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Hey, Answerman! [2006-08-25]


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Magenta Syntax



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:13 am Reply with quote
Companies really like to make money, they have a responsibility to their shareholders or investors to make as much as they possibly can. They are not ignorant of fansubbing. Accountants have counted the beans several times. If they saw advantage in fansubs, or low-quality time limited samples on YouTube, they wouldn't protest so much.

In order for a for-profit studio-supported fansub system to work, the studio would have to hire additional people fluent in all major "fansub market" languages to moderate, coordinate, and track progress of their volunteer workforce.

Someone has to be on point and responsive to translation questions; when you pay for a download, you expect it to be right.
    What if it isn't right?
    It's the fault of the studio moderator QC person.
    What if the QC person couldn't get cooperation from the fansub volunteers?
    Umm...
    What if the studio was aiming for a simultaneous worldwide release, had bought ads in advance for this, but some languages weren't ready in time, or were released with problems just to make the date?
    It's the studios fault for not making sure all the work was done before taking out ads and working up expectations.
    How long should a studio sit on a show, paying these moderator's salaries, waiting for all the volunteer work to get done?
    Forget volunteers. It's like herding cats. Let's sign up some real people who are not anonymous, and pay 'em something so they have a greater sense of investment and responsibility.
    How much will THAT cost? Now we have 100 additional people on the payroll working 20 languages, and we don't even know if our show works with a Japanese audience!
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:34 pm Reply with quote
I think you're exaggerating the situation.

Who said they had to even start trying to cover that many languages? Not to mention it could be done by a small group of people in all actuality and the original creators don't have to be responsible for foreign distribution after all, they never were, just the companies who want to get the license for distributing it in a certain language(s).

Again, if they see profit in it, it wouldn't be hard for them to do it. It would have to be pioneered obviously with attempts, so a large scale first attempt isn't expected anyway.
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Magenta Syntax



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:53 pm Reply with quote
Steve007101 Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:18 pm wrote:
, or the original distributors do this or whatever, so actual official subbed versions of anime can come out very close to if not at the same time they are released in Japan... or at least if they decided to make a big effort for that, streaming on the internet most likely yes and through a service, I think that'd make everyone's day.

Steve007101 Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:34 pm wrote:
the original creators don't have to be responsible for foreign distribution after all, they never were, just the companies who want to get the license for distributing it in a certain language(s).

Huh?

I think you said you want a system where the studios get in on the "fansub" action, so interested fans worldwide can see a show all at the same time, while the studio gets paid.

I presented a potential business model for a studio: managers per-language that coordinate the efforts of a lightly paid staff, making their contribution from around the world. I had no basis for throwing out "20 languages" - so shouldn't have used a number. The studio would decide; Too many, and they waste money. Too few, and they lose money.

I suggest an efficient way to do this would be to end the current licensing system, which leads to so many delays during negotiations and creates the vacuum for "I don't care" free fansub groups.

The studio would manage worldwide distribution of the translations they've coordinated, insuring everyone involved got paid, and all markets for the show would get simultaneous releases with quality translations coordinated between the groups and the original writer.
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:12 pm Reply with quote
Yeah I guess that makes good sense then. Either way, it still seems a bit far off.
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Magenta Syntax



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:04 pm Reply with quote
Right.

What I've suggested will likely never happen. We have to face the reality of the current business model, where certain translator/distributors are trusted by Anime studios to do a good job with their work in the language-markets where they do business. The license system distributes the risk and allows the studios to focus on what they do best. Why should a studio tell all of the licensors that it has built up relationships with - to go to hell?

The reality of the current volume of fansub activity, the ease of availability - regardless of how well intentioned some groups may be - throws a monkey wrench into that system.
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:36 am Reply with quote
Well it's not a huge monkey wrench or it'd be a bigger issue. Heck, issues at this column if anything are issues to anime fans but that alone isn't such a huge segment I gather. Eh, well, at least we do have fansubs today, hopefully at least until better liscensing in the future.
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:35 am Reply with quote
It'd be a bigger issue if they actually had the ability to protect their property, something you and other fansub advocates love pointing out. They have to deal with it for the time being because it's not really something they can afford to make it a bigger issue. Since it's apparent "better liscensing" to you means you get it for nothing or for free and it selfishly caters to your specific desires let's hope that doesn't occur. And as much as some of you love to whine about copyright laws being too strict, the sheer fact that you point out they can't touch you only demonstrates that's just a justification.

You've yet to demonstrate any practical and legitimate way to better license anything that would actually work in the real world. You've only whined and complained about how you want things to be that work best for you, but I've got a little bit of news that might come as a shock to you, this world doesn't exist just for you and for someone who thinks he's doing what's best for everyone it's only evident that you are in fact far more selfish and greedy than the companies you paste that label on.
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:09 pm Reply with quote
If you're addressing me, It's really quite funny how you think I'm really indicating cost to me is a factor for my argument. I'm thinking of time if anything when I say better liscensing, which ultimately means they could come out with something subbed before dubbed afterall to be practical and have things in their favor. I'm not one of the people who's even talking about copyright, I know it's wrong to misuse it pure and simple, I'm not trying to win an invalid argument. I never said any of the companies were greedy at all, if anything they aren't greedy enough or they would have better liscensing and restriction in the first place for themselves, well, if it was that easy. I'm trying at least to be realistic, fansubs happen because it's very practical on a personal level, companies don't mess with it because it isn't practical enough for them, or at least they don't think it is, today. Magenta Syntax was the one who demonstrated a correct way to do it and I admit it makes good sense, again, all that's missing is its utilization which again, is up to them, not us. If you have a better idea lets hear it.
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Magenta Syntax



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:53 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Japanese Fans Look at Quality of Fansubs 2006-07-13 01:09 I'm assuming that a lot more mistranslation exists in their works. It has become a competition of "who can release the episode first", and it seems they don't care about the quality as much any more. In their works, I can spot the over-stuffing of phrases, the rough timing, and the lack of consideration for the fans. Groups that produce these bad translations often say, "We're doing this to promote the title to the world. We're contributing a lot, so you better appreciate it!" I think their illegal activity is anything but a great thing, it's a lack of responsibility. I must say again, fansub is illegal. Nowadays it's not like most titles are still unavailable in the U.S.
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Bandai: Do Not Fansub Ghost in the Shell Film (2006-08-22 19:38:25) Warns fansubbers that they are "prepared to take legal action" “Fansubs, even those not sold for profit, are harmful to our properties and industry overall and we will be watching closely to make sure our rights regarding SSS are not infringed,” said Ken Iyadomi, President of Bandai Entertainment Inc.
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LA Times Article on Fansubs (2005-04-21 15:28:43) In response to the arguement that fansubs provide companies with "gold-plated marketing information," Chad Kime of Geneon Entertainment is quoted as saying, "[that might have been true several years ago, but currently] the bidding on many titles begins before the show even airs. Additionally, more and more 'B' titles are being ignored by the fans; many companies suspect that sales of these titles is impaired by distribution in fansub circles."
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CNet Discusses Fansubs (2005-02-01 14:42:32) The article points out that while the popularity of Anime has been growing, sales have not and distributors fear that people may not be buying DVDs because they've already seen the fansubs.
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CPM lawyer's view of bootlegs & fansubs The consumer loses again because the actual worth of anime goes down whenever bootleg products hit the market. There are some OVA series that have not been acquired by any US company because fansubs have flooded the market and cannibalized the sales. This means Japanese producers want more up front money because they don't think they will ever see a royalty payment. The more the Japanese want up front, the more expensive the programs get. Some of them get so expensive that there is no point releasing them in America. Then it's not a question of "the fans having their appetites tided over until a commercial release, because there won't be a commercial release.
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:54 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
If you're addressing me, It's really quite funny how you think I'm really indicating cost to me is a factor for my argument. I'm thinking of time if anything when I say better liscensing, which ultimately means they could come out with something subbed before dubbed afterall to be practical and have things in their favor.


They they'd have to produce two releases, with unknown sales numbers for each. The cost of anime would only rise as a result due to the increased production costs and the fact they're cutting their sales in two ensuring that one group would not be interested in one of the releases increasing the likelihood of orphaned product. Licensing takes time because they need to come to an agreement and bid for the product, they don't wait for months to start bidding, usually they start before Japanese audiences even see it.

It's a very complex system and it's not quite so simple. Fansubs don't exist for the practicality of anyone but themselves, because the "fans" want it fast and they want it now and they want it free. Maybe some fansub advocates have better intentions, but I simply don't trust the intentions of most as I've seen far too often that it's the free anime that draws most in.
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:43 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
They they'd have to produce two releases, with unknown sales numbers for each. The cost of anime would only rise as a result due to the increased production costs and the fact they're cutting their sales in two ensuring that one group would not be interested in one of the releases increasing the likelihood of orphaned product. Licensing takes time because they need to come to an agreement and bid for the product, they don't wait for months to start bidding, usually they start before Japanese audiences even see it.

It's a very complex system and it's not quite so simple. Fansubs don't exist for the practicality of anyone but themselves, because the "fans" want it fast and they want it now and they want it free. Maybe some fansub advocates have better intentions, but I simply don't trust the intentions of most as I've seen far too often that it's the free anime that draws most in.


Well ok, I'll take back the subbed release but you should get the idea, ultimately they'd just have to come out with releases sooner if they were to truely combat fansubs. Yeah, you're right, licensing is a complex system and yes, I too said fansubs existed for the individuals. I'm just trying to argue for what's best for the licensers to do given the situation, I'm not here to justify fansubs except that they do exist because people are selfish, pure and simple. Again, complex system it may be, but there's much room for improvement... all it takes is time, money, and effort, and I imagine it would be extremely possible in all actuality to have coinciding releases there and anywhere else. Eh, this argument though won't really do much though sadly, I don't intend to try and go into business... no idea about the rest of you.
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Magenta Syntax



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:31 am Reply with quote
Steve, it seems you have the "people are basically evil" philosophy. Can't trust 'em. "Just look at the D/L #'s - I must be right."

It doesn't have to be that way. People can change their behavior. One reason companies are reluctant to do anything differently is that they shouldn't have to. With education, such as that attempted here, one reader at a time, people learn that fansubs are not the free gift they once thought - see the articles I quoted?

You had trouble putting into words a system you could agree with, so for "I have no life" reasons, I put forth the effort. A place we could all start from; something that could work, if not for some big holes, without all the arm-waving.

Are you more informed about the negatives (refer to quoted articles) associated with:

--Getting all your Anime fix from fansubs (as opposed to the less heinous "if I come across a fansub, I'll check out the 1st ep to see if I might buy the show when the DVD comes out, even if I wait for a SALE or BOX SET or just rent the thing because (problem1, problem2.)?") ,
--Promoting fansubs to others?

Are you going to be more respectful of copyright in the future, and do less of the above two items?

Please say yes.
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:08 am Reply with quote
Peh, look, people aren't evil, neither are we good, we're rational believe it or not which at times can be which ever of the two you prefer to call it. I never said anything nearly as stupid as "just look at the D/L #'s - I must be right" but that you have to at least pay attention to it and that it will take something to change their mind. Honestly I don't think education alone can always help a situation. Sure the companies don't have to care, but they also don't have to care about their audience, advertisement, and product if they don't want to either. Of course people can change, but they'll do what they'll do, and I'm here to say it's good that you've thought of a way to help them not do it as much. You make me wonder if I'm really saying things that incorrectly state my stance but I don't see how. To answer your question, I will say I haven't downloaded fansubs for myself in quite awhile, and I'm going to buy an anime DVD set in just a bit.

Time will tell the future but things will still happen for the reasons they do no matter what I say or not, I was merely here to help guide this topic into an appropriate direction on how the behavior of people can actually be changed and we already went over that.
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Magenta Syntax



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 16
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:22 pm Reply with quote
People are generally rational, which is a good thing when I go to a store. I would guess 99% on average of the customers in any given store are rational and make purchases for goods and don’t shoplift. But larger stores seem to bet on evil, by tagging products and installing “stop thief!” sensors at the doors. (Most of the time it’s a false alarm because the tag didn’t get deactivated.) Stores that check receipts against purchases are treating everyone as a potential shoplifter.

As an aside, RFID tags are going to push this idea further and nearly eliminate the checkout line. If you have an account on file with a store, you could just pick up the stuff you want and leave, the sensors at the door properly charging you for everything.

Now, would you or I take advantage if those checks were not in place? Of course not; you’ve said as much several times:
Quote:
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:44 am it's undoubtable that doing something against someone else's intent is wrong
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:42 pm I'm thinking 9 out of 10 people at least would agree stealing a property from someone without their permission is wrong.
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:02 am Of course I agree it's wrong, I opened on the topic saying any form of misusing someone's property is wrong
Perhaps – we are both basically good? If you’re neither evil nor good, you are dangerously close to shoplifting anytime you don’t think you’ll get caught. Is that rational? Is that practical? Isn’t that just plain stupid?

Somehow, downloading from the internet seems different, because people have less expectation of getting caught. That’s just perception. I know you know it’s wrong by your statements. It’s OK to say that you and lots of other people “do wrong things” – but don’t whitewash or defend or convince yourself that it’s right, because it’s practical or rational.

Quote:
Steve007101 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:08 am I never said anything nearly as stupid as "just look at the D/L #'s - I must be right"
That’s how I interpreted what you said, it seemed like a short punchy summary:
Quote:
Steve007101 Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:02 am “…the reality is hundreds of thousands of people at least if not millions and more download fansubs. […] there were more people to sue then they could count. So I ask you, do you really think it'd be a practical idea?
You use the assertion that millions of downloads occur to justify the impracticality of taking legal action to stop it, and this supports your opinion that the Anime industry ought to figure out a way to join them instead of complaining about the problem. Let's mince words: You think it would be the practical thing to do. Anyone who agrees with you on this is agreeing that your idea must be "right" - even if you did not use the word "right," you are offering practicality as the rational, reasonable, right way to go.

"I will say I haven't downloaded fansubs for myself in quite awhile, and I'm going to buy an anime DVD set in just a bit."

Great! You would not have seemed quite as uncaring about the Anime industry if you had taken a breather and thought of including this in your arguments.

When many people start D/L’ing a show, some get so hooked in they start demanding more like it’s the good drugs. Be patient and wait for the drugs to get legalized. Mass downloaders should to take a step back, just be a fan, and spread the good word to friends with pictures and discussion, not torrent files. Leverage the Japanese studio websites more (where they are often putting up trailers) and find ways to let them know their future foreign markets are eager for some translated info about what they’re up to. And, of course, politely let the distributors in your region know that you've heard about show X and would like to see them pick it up.
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Magenta Syntax



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:31 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Steve007101 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:08 am You make me wonder if I'm really saying things that incorrectly state my stance but I don't see how.
Perhaps not “how” – but “where” makes more sense. Please take the rest of this book in the spirit of education. You quickly lost support because of this, and could also benefit from some tact. That’s not just an act of saying “yes sir, yes sir – you’re so right, I’m so completely wrong (grovel, grovel)” – though some of that helps; tactfulness, not responding to what you think is attack with more attack, thinking out how the other side will interpret your statements, and respect in the face of adversity is important strategy if you would like to regain someone’s attention.
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:44 am However, no matter what anyone cares or thinks, we live in a world where information is constantly going to be spread, whether its creators intended for it to be or not, to contain it at this point is really next to impossible, after all, society is everyday moving more toward individual freedom.
This is the classic "information wants to be free" argument. No, People want it to be free, the information is property and has no opinion. All people should respect property rights. It's only because some people don't respect or understand media property rights, that millions of dollars are being poured into DRM technologies, to lock up and meter out media in all its forms.

“The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, I can tell you for every person a fansub could turn away that would have been turned away to begin with they are matched or exceeded by the target audience becoming aware of it and then getting the actual release.”

You are stating a fact? Cite the study that backs this up. Use google. Yes, it takes time to research info, but if you find support for something you want to say, you gain credibility. Otherwise, start such sentences with "I believe."
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:44 am That it all comes down to is the companies in the end can't fight it, they have to trive in it, they're going to have to eventually make and promote their own form of fansubs if they want to truely protect their properties, get the most out of them, and discourage illegal distribution. Seriously, anyone else want to agree with that or not?
They can't fight it? Seems like they're doing more every day. (See my message-list of quoted articles again) And, as I stated about my thoughts toward a system of studio coordinated translation (no longer volunteer fan subs) and simultaneous releases - it would never happen because it destroys the licensors whom the studios have effective, trusted relationships with, and takes studios' focus away from what they do best: creating Anime.

It is not rational to place the responsibility for fixing a problem on the victim.
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:54 pm I mean I've said it enough already, that's exactly what they should be doing, promoting their own form of legal, profitable fansubs like what Napster has done as an example in the music industry. That is, if they want to care about it.
If anime companies don't do what you think best, they must not care about their industry or the success of their property. That's not rational. The companies have a financial responsibility to their shareholders and investors to drive towards success and protect their properties. If you have a well-thought idea that the companies who are not doing the “new Napster thing” just don’t want to hear, you can write down your business plan and seek investors of your own to start up a media powerhouse, and shame them all. I don’t say that facetiously: a few internet startups attracted millions of dollars in start up money based on ideas scribbled on the backs of napkins – it can still be done, but banks and venture capitalists are reading both sides of the napkin these days after a few bad turns, so be sure your punctuation is right.

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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:02 am If you really think fines on a few of their heads can change that, you don't know your recent history, don't you recall the napster fiasco
Wrong interpretation of the Napster fiasco. Napster didn’t volunteer to change, it did not surrender to pressure from groups of downloaders (fansub analogy) - it was morally and legally beaten into the ground, name bought by Roxio, and reborn as a new company in 2003.

Your additional point is that RIAA can’t sue everybody. True. But they don’t have to, to achieve results. To the contrary, the RIAA lawsuits of hundreds of people at a time cause a chilling effect, as friends tell friends what happened to the sued person. They’re still at it, a group of 750 were sued Feb 28 of this year. A list of downloaded songs and a demand for $3,750? Yikes! The cases can be fought in court, some are, some are dismissed, some folks quietly pay – but the chilling effect is out there. Even the “grandma who doesn’t have a computer” mistakes, which make us all laugh, work in the music industry’s favor, generating additional news coverage that illegal downloads are bad.

The RIAA’s pressure on the p2p networks is creating change in the music industry as more and more go legit (here’s just two:)

July 27, 2006 - Kazaa Settles with Record Industry and Goes Legitimate “…Kazaa has agreed to pay a substantial sum in compensation to the record companies…”

August 17, 2006 - BearShare Returns as Legal P2P Service “…agreed in May to pay $30 million to the RIAA to avoid a copyright infringement lawsuit”
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ryujin jakka Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:46 pm If more companys would step up and Prosocute the Fansubers, as well as the viewee's the Trend would stop quickely.
Steve007101 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:10 am Pardon my language but that's really a laugable conjecture, and uninformed. Seriously, do you really think it'd do much, and do you honestly think it'd be beneficial to them in the long wrong? The answer is definetly no. For the last time, they're going to have to work with fansubs pure and simple, we get what we want when it's easy, no matter if it's illegal or not.
Again, you state as fact things you don’t back up with evidence. Zac was all over your case for the "I'm so much smarter than you" irrationality in this rant. So you argued back at him, saying personally unhelpful things, like - you like to argue your opinion. Then, in admitted “arrogant time again,” instead of calmly explaining your view, you responded with additional unsupported opinions, stated as facts.

You shot yourself in the foot with your “value” counter-argument, saying that the world doesn’t run based on things that are valued by people, getting paid for. “You're assuming your opinion of "value" must mean they'd want to pay for it, the world doesn't work based on that.” Wow. And if that’s not what you meant, that is certainly what it looks like.

You lumped together morality & legality with practicality, then said people generally think only in practical terms, implying the Anime industry should get off its moral and legal high-horse and, like a Stockholm-syndrome kidnap victim might, surrender to practicality. That’s the crux of your opinion from start to finish.

It’s not debate to complain that no one’s responding to your opinion, then responding to a response that you think misses your point – by accusing the responder of being ridiculous and just plain wrong without backing up things you believe to be facts with some numbers and footnotes. The burden of proof is on you, as the one making the claims. You really want Zac on your side, if your ideas are as good as you think. But, what you have so far are complaints, not a plan. Large numbers of people including myself come to ANN to complain about some thing or other, it’s a common activity. So any given person’s observations have to be pretty well thought out to rise above the noise. (Reshaping an established industry all by yourself is a Herculean task.)

So Zac pushed you, you pushed him back – re-read this long post and work on building better thought-out sentences if you want next time to work out better. “And yeah you bet I overdue it, that's how I am when I argue lol” With age and a few slapdowns comes wisdom, or so they say. I got my share of D’s on English class essays – I thought I knew what I was saying, but my teachers saw a confusing mess and pointed it out.

If you respond as soon as you read a forum post, often you’re so wrapped up in the moment that you open yourself up for flames and more work down the road trying to straighten out people on what you REALLY meant. That’s clearly happened to you a few times in this forum. Arguing just because you like to argue is a selfish waste and is not appreciated; it's a great way to get ignored. So, if you're being ignored, re-read your last post and ask yourself if it looks like the same statement as a previous post, only louder. Read further back; maybe somebody else has said pretty much the same thing in different words. Think of a different approach, or just give up and spare yourself trouble.

"You make me wonder if I'm really saying things that incorrectly state my stance but I don't see how."

This is a hopeful sign. Here's a simple technique to improve your words: write in a separate program that has spell-check, go do something for a few hours, then come back and re-read what you have, thinking of ways you could be misunderstood. Revise, rewrite, copy/paste, post.

Quote:
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:01 pm Still, I'm just trying to get some attention, can I have at least a comment on my opinion, please?
Done.
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