Forum - View topicMadoka Magica: Rebellion US Premiere
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kotomikun
Posts: 1205 |
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No, that's...the opposite of true. She devotes her entire existence to Madoka, spoiler[attempts to put herself in an eternal Hell to save Madoka in Rebellion, and even when she acquires the means and (supposed) desire to possess her, she basically rejects herself. And she brings everyone else back to life, even Nagisa, for whom you can't use the excuse "oh, she just did that to keep Madoka happy" because Madoka didn't originally know she existed. But Homura doesn't make much of an effort to make herself happy.] The irony of Homura is that even though she's somewhat selfish and gives in to said selfishness rather dramatically in this movie, the person she cares least about is herself. The same is true of Madoka, in a different way. She wants to be a benevolent protector who helps people out but lets them fight their own battles, while Homura wants to be the powerful hero who protects the weak. Both of these things are shown to have downsides: spoiler[Madoka's ideal is naive, exploitable, and does little to change the status quo, while Homura's goal can lead her straight into over-the-top villainy for the sake of "protecting" someone who didn't want or need her protection.] spoiler[Homura only considered sacrificing herself when she was literally drowning in despair and there seemed to be no other viable option. This is probably why she assumes Madoka's sacrifice at the end of the series was tragic, even though Madoka thought it was an ideal ending; and this misunderstanding contributed to the main tragic aspect of Rebellion's ending.] |
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Animerican14
 Posts: 963 Location: Saint Louis, MO |
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EDIT: I started writing this several posts ago and came back to this a few hours later, so some of the following may be redundant)
See, even though you've seen the movie now, there are still at least a couple things you're getting wrong here, as you are still the apparently-rough subs from the cam-rips. I'm sure the thing about spoiler["Homura is literally willing to let magical girls suffer in despair and become witches" ] is off, because I don't believe witches have been confirmed to be around in this new world anymore. Rather, there are still wraiths (not witches) around, which I remember the official subs stating. (Juno016 beat me to the punch on this correction.) Then the part of Homura spoiler[going against Madoka's wishes "solely to bang Madoka"], even if just hyperbole, is too crass. Also, spoiler[did she necessarily even want Madoka around by the point she came back from America? She didn't look particularly thrilled at her arrival as an exchange student (maybe Homura didn't want her to come back to Mitakihara and potentially disrupt her new order?) and when skimming a posting of one person who has gone to *ridiculous* lengths in recounting the film by giving a 10-part "summary", they phrased her reaction as such as well ]. In fact, she looked rather ill for much of the conclusion. I think kotomikun has a great point in saying that spoiler[“Homura doesn't make much of an effort to make herself happy”]! Since talk of yuri subtext has been reawakened a wee bit recently (a topic that was really given too much discussion at the beginning of this thread), I think that it'd be worth considering what the voice actresses have had had to say regarding the relationship between Homura and Madoka, or at least what they considered the relationship to be by the time they did the audio commentaries during the series. (When they knew nothing of the movie, mind you) Specifically during episode 10, Saito and Aoi Yuuki have a conversation about the ending/farewell scene and their affirmation of the bond they shared. Starting from about 19:31 minutes into the commentary, courtesy of the translation/distribution work of tri4.net and Aegisub…
They also reiterate the same point re: the lack of ren-ai when talking with Urobuchi during episode 12. However, with Rebellion, spoiler[ there appears to be a sharper tilt/gear-shift towards ren-ai, albeit of an awfully one-sided nature on Homura’s part. There is definitely an impression of her thinking, as Chiwa said of a romantic love-infused departure, "Return her to me!", and that impression is made no louder than when she pulls on Ultimate Madoka’s hand as she tries to cleanse her soul gem] Yet then again, spoiler[maybe it was more of a possessive and protective but-not-so-romantic love that took priority in Homura’s heart—she had a reasonable concern of the Incubators trying to come after Ultimate Madoka once again, and as I previously noted, she didn’t seem particularly happy when seeing Madoka back in Mitakihara.] However it is, I find the relationship quite interesting. I’d really like to see if and how their seiyuu’s perspective on the Homura/Madoka relationship has developed with what “Rebellion” has brought to the table. |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2381 |
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Actually, I think it was quite clear that spoiler[her gaze was more like that of someone who is in control of the situation, like a queen. She knows what's going to happen because she made it happen, and she's just overlooking it. The entire Universe is now her barrier, after all. When Madoka "transferred" back into her class, that absolutely had to be Homura's doing. If Homura had shipped Madoka off to America, that would have pushed Madoka out of her sight again. And that's the last thing she wants, considering she only has menial control over Madoka right now. Notice she also made Madoka her childhood friend. That lets them have a connection from the start, so Madoka doesn't has as many excuses to avoid her. Besides, I think the only thing Homura's really capable of doing to other people is re-writing their memories, just like she did in her barrier within her Soul Gem. So she probably can't actually ship Madoka off to America for three years. She just re-wrote everyone's memories so that they believed Madoka was gone for three years. Thus, Madoka never went to America, but she's being placed into the role of transfer student so that Homura can be the one who shows her around as her "guide" and protects her, just as she wished long ago. And on that note, I wonder why she made it three years in Madoka's memory. When Homura replies in confirmation that three years have passed, is the fact that three years have passed in Madoka's memory not that important... or can we assume that she made the time they spent apart in the new universe match the time they spent apart in reality? It would seem weird if this were not the case, since they spelled out the specific time frame exactly and Homura replies so seriously.] |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I assumed (altho I admit that I could be wrong) spoiler[that that was the amount of time that Homura was in the hospital ORIGINALLY, since Madoka's introduction mirrors hers pretty much exactly except for reversing the roles. Even making herself "nurse's aide".] |
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Juno016
Posts: 2381 |
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spoiler[That still doesn't explain why Homura replied so seriously to her comment, though. Homura had been at a missionary school, but she transferred hospitals and was now at Mitakihara, too. She was in the hospital for a while, but it couldn't have been three years in the hospital or she would've been placed in a class full of people younger than her (this is also the case in Japan when someone must miss school for an extended period of time). In Madoka's case, it wasn't that Madoka was new to the area. She had lived in Mitakihara and only went to America for three years before coming back, which would easily parallel her going away at the end of the series and coming back for the movie.] |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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spoiler[Unless you want to say it was a joke "shout-out" to the TV series, I don't see how they match. I mean, SOMEONE should be older if 3 YEARS have passed, shouldn't they? Hitomi at least should be out of MIDDLE school (if you want to say the magical girls don't age) if it's been three YEARS! She should be 17 and nearing HIGH school graduation. Also, I'd say its entirely believeable that Homura had tutors while in the hospital, but we don't know for certain how long she was there or what happened prior to her (Homura) going to the school.] edit: spoiler[That actually raises an interesting philosophical question. One could argue that Homura's fate happens because she's no longer a magical GIRL. Yes, physically Homura is 14, but we don't know how many iterations she cycled through, it is entirely possible that MENTALLY Homura is in her 20s. One of the reasons the whole "magical girl" system originally worked is because magical GIRLS are full of hope and optimism, which beomes cynicism and despair as they "see reality" (aka: "grow up"). One could argue that Homura is a WOMAN in a girl's body making for a really weird exception to the magical girl system.] |
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Animerican14
Posts: 963 Location: Saint Louis, MO |
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I think I noticed the spoiler["queen-like" cool expression in that scene the first time around as well-- she appeared to maintain composure-- but she still seemed sort of out of it. The circles under her eyes (there were circles, weren't there?) and her general expression didn't convey anything happy or joyful to me, anyway... maybe that was just visual language to help convey that she has gone 'to the dark side,' demonstrating that even a face of 'contentment' looks different on her than it would on a normal person?] spoiler[I didn't remember the childhood friend part at all, though. Thanks for the reminder! That definitely backs up the point that she wanted to keep Madoka within her sights. ] Perhaps I would've realized that when looking up various information about Rebellion after I saw the movie, but ever since you talked about how you've seen a good number of untrue statements on the PMWiki and observations stemming from a viewing of the cam-rip subs, I've largely kept myself away. (If I want to revisit specific parts of the film to clear up personal misunderstandings on my own, I guess I ought to at least give it a couple more weeks, huh?
Huh, I somehow thought spoiler[ that Homura had become a bit more powerful than that. Doesn't it seem like she has some control over familiars that everyone else can't see (or can they see them?), as shown when Homura took away Kyoko's apple? And doesn't it seem like she has some control over the Incubators now, as well? But if rewriting memory has become her only "real" capability, then just how far could they have gone? Could that have been enough to influence Madoka's family to "move back" to Mitakihara, since they were shown at the end moving around and unpacking boxes from the "move?" Geeze, I'm getting confused all over again about Homura's role and powers as an "Akuma." :P ]
I kind of thought this, too, that it'd be weird if the three year gap was supposed to refer to the end of the series. (It might be a bit more plausible if spoiler[the bodies of magical girls don't age, given that the souls aren't bound in them anymore. But has that idea been given credence? We at least know that, as scarily confirmed by a scenario from the PSP game, the bodies of magical girls decompose is isolated from their soul gem/magic. And then there's still Hitomi...) I don't remember Homura being particularly serious when it came to the three years statement, either.] Interesting if she really was, though. |
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kotomikun
Posts: 1205 |
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At first, maybe, but the scene where spoiler[Madoka almost regains her powers gave the strongest impression that she regrets what she's done, probably because it showed her that the real Madoka with whom she shares real memories is now farther away than ever. But she still steps in to stop Madoka's transformation, because she expects that Madoka will hate her once she remembers what Homura did to her and the world. Though, knowing Madoka, this fear is probably unfounded...] As for whether HomuraXMadoka is "ren-ai" or platonic love, it seems to me that Ultimate Madoka is romantically in love with Homura (blatant red ribbon/string of fate symbolism), but regular Madoka is not. Homura probably wasn't in love with Madoka, or didn't know she was, until spoiler[some point between now and the end of the series. She seems to get over her separation from Madoka at first, but at this point things are...different. Absence makes the heart grow more obsessive? The part of Madoka that Homura wants--the powerless girl she can watch over--isn't the part that loves her back. And Homura doesn't really get this, because Madoka told her she loves her only as much as she loves everyone else...while having none of her Madokami memories. And Madokami's whatever-it-is for Homura isn't possessive or selfish, so it may not seem like love to Homura...it's a real mess.] |
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Juno016
Posts: 2381 |
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Hmm... spoiler[the box unpacking in Madoka's house at the end... Yeah. A lot of questions are still unanswered. I can't necessarily clarify that Homura's powers are really that great. I just assumed that, as she seems to be the one re-writing Sayaka's memories (or was she the one to do that?). And I can't see her going above and beyond to actually move Madoka back from America with her family if all she needed to do was re-write her memories. I didn't really understand the apple thing at the end, either.
But I do think Homura's attitude at the end, when Madoka was introduced, was just that. The kind of evil-esc content of someone who watches over things. Or maybe not necessarily "content," but out of "necessity." And later, when Madoka almost reverted, I don't think she was regretting what she did. I think she simply was surprised over Madoka's near transformation back into Ultimate Madoka, and her scared look and tears afterward were her way of establishing and coming to terms with their potential future relationship as enemies. At that point, she's probably saying that she doesn't expect to have total control over Madoka forever or something like that. She's just holding off the inevitable while she still can. She doesn't really regret her actions so much as she comes to terms with them as "necessary evils," explaining why she non-nonchalantly labels herself "evil," despite her good intentions. I, too, believe Madoka won't necessarily consider them enemies in the future, though. Rather than naive, Madoka seems more open-minded and will probably understand and consider Homura's stance, trying to help her out, even if she still ends up fighting her in the end. Oh, and Ultimate Madoka called her "my best friend" at the end of the series. The Japanese, "saikou no tomodachi," specifically refers to being the best kind of friend one could be, rather than just being that ONE best friend--which makes sense, considering they never actually grew up together, but Madoka finally knew all that Homura had done for her and knew it was out of some form of love. It's not a "lover" term at all, as "tomodachi" explicitly refers to a friend. Homura's "love," or "ai," in the movie is more ambiguous, though. In overall terms, "ai" is more heavily romance, but it can still refer the feelings one has towards family and close friends, of which we know she considers Madoka the closest, regardless of the truth behind her fascination. Either way, she definitely has taken it a step further than she ever did before, finally disregarding Madoka's own wishes so that she can selfishly protect her, instead of trusting her to protect herself. Not surprising, considering the conniving method the incubators thought up to try and capture her and control her. It did seem Madoka had control over that situation anyway, but Homura didn't seem willing to take any chances. By the way, did anyone else take the part of Homura's reluctance to be saved by Madoka right before they finally broke the barrier around her Soul Gem to be her cry of, "Don't save me! Otherwise, I'm not going to be able to stop myself from taking you down with me!" ...? That's not necessarily what she meant, but considering that part made me cry and I was still recovering from it by the time Ultimate Madoka descended to take her back with her... it connected like that in my head.] lol So many black lines... And on the topic of the ribbon exchange at the end of the series, that was actually a reference to Nanoha, the spiritual predecessor to Madoka, which was also directed by Shinbo. |
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AnimenexuS
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Meaning of Dokes http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dokes
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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I am amazed at the amount of Homura apologism here.
spoiler[Trapping your friend a world, going against her wish, and forcibly repressing her previous memories while using your near-godlike powers to control her life? How the hell is that "devoting her existence to Madoka?" Homu wants to control every aspect of her life and basically views her as this "trophy" she must keep guarded at all costs, hell even she feels like shit about it at the end of the movie. Madoka's feelings are irrelevant at this point, Homura just wants to control her.]
spoiler[ By the end of the movie, having gained a massive advantage and a whole new host of power, she's clearly switched lanes to the "control Madoka at all costs" side.] A lot of people want to view Homura as some good character for some weird reason. In my eyes she's a completely nuts bitch who's so driven mad by love she'll do insane things. Her goal was noble in the beginning, but at this point she's basically lost it. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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This was my interpretation too and I'm surprised people can see it any other way. The ending is very bitter. |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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Zac, its a little unclear who you intended to quote, since thats not something Chagen said.
Edit: Also wow Chagen you really suck at nuance. Homura's a tragic figure, thats the entire point. |
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Juno016
Posts: 2381 |
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I understand why Chagen is saying what he is. After all, Homura spoiler[pulled a really crazy stunt and her mannerisms at the end of the film are all signs of insanity, like smiling at misfortune, looking happy to be "evil," acting almost like a queen as she controls things going on, and that look on her face as she tries to regain control of Madoka. She most definitely has given up at least a fraction of her sanity, justified or not.]
Still, one part about your argument falls a bit flat:
spoiler[Except she says at the end that she'll do whatever she has to do to make sure Madoka is happy, even if it means they'll become enemies. She certainly disrespected Madoka's wishes and self-selected happiness to get to this point, but I think she's trying to find a way that both her and Madoka can be happy in the world of the living, along with everything and everyone they hold dear. And as of right now, she's gone past the point of sanity to do that, but she still has that goal in mind, so it's very possible that she and her actions can still be redeemed in time.] |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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To me it was clearly spoiler[more of the "welp now everything's opposite land!" thing the movie was doing for the entire last 20 minutes or so, with Madoka representing the ideal of love - IE giving everything of yourself to the person/people you love - and now Homura representing the opposite, wanting one person to give you everything to make you feel loved/happy/fulfilled. It's the twisted, screwed-up, possessive and controlling opposite to what Madoka represented.] Like I said, super bitter. |
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