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Madoka Magica: Rebellion US Premiere


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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:28 pm Reply with quote
So I've just finished watching the movie. And...damn. I don't know if I can say much that hasn't already been said.

But first, I love this movie's visuals. Surrealistic interpretations of the real world are some of my favorite things visually and this moie is basically nothing but that. It feels like "El Shaddai: Mahoushoujo style" and I love the shit out of it for that. I now feel pissed that I didn't see it in theaters, legit, I'm kicking myself for that.

Second: spoiler[I now have to admit that Homura is a lesbian. Love has got to be the only damm thing that drives someone to do shit this completely insane. Even so, this movie made me realize: Homura is a selfish, completely insane, psycho bitch. Just so Madoka wouldn't die, she went back in time endlessly only to fail, and then when Madoka making a wish turns out to be the best solution, Homura can't even handle that? Madoka has quite literally fixed nearly every flaw in the system, but Homura is just "YOU'RE NOT NEXT TO MEEEEEEEEE *loses it* and goes as far nearly destroying everything Madoka gave her life for, solely because she (Homu) is that madly in love with her. Bitch you crazy. Just...let her go, okay? I mean, I know you wont, but...come on, try!]

spoiler[And hell, it didn't even WORK in the end. Madoka was still all "something's off". Homura, at this point, you've tried HUNDREDS of times to fix things. THINGS GO BAD WHEN YOU TRY TO FIX THEM. STAHP. You're willing to force Magical Girls to suffer in despair AGAIN and become witches solely to bang Madoka? Priorities, woman!]

spoiler[So at this point it's obvious: in whatever the next part of the franchise will be, Homura's gonna be the villian. At this point she is so mad that nothing she'll do will be good.]


Now, moving on from that: spoiler[I seriously have no idea why Bebe is there. I love her, and she's an adorable loli (DOUJINS WHEN), but why was this one-specific witch allowed to resurface as a girl? Okay, so Homura put her with Mami in her Soul Gem's world, but WHY? She freaking KILLED Mami! Besides "the fans like putting them together", there's zero reason for that, and I don't Homura could break the fourth wall like that. Oh well, she's cute. Homura should've brought back another witch from the show if she could do that, I wanna see what they were like as girls, and they would've made good characters for the inevitable second season]

spoiler[Still not seeing the KyouSaya subtext, what they said while fighting was not that gay. I imagined two dudes saying that and even I couldn't wring subtext from it]

Overall...I liked it. Gonna buy the BD when it comes out.

Sorry for any typos, I'm typing on an Iphone here.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:17 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:

Now, moving on from that: spoiler[I seriously have no idea why Bebe is there. I love her, and she's an adorable loli (DOUJINS WHEN), but why was this one-specific witch allowed to resurface as a girl? Okay, so Homura put her with Mami in her Soul Gem's world, but WHY? She freaking KILLED Mami! Besides "the fans like putting them together", there's zero reason for that, and I don't Homura could break the fourth wall like that. Oh well, she's cute. Homura should've brought back another witch from the show if she could do that, I wanna see what they were like as girls, and they would've made good characters for the inevitable second season]


spoiler[Well, her inclusion makes sense plotwise. Even putting aside the Mamilotte stuff, if you wanted to include the Magical Girl form of one of the TV series witches, Charlotte is the obvious choice. She's the most iconic, most recognizable of all of them. Even more so than Oktavia probably.

As for why Homura put them together...well, actually on further thought I don't think she did? Or at least, Sayaka and Nagisa came in with Madoka, with an agenda of their own. Sayaka integrated herself more-or-less as normal, while Nagisa needed to stay undecover. Hence "Bebe".

As for why Mamilotte is a thing, well...hmm...I can direct you to a fanfic that explores it. If you are interested.]
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:56 pm Reply with quote
I know WHY Mamilotte is a thing--the comical absurdity of such an idea (plus spoiler[the fact that Charlotte was the first witch to do something really serious thus sticking in people's minds]) and having no one else to pair Mami with.

And if Nagisa came in by her own accord...I didn't catch that. I thought spoiler[Homura put everyone in that world herself].

...I'm gonna have to re-watch this aren't I?
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:08 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I know WHY Mamilotte is a thing--the comical absurdity of such an idea (plus spoiler[the fact that Charlotte was the first witch to do something really serious thus sticking in people's minds]) and having no one else to pair Mami with.

And if Nagisa came in by her own accord...I didn't catch that. I thought spoiler[Homura put everyone in that world herself].

...I'm gonna have to re-watch this aren't I?


You completely missed why Sayaka and Nagisa were there. This may be an issue with the fansub translation.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:13 pm Reply with quote
I was watching fansubs that seemed competent but maybe they were off, my moon isn't good enough to notice any problems in the subs.

That and I was watching this in a school library right next to a class that would not shut up, I could hear them through my headphones.
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7jaws7



Joined: 17 Aug 2013
Posts: 704
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:16 pm Reply with quote
As much as I loved the way the series ended - and I would have had no problem if it ended that way - this is a highly popular franchise, and it's going to continue as long as the story has something to offer. I don't dislike Rebellion, but considering that Homura is my favorite character, I definitely had mixed feelings after walking out of the theater.

spoiler[Now, about what Homura did.

I'm convinced that she pulled Godoka from her own universe out of love for Madoka - and the love of power. Somewhere in between. From the looks of it, Homura's been corrupted, with that devilish grin of hers. It would have been a happy ending if Homura had allowed Godoka to pull her from the depths of despair and be carried off into the Law of Cycles, and they would at last be together forever.

But it didn't work out that way. From The Dark Knight: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Homura has created a happy ending for everyone but herself (and the Kyubeys, but nobody likes them) and this is why I consider it a tragedy.

Even if it seems like she can't go back, I can only hope that Homura finds her own salvation someday, one that doesn't solely revolve around Madoka.]
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Foridin



Joined: 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:06 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I know WHY Mamilotte is a thing--the comical absurdity of such an idea (plus spoiler[the fact that Charlotte was the first witch to do something really serious thus sticking in people's minds]) and having no one else to pair Mami with.

And if Nagisa came in by her own accord...I didn't catch that. I thought spoiler[Homura put everyone in that world herself].

...I'm gonna have to re-watch this aren't I?


From what I got from watching it in a theatre, with what I assume was the official dub, was that Kyuubei allowed Homura to essentially subconsciously invite people who existed into the real world into her barrier. I think this is where Mami and Kyouko, as well as Kyosuke and Hitomi came from, as they are both alive in the Godoka world. Then, and I don't recall how this happened exactly, Madoka, acting as the Law of the Cycle, came in to save Homura. Since she knew the Incubators were trying to trap her, she also brought two people with her who had fallen into despair and been saved by Madoka, but somehow still had the ability to change into a witch. These two where Sayaka and Nagisa/Bebe, who to keep the Incubators from noticing Madoka, kept her memories of being Godoka. So, from what I understand, Homura created replicas of everyone who wasn't a Magical Girl/important character, (If you remember the scene where most characters had red splotches on their faces, anyone with a mark was a fake replica, I think.) and then brought in the characters who were alive, but wiped their memories and then Madoka brought in herself, along with Sayaka and Nagisa.

Edit: I really hope the Blu-Ray comes out soon, because as I was writing this post, I realized that I'm still confused by about half the stuff that occurred just in setting up the dream world, let alone the ending.
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kotomikun



Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 1205
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:31 pm Reply with quote
7jaws7 wrote:
spoiler[I'm convinced that she pulled Godoka from her own universe out of love for Madoka - and the love of power. Somewhere in between. From the looks of it, Homura's been corrupted, with that devilish grin of hers. It would have been a happy ending if Homura had allowed Godoka to pull her from the depths of despair and be carried off into the Law of Cycles, and they would at last be together forever.

But it didn't work out that way. From The Dark Knight: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Homura has created a happy ending for everyone but herself (and the Kyubeys, but nobody likes them) and this is why I consider it a tragedy.]


spoiler[I kinda feel like her campy evil persona is just an act--or maybe an expression of how awful Homura herself thinks her actions are.] We know from the series that she's quite experienced at pretending to be an unfeeling monster, but she seems to be second only to Madoka in her inability to actually do anything heinous (unless the victim is Kyubey...). Sayaka probably killed the "train misogynists," Kyoko tried to assassinate Sayaka for being a noob, Mami nearly slaughtered the entire cast just because they might become witches...Homura considered killng Sayaka when she was on the verge of witch-hood anyway, and that's about it.

spoiler[Post-usurping, Madoka's back to her safe, yet unfulfilling and perhaps even depressed life. Homura knows this isn't what Madoka wanted, though she probably doesn't understand why she preferred being God. Despite all the "I've finally captured Madoka, my true yandere love! Muhahahaha!" business, she doesn't brain-rewrite Madoka into loving her, or even force her to be happy. It seems like she thinks betraying and de-powering Madoka was terrible enough, so she can't bring herself to follow through on the logical continuation of her "evil" plan.

On the whole, I think it's at least a somewhat happy ending. Most things are back to the way they were at the beginning, except the Incubators are neutralized, witches still don't exist, and although Homura's gone back to being a pariah, she's not trapped in an endless cycle of failing to save Madoka anymore. But it's also ambiguous, since we don't know to what extent this new world is "real," or what's going to happen when Madokami reawakens.

And most of us probably won't think the ending is actually happy until Madohomu becomes official. Razz ]
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:50 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
And most of us probably won't think the ending is actually happy until Madohomu becomes official.


I don't think it could ever be official.

spoiler[Homura's a psychotic bitch who's willing to screw the whole world over just for Madoka. At the end of the movie she acts like a completely creepy stalker to Madoka (who is completely unaware of anything that has happened) and now Madoka probably thinks she should stay as far away from Homu as possible.

Homura is nuts. She's gone off the deep-end. She IS the antagonist now. I'm surprised so many people saw the ending as happy. Homura is literally willing to let magical girls suffer in despair and become witches solely to bang Madoka. She doesn't even care about Madoka's wishes, given that at the end she completely invalidated Madoka's wish for her own selfish gain.

Homura is a psychotic, selfish, and manipulative bitch. I love her as a character but she is not exactly a good guy.]
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:54 pm Reply with quote
Chagen, thats a tad overly reductive.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:59 pm Reply with quote
I don't see how.

spoiler[Madoka was just about to take Homura up to...heaven and then Homura was all NO BITCH YOU'RE MINE so she grabbed and by sheer force of spiral power will tore a piece of her godhood away and made herself into Satan before de-powering Madoka SOLELY to make her live in the real world because she wants to be with her that much.

You know, despite Madoka's whole wish being to make sure that she's there so Magical girls don't have to suffer.

Homura only cares about herself. And she's incredibly manipulative, her entire character is about going in the past to manipulate the future!]
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bglassbrook



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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Location: Gaithersburg, MD
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:27 pm Reply with quote
roseversailles wrote:
When (spoilers for the show) spoiler[Madoka becomes God/Kami, it is stated that she will have knowledge of all that has passed and all that will pass, or something to that effect. If so, did she know Homura would rebel? Did Madoka know that her efforts to prevent Homura's "descent" were ultimately futile? How would that affect the actions MadoKami took throughout the third film? I'm starting to figure out my theory on Homura's motivations, but for the life of me cannot figure out where Madoka falls on this scale in light of her omniscience as stated in the show).]

I would vote for copping out with the simplest solution of...
spoiler[1 - If the Incubator seal could prevent the Law of Cycles from eliminating witch-Homura it could prevent her sight.
2 - Madoka was momentarily distracted by re-syncing her parts once the seal started falling.
3 - Then *WHAMMO* a swift-right-turn at Albuquerque.

Though I'd be open to a theory of ambivalence on Godoka's part. It allows Madoka to sacrifice a part of herself to keep Homura from being a witch [for longer]... so mission accomplished, on to the next emergent-witch.]


Fencedude5609 wrote:
spoiler[As for why Homura put them together...well, actually on further thought I don't think she did? Or at least, Sayaka and Nagisa came in with Madoka, with an agenda of their own. Sayaka integrated herself more-or-less as normal, while Nagisa needed to stay undecover. Hence "Bebe".]

That's what I recall reading. The "pairing" was more Bebe's idea though.
kotomikun wrote:
spoiler[except the Incubators are neutralized,]

Not neutralized, though definitely taken down a few pegs. spoiler[Kyubey expects them to all be wiped out, given her feelings toward them, but instead she chooses to keep them around. The stated reason is to help maintain balance in her universe, but I wouldn't be surprised if the specifics of that arrangement is providing a punching bag/release valve for her personal anger.]
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Sly05



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:29 pm Reply with quote
That was a pretty good movie despite being for a franchise that already ended on a high note and didn't really need a sequel. I hadn't read any spoilers going in so spoiler[Homura going anti-Godoka came as a shock, especially as the movie was making us believe that she was going to be purified by Madoka and thus finally saved herself. I really liked how Homura put herself in Madoka's role as the classmate helping the transfer student in her new universe. It was a fantastic way of highlighting her current frame of mine. She wants to make Madoka need her as much as she needs Madoka and thus own her completely. Great scene.]

The weakest part of the movie was probably the early scenes. I found the new transformation sequences a bit underwhelming and the nursury rhyme style singing when they captured the first nightmare was so cutesy it was awkward. Those are fairly minor complaints though. I look forward to seeing at least one more movie or tv series out of the franchise.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2377
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:30 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I was watching fansubs that seemed competent but maybe they were off, my moon isn't good enough to notice any problems in the subs.


The only camrip fansubs out there are inaccurate at parts. I already had an argument with someone earlier about this, but one major thing the fansubs got wrong was spoiler[when Homura was talking to Sayaka at the end, she mentions that the Majuu/Wraiths from the end of the TV series still exist. Thus, the Law of Cycles is still going on. How? It's not exactly stated, though Homura now has Madoka's power and Sayaka hints that she has Madoka's duty as well. Thus, while Homura DOES disrespect Madoka's personal wishes for her own position in life (hence why she suggests they might not be able to come to a consensus and may be enemies someday), she seems to be respecting Madoka's wishes in saving Magical Girls from despair...
Unfortunately, the movie doesn't go into much depth as to how this affects the hope/despair balance in Madoka's supposed "paradise" or if she even does it as well as Madoka did.]


As for Nagisa, I'm going to have to agree. spoiler[She was sent by Madoka to infiltrate Homura's Soul Gem with her, but aside from that, she seemed to only be there for the sake of the fans. Nothing bad about that, but I do wish they had given us more to characterize her or develop her.]

But yeah. See? Most online reactions are quite split. The movie itself is a high-quality production and a spectacular visual piece, and the story and characters are still respected enough that it gets praise up to that point. It's mostly just the very ending that has it controversial. And with that, I don't blame anyone for being upset or confused, as it IS the most confusing and upsetting part of the movie. Personally, I found the ending a shocker, but still fitting. But I'm actually not going to completely judge it or analyze it in full detail until I figure out what's going on and can connect it to what's being described or shown to us in the movie itself. Then I can sort my own feelings out and see what worked and why it worked, as well as what DIDN'T work and why it didn't work.

If only it had ended just before the ending turning point... It was working so well and I would've walked out of that theater with a smile on my face... but nope. We can't go the easy way out, can we. Anime hyper
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Ilmari



Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 1
Location: Aurora, Colorado
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:12 am Reply with quote
Madoka Magica is the series that got me into anime in the first place, so I figured I had to share my thoughts on a few points on this board (long time reader, first time poster).

On it’s own terms, I thought it was a great movie – the actions scenes were appropriately epic, I actually liked the WTF moments like the cake song bit a lot (I look forward to seeing it again on Blu Ray), and although the new magical girl was kind of a wash and Kyoko didn’t really get to do as much as I would have liked I did enjoy the additional character work in the film.

However, as a conclusion to Madoka Magica I thought it was less than optimal for a few reasons, the two most important to me being:

[spoiler]1. The TV series ended with a stable new status quo. It was more than a little ambiguous, but I thought it was satisfactory enough to know that teams of magical girls were now fighting these ‘wraith’ entities with Kyuubey having a less deceptive relationship with them now that his kind didn’t need to hide the truth about witches to the girls making contracts with the. Rebellion ends with a completely untenable new status quo, one that starts fracturing pretty much the second it’s created. Yeah, Homura patches up the cracks with Madoka and Sayaka quickly enough, but I don’t think anyone is left with any doubt that this state of affairs can last (including Homura, and she pretty much says as much to Madoka).[/spoiler]

[spoiler]2. As others have said, I think the new version of Homura doesn’t make for a good antagonist in the way they fleshed her out in the ending. Now to give fair warning, Homura’s always been my favorite character in the series as a tragic hero – and I actually wouldn’t mind the ending being pretty much the same with her essentially nullifying Madoka’s wish in order to instill what Homura thinks is best for her loved one. However, I think she just comes across as too needlessly ‘evil’ and crazy in the current ending.

Specifically, here I’m thinking of when she goes to the trouble of creating idealized existences for the other magical girls, but apparently can’t resist causing them very minor upsets (pushes a teacup off a table as Mami is walking by, causing Kyoko to toss an apple into a stream). What exactly is her motivation for this again? Just to show that she’s ‘evil’? It goes a too far into the mustache-twirling level of pointless cruelty for it’s own sake, which I’m not fond of in antagonists. Again, if this was all so she could have Madoka for herself in her own world for eternity, that would be completely fine with me - but the writers just push her so far into the supervillain category it’s almost comical – as also evidenced by her speech to Sayaka where she goes out of her way to antagonize her (and says she might destroy the world). It all just kind of reminds me of this, ‘I’m Evil!’ joke from the Justice League cartoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyYOuuRmQp0 [/spoiler]

It might just be me, but I much preferred the antagonists in the TV series, in part specifically because they broke the usual convention of being blatantly evil for its own sake. The witches are practically forces of nature in that they embody despair (and other negative emotions – they don’t really seem to have enough of a consciousness to really be ‘evil’), and Kyubey’s people were arguably very deceptive but all their actions had very concrete and logical motivations leading towards quantifiable goals for the benefit of their kind. Having an antagonist that’s just essentially a crazy super villain seems like a step back for the series in this regard.

Now yes, if this is all set up for an actual conclusion – hopefully a final one – then I’m perfectly happy with this as an incomplete part of a series. But for now, as much as I liked the movie on its own terms, it doesn’t seem like an appropriate conclusion at all for these characters. As much as I hate to say it, I do have to agree with others who have stated that it seems a bit too much like sequel bait for my comfort.

I look forward to hearing you out if you agree or disagree with me on these points, and if you want to debate me on any one of them I’m certainly interested in what you have to say.
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