happened to her was. I did not find this arousing, but I did find it very integral to the plot and the emotion that Elfen Lied was trying to portray. That I very much endorse.

ThirdWizard wrote:

I think you were being rhetorical, but, as I understand it, there are standards for what constitutes lolita stuff. First of all, actual age is irrelevant. You can be a thousand year old demon who looks like a little girl (Raimuiro Senkitan has one of these), but you're still a lolita. It's about the physical qualities, appearing to be a pre-pubescent girl.

I think there's debate on issues like how flat chested they have to be to be considered a lolita, but bleh, that's splitting hairs, and probably some people's vain attempts to section themselves out of loli-con behavior.

So, you can have a 15 year old who looks like Rei Ayanami, and that's not loli. She's underage, yes. But, being underage and being a lolita really don't go hand in hand.

When I think of thousand year demons--

With the post, I bring up the Disgaea Defense. Take Etna and Flonne, the two lolis from Makai Senki Disgaea. They have flat-chests. They look like pre-pubescent girls. They are, and have the mindsets of, 1000+ year old supernatural beings. So... if I look at Flonne and Etna porn, am I looking at something to be considered child pornography?

As the post states, being underage and being a lolita don't necessarily go hand in hand. The general standard, it seems with hentai at least, revolves around body type. Age will come into play, of course, but it's not a necessary thing, as we have seen with Flonne and Etna.

frentymon wrote:

PantsGoblin wrote:

If it were just the loli I was looking for, I'd rather watch something else since Higurashi doesn't even remotely sexualize its characters.

The original doujin game does have H content in it though.

No it didn't. And have you seen the art from the games? It would be pretty tough to get off on that as it's actually rather bad.

ThirdWizard wrote:

I guess its because they don't see anything wrong with it, whether there is actually anything wrong with it or not. If they don't see anyting wrong with it, then there's no reason for them not to watch it when they feel like it. If they did see something wrong with it, I would hope that they wouldn't do it. So, same reason someone will watch futa, tentacles, or furries. To them its just another type of H.

For some reason I don't think you understand that this is exactly what society in general is worried about. More than once, lolis have claimed that they really don't see any difference between loli girls and women. That scares the hell out of parents. "Oh, but its just drawings", sure, and if start watching lots of yaoi because I like watching anal sex, my girlfriend has nothing about, there is nothing homosexual about watching drawings of men have sex.

I posted in a forum that I feel is very credible on this subject this very post:

Mint Mania IIDX wrote:

I haven't actually seen this show yet, but I figured I would come here to ask about something. In a debate concerning lolicon, someone brought this up:

Quote:

There's no getting around the stigma that watching something like Higurashi no whatever means you're attracted to little girls. That's who the show is aimed at, that's what they're selling it on, that's who it's for. That you get no sexual satisfaction from watching it is something you're going to have to convince people of, and that's just the way it goes.

...

Higurashi is selling itself mostly with little girls. Yeah, there's mystery and whatnot but most of the marketing materials highlight the lolicon girls in the show.

You like it for the mystery and suspense, so you think that's what it's selling itself on, but that isn't really the case. You have to look at these things objectively. Just look at the marketing materials.

Also, it's pretty obvious what the differences are between shows that simply have characters in them that are little girls and shows that spotlight little girls and put them in situations where they are easily sexualized. If you make a show about 5-year old girls in skimpy clothes who do "cute" things, air it at 1:30 in the morning and aim it at college males, that's lolicon bait. If the cast of your show is primarily girls who look like they're under 10 and it's targeted at college-aged males, that's lolicon bait. This isn't rocket science.

What do you guys think?

Here's some interesting responses:

Quote:

I think that it's pretty awesome how people can make shit up and state it as fact on the internet. What a surprise!

Quote:

The cuteness of certain characters only added to the general creepyness of the show, and as far as I'm concerned is the only reason why the characters look that way.

The extremely exaggerated features of the girls (even larger eyes than in most animes, enormous heads, etc.) doesn't strike me as attractive at all, quite the opposite. I also don't see how this is "a show about 5-year old girls in skimpy clothes [doing] "cute" things", maybe whoever wrote that somehow missed all the torture scenes and creepy atmosphere.

Quote:

...Higurashi doesn't really sexualize anything, and is low on fanservice in general aside from maybe the twins' gigantic chests. It seems like a poor example of lolicon, and the argument would have been better made with something like Nanoha.

Quote:

The person who wrote that is stupid.

Quote:

I think it's a load of crap, frankly. I have yet to see any attempts to make the characters seem "sexy" or "attractive". Yes, there are females in the show, but I think their general innocence is deliberate, and makes for a creepy contrast when judged against the storyline of the show, especially when the girls go scary. Putting innocent people in terrifying situations is hardly unusual when it comes to the horror genre. To me, it's the horror and mystery which hooked me into this show.

These people are not friends, and they do share any lolicon interests with me.

I like how everybody here has become an instant expert in the field of psychology.

Mass intelligence upgrade? Subliminal classes taught through staring at ANN's banner ads? I'd like to see the tuition fees before I enroll in this lofty new technological endeavor.

What sort of "sickness" a person who enjoys lolicon is up for debate - but not by a bunch of otaku on an internet message board. Most of us are sputtering morons who can barely string together two sentences to express our opinion of Japanese cartoons. And now suddenly we're all PHDs and experts on both Japanese culture and the fields of sociology and criminology. Get over yourselves.

It's hilarious how the majority of the "debate" on this subject in this thread is simply the reiteration of one's base reaction to lolicon and hardly rooted in logic. Then, of course, we have the grammar-deficiant trolls and the newbies who simply post to say how "sick" lolicon fans are and "How can anyone possibly defend it?"

Free speech isn't just defending the speech or expressions that you like.

Lolicon is drawings. Drawings. Whatever sort of "action" these drawings inspire is a symptom of a deeper issue, and not the catalyst itself. Nobody's being abused or exploited in lolicon, and while it does paint a picture of anime as being sort of "skeevy", that's just a price of the fandom.

Oh, and a pedophile isn't a criminal. A child molester/abuser/solicitor/rapist is a criminal. If somebody THINKS about something, no matter how henious you find it, it's not a crime. To persecute a person for their thoughts is Orwellian and scary.

But that's just my opinion.

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