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Cowboy Cadenza wrote:

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I'm almost positive that every single person who was seen the first 50+ episodes of Bleach subbed, did not like the voices one bit.

Wrong.

That's really all I have to say, actually.

Edit, I actually have one more thing to say:

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I didn't read the whole thing

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I dunno the point to this post but I just thought your "Bleachatard" made you sound like a tard yourself and completely kept me from taking you seriously

What exactly were you unable to take seriously? You said yourself you didn't read anything but the intro...

Sorry, I'm a jerk...

Okay what I meant at first was that; "More than likely, almost positive, the majority of the people, if not all, the people who have seen 50+ subbed Bleach episodes hated the English dub during this promo." My wording just came out wrong. I know this cause I like the dub, and many posts in that thread I mentioned said the same thing.

I whent ahead and read your rant, and I have to say I agree with most of the majority of it. I know a guy who said that the dub was horrible, and he said he hadn't even seen/heard it.... how the hell does that work? I literally walked away from him cause it just wasn't worth my time.

I couldn't take you serious at first because of the "Bleachatard" comment. You came off as a Narutard which are people I absolutely despize. Not that I like Bleach so much as to get offended by that word, but just felt like the rant was going to be a waste of time, and to be honest, it was the one I agree with the most of the ones I've read.

I liked the rant about the Bleach dub. Granted I haven't really seen the original to compare, but being a fan of One Piece myself, to me, I find a whole new appreciation of dubs because of this.

It's easier to see how much thought and care that's put into dubs like Bleach and Naruto (IE there's people who really CARE), compared to the "Painful to the ears, not giving a damn" One Piece dub.

It's really hard to put into words WHY the OP dub is so bad without sounding like any other dub hater ("but THIS show is so special...")

The thing you have to remember is it's not JUST about the voices. The music can make a DAMN big difference. Not only taking out a quality soundtrack, but putting in music that's only 2 or three notes and sounds repetetive.

You also have to consider script. Not every little literal translated word. But the overall flow of dialog and if matches the original character.

Also consider, that there'll ALWAYS be a difference in script. Yeah we'll like how a fansub translates a line or two here that we love, but the OFFICIAL product has something different. GET OVER IT! At least you'll get your fully uncut Anime with subtitles. As Mr Answerman himself says (which I totally agree with), you can't call yourself a fan of said anime, if you don't go out and buy legit DVDs.

And yes I know this stems from a disgruntled OP fan. But let me give you a RL example. I work at the grocery store. I see so many new hires that are teens who will ALWAYS complain about the job "It's hard work", "It's boring", "I don't like doing this", "I'd rather be out with my friends". All saying this while being paid good money, not realizing the obvious alternative as well as sometimes, even if the job you have isn't the one you necessarily want, it's good to have a great boss and great people to work with, not realizing it could be MUCH MUCH worse.

If that doesn't make sense, although I'm hoping it does, then I'm just too tired to form a coherent thought right now.

Amazing. Just amazing. Truer words have never been spoken.

Zac wrote:

It has something to do with the inherent problem that 99 percent of the people complaining about whatever English dub they come across don't speak Japanese on any level that would qualify them to judge the Japanese voices in any fashion.

So it's just a blind preference to whatever version you saw first rather than a legitimate love for a performance you can sincerely appreciate. It isn't really about understanding or appreciating the nuances and differences of the Japanese language, it's about claiming superiority because you saw it in Japanese first.

People who don't give dubs any sort of fair shake are deluding themselves into some bizarro superiority complex. A bad dub is a bad dub, but I'll be damned if the people who endlessly rip on any dub they come across know anything at all about performance or speak one whit of competent Japanese.

I actually enjoy dubs better because I feel like actually hearing the characters without having to read has more of an emotional impact. Not saying everyone else is wrong but just a matter of preference that makes my anime viewing experience better.

Bad example and probably get called on it but would we all still remember; "Luke, I am your father" if the original language was Japanese and we read the subs? That scene of Vader actually saying it runs through my mind everytime I hear that quote.

Zac wrote:

luhead wrote:

Why do people who like dubs get so mad at those who don't? If you think dub haters are idiots, ignore them. All this constant whining from both sides of the argument is just getting annoying as hell.

It has something to do with the inherent problem that 99 percent of the people complaining about whatever English dub they come across don't speak Japanese on any level that would qualify them to judge the Japanese voices in any fashion.

So it's just a blind preference to whatever version you saw first rather than a legitimate love for a performance you can sincerely appreciate. It isn't really about understanding or appreciating the nuances and differences of the Japanese language, it's about claiming superiority because you saw it in Japanese first.

People who don't give dubs any sort of fair shake are deluding themselves into some bizarro superiority complex. A bad dub is a bad dub, but I'll be damned if the people who endlessly rip on any dub they come across know anything at all about performance or speak one whit of competent Japanese.

Actually, I strongly disagree on part of it. I can't speak for others, so I'll speak only on my own behalf. I'm not fluent in Japanese, but I'm getting there; occasionally I'll watch a raw before I watch the original if it's not a psychological anime (my vocab is still far from capable of those kind of verbose conversations. Yes it's true, GitS is a bit beyond me still) and I rarely miss much now. Though if you asked me to write what I heard, that might be a different story...

I truly prefer the way Japanese sounds as a spoken language, the rhythm and cadence of the language makes me prefer it inherently to English, but even more importantly the effort of the seiyuu is something else. I'm not going to say that voice acting here in the states is all bad, as there are some voice actors that have some amazing range and talent, just look at Seth Macfarlane. I don't follow seiyuu, Japanese or otherwise, but the effort that the seiyuu put into their jobs is far more than most American anime voice actors seem to do.

There are some dubs I really like, but the competition within the field here in the states leads to some rather shoddy work if you ask me. It's not always an issue of which I've heard first, sometimes I watch the dub first sometimes the sub, I try to mix it up once in a while. Out of the probably 30 or 40 dubs I saw first, I can probably count on one hand the number that I prefer over the sub. On the other hand, I've probably seen about 100 subs first, and I'm sure you can imagine how many of those I preferred the dub for.

The issue if you ask me, is that Japanese has an inherent advantage in anime. The motion of the characters and their lips and facial expressions are tailored to Japanese. They are obviously designed to express whatever was the intended wording and emotions that fit the Japanese script. When translated, it is forced to try and adapt to the restrictions placed upon it by the original. Considering this, I'm surprised people can be as offended as they are that people prefer the original as opposed to the adaptation. It is "just" a TV show, but I fail to see any reason people can't be attached to a TV show they like any more or less than their favorite book or poem. Calling one "art", one "literature", and one "entertainment" just seems like pointless segregation, all works wish to be appreciated and loved (/sigh, I guess not all of them... but I think you see what I mean), they're just different mediums.

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I don't understand the obsession with literal translations. It's become a new anime pet peeve of mine. Why people want them to use the phrase Death God or Shinigami when we don't use the phrase death god boggles my mind. (On a side note I have noticed the Japanese use the word god more loosely them we do. Frequently the word God in Japanese would be better translated as something like master) Translating something does not mean taking the exact words and changing them into English. It includes translating the MEANING into English as well.

Well... I'm gonna say no. I'm not one to advocate an exactly "literal" translation, as obviously it would make no sense, the grammer would be terrible just as the meaning would be jibberish. However, there are times when the closest translation is the most accurate, and shinigami is one of them. I haven't heard the dub, so obviously I can't pass judgement on how it sounds, but if they translated shinigami as "soul reaper", they better give a damned good reason to change it. It's not quite as bad as changing the title of a show from the catchy and poetic sounding "The One Being Sung" to the three most overused and cliche sounding words in the entertainment industry (not to mention being extremely misleading): "Shadow Warrior Chronicles"; but it's pretty bad. What it comes down to is this: shinigami translates literally to "death god", the characters in the show act like a death god, so why choose a less accurate (and frankly cheesy sounding if you ask me) phrase to describe what can be described better by the more literal and obvious translation? Why go out of your way to change something just so it sounds "cool"?

Maybe I just don't like it because I don't like stuff like that. I hate it when shows are predictable and that's not the point, I hate things like "Shadow Warrior Chronicles", I hate it when the hero loses to their nemesis and is spared for seemingly no reason other than to make their next meeting more ominous (only for the same thing to inevitably happen again), I hate hoaky stuff and I hate cheesy stuff. If nothing else, I would advocate them using "death god" if only because it's the common translation and it's what fansubbers used, then again, I wouldn't put it past them to simply have chose something as cheesy as soul reaper with the sole intent to stir up controversy and draw attention to the show (which I also would not condone).

Most people I talk to don't wish for a literal translation of words, but of meaning and context. There are a number of anime that I've seen where the english dub changed only a few words, but it completely changes the context and flow of the scene. The mannerisms in anime are a big draw to a lot of people, myself included, so to watch these mannerisms be changed for apparently no reason other than to be different and put their own "creative" twist on it, leaves me disappointed.

The term "Death God" never made a lot of sense to me, and I have been following the fansubs for a while now. To me, a god of death is a supernateral being that either kills the living and/or controls the dead. The members of Soul Society exist to protect earth-bound spirits from Hollows (another odd term in English), and to help those spirits cross over to, or become part of, Soul Society, i.e. "reap" them. They don't control death or the dead, and no one worships them, so I don't see how they fit the Western definition of gods.
If the Eastern, or Japanese, idea of a god is significantly different than the Western, or American, idea, then a literal translation can actually be misleading. Imo, this is a classic example of cultural differences making a literal translation the wrong choice.

selenta wrote:

I'm not going to say that voice acting here in the states is all bad, as there are some voice actors that have some amazing range and talent, just look at Seth Macfarlane. I don't follow seiyuu, Japanese or otherwise, but the effort that the seiyuu put into their jobs is far more than most American anime voice actors seem to do.

Where do I even begin with this? I don't even know where to begin here.

This is one of the most willfully ignorant and arrogant things I've ever read. It's like you're proud of not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

selenta wrote:

However, there are times when the closest translation is the most accurate, and shinigami is one of them. I haven't heard the dub, so obviously I can't pass judgement on how it sounds, but if they translated shinigami as "soul reaper", they better give a damned good reason to change it.

Soul Reaper is what is used in the English manga and is apparently also the term that the series creator uses to translate Shinigami into English. So, no they didn't change it, they merely used the official English translation which I think happens to sound better and has a more accurate connotation than Death God anyway.

I think Japanese is a beautiful language, but so is English. It's just easier to overlook the beauty of spoken English if you're fluent in it since, you know, you're paying attention to the meaning instead of how things sound.

And I agree with Zac, saying that "I'm not going to say that voice acting here in the states is all bad" is about the most condescending thing you could say. Threw away most of your credibility with that one line.

Personally, I think most of the serious complaining about the Bleach dub is being done by people who want to justify to themselves to keep watching the Bleach fansubs instead of giving the creators their due and actually supporting the show by watching it on AS and buying the DVDs.

i agree that purists do complain alot when dub is made available on DVD....

one thing that I don't understand is that how those complainers think that fansub is the most accurate translation available....

the fansubbers do as a hobby...few years studying Japanese do not automatically make them experts in translating/grammar/cultural reference, ect....

I watch fansubs to get the feel of the series but once DVD is available in the States, I buy them to support the company who does excellent work translating, subtitling and dubbing...

Herb hit it right on the nail when he said the purists have no idea on acting and language study...

personally, i do prefer some series on English dubbing instead of Japanese....Evangelion is one that comes to mind...i have yet to watch the whole series in Japanese...i thought that was one of the best dubbing that was done years ago and still holds true to this day...Full Metal Panic series have some of the best actors working and I'm glad that Kadokawa was able to get original actors from ADV to voice again....another series that I'm starting to watch from beginning, Fullmetal Alchemist, has also excellent English dubbing...i can feel the emotions through the characters' voice in each line...I have yet to hear the original Japanese but I might do that once I finish the series and some time has been passed....

and Herb didn't call people who prefer original Japanese idiots...he called idiots who hated dubbing just because it was dubbed....

Answerman wrote:

They have to stagger the release appropriately so American audiences aren't waiting so long to get new volumes. It's got nothing to do with "milking the property" (can we please stop with this lazy cynicism where every single company in the world releasing anything is always trying to "screw the fans"? Making money is not an evil pursuit, and not everything they do is designed to irritate the fanbase), it's a simple matter of the logistics of releasing an ongoing series.

It's a decision that places making money ahead of satisfying the fan, and I don't have to like that. They could translate and release all the volumes at once, then pay off the bookstores to keep them on the shelves longer. Wanting your manga now, not when they think it's best to release it, is not an evil pursuit either.

Herb wrote:

To the anime zealots, the Japanese version of an anime is holy gospel, not just a TV show, and you just don't tamper with Holy Writ. They've completely lost sight of the fact that anime is commercial entertainment and not a religion.

That is a matter of opinion. A cynic would say that most religions are themselves a form of commercial entertainment. I would say that anime definitely has some religious aspects. Most pertinent is this: if you have a long, undubbed, unaired anime with grandiose themes, the fans of that anime automatically gain an understood cameraderie with each other. Each one has done the work of hunting down copies, each has sat there and read the subtitles, and each has had to deal with those untranslatable words and concepts. (Aside: just because something can't be translated doesn't mean it can't be understood; part of becoming a religious-style fan is learning those concepts.) Each one understands each other. Then comes the dub, and claiming the title of fan now requires no more effort than the pushing of a remote button. A fan of an unreleased show must care about that show enough to care about its themes, its characterization, its structural consistency. A fan of a translated show can be a fan because he thinks the fighting is cool or because he wants to see under the female characters' skirts. Is it really so hard to understand the contempt of the former toward the latter?

Part of the joy of being part of any group is in exclusion. Those who are not part of the group don't know the customs, can't understand the argot, and are not welcome. Dubs throw open the temples to the infidels. They say, "Come in and be recognized as worthy, even though you have done nothing to earn it."

It's also worth noting that many anime concern just this level of exclusivity: you have the team of main characters and being part of that team creates a bond that those outside the team cannot have. From fighting shows like Naruto to school shows like Genshiken, it's all about being part of something private. So it should be said to the interlopers, either walk the path the others have tread, or suffer in your inferiority while the fans enjoy their fandom unsullied. Such people should be rebuked, not given a free pass to membership.

When you join the rest of us in the real world and think like an actual person, please let me know so I can continue to avoid you like the plague.

Steventheeunuch wrote:

When you join the rest of us in the real world and think like an actual person, please let me know so I can continue to avoid you like the plague.

You see? Exclusivity! You're part of a group you like to call "actual people" and you don't want to let me in the group until I start thinking like you. Replace "real" with "anime" and "actual person" with "otaku," and it's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you, Steventhe, thank you.

Steroid wrote:

Steventheeunuch wrote:

When you join the rest of us in the real world and think like an actual person, please let me know so I can continue to avoid you like the plague.

You see? Exclusivity! You're part of a group you like to call "actual people" and you don't want to let me in the group until I start thinking like you. Replace "real" with "anime" and "actual person" with "otaku," and it's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you, Steventhe, thank you.

Your theory of anime as religion doesn't seem to account for evangelism. How is Our Lady of Anime to gain converts if not from the more casual dub viewer?

Is it just me, or who cares?? If you don't like the dub, buy the DVD's and watch it with Japanese audio and subtitles. I've never understood why bad dubs get under people's skin when there is a superior alternative to it on the DVD already. If you prefer to listen to dubs, go for it, I could care less, but why complain if you don't like it when there is always an alternative. Either that or just don't watch it at all.

That rant about the Bleachatards is true in every single way. Those people need to shut up and realize that anime is entertainment.

sokpupet wrote:

"I hate Toonami and Adult Swim, they ruin every anime they show." Some girl said that in my store not that long ago, and I just couldn't wrap my head around it. Apparently the proliferation of anime in the states is a horrible thing. At least that's what it seems like when people needlessly rip into dubs.

I know this one girl who says that AS skipped the first episode of FMA. I told her they've shown it a dozen times and she says otherwise. Probably because she hangs out with a guy who says they're making a new season of Inuyasha where "Inuyasha marries Kagome and Miroku and Sango f**k." Rolling Eyes

Idiots.

Strategos wrote:

Is it just me, or who cares?? If you don't like the dub, buy the DVD's and watch it with Japanese audio and subtitles. I've never understood why bad dubs get under people's skin when there is a superior alternative to it on the DVD already. If you prefer to listen to dubs, go for it, I could care less, but why complain if you don't like it when there is always an alternative. Either that or just don't watch it at all.

If you took out the word "superior," I would've agreed with you.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks that particular chapter of Hellsing was one of the awesomest things ever drawn on paper. I actually have a figure of Seras inspired by that scene.

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