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GAME: Final Fantasy XIII: Lightning Returns


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Jen Bigby



Joined: 20 May 2013
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:43 am Reply with quote
CrownKlown wrote:
Metacritic compiles the reviews of multiple sources, generally the most well known ones, so they are not cherry picking, and gives you a fairly reasonable assessment of where the game really stands.


If you ignore the fact Metacritic weighs some sites more than others, admits to changing scores for the sake of their own personal tastes, and the fact there exists paid reviews and other politics with numbers, then I guess it's 'fairly reasonable'. Confused

Reviews are meaningless. I don't see why people still bother with them. So many companies have been caught and admitted to paying and bribing people over the years you'd think the average gamer would stop clinging to their words so much. Just play the game and decide for yourself. You miss out on potentially enjoyable games if you just mindlessly agree with some random reviewer who says they didn't like it without trying it yourself Smile I'd have missed out on Tales of Vesperia if I listened to Destructoid's review calling it stale and boring, and I loved it. I see a lot of slut shaming going on in some Lightning Returns reviews which is kinda.. yeah. Not going to listen to any guys who think they can tell women how to dress and really it just makes me want to play those kinda games to spite them.
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daveriley



Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 117
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:57 am Reply with quote
Ignoring your ole internet saw of "reviews are bought and paid for" to focus on the more important point: it is a gross misappropriation of the term "slut shaming" to apply it to a fictional character, in a game made largely by men, who exists largely for the purpose of acting as a paper doll for a mostly-male audience to play dress-up with. I mean, this is the game whose pre-release coverage included over-eager developers borderline drooling over how they'd increased Lightning's cup size.

It's complicated, and there are blurred lines, but ultimately Lightning is not a person, she's a character. Denigrating a person for dressing up as Lightning does in the game is a problem; discussing how Lightning dresses in the game, how those clothes reflect the viewpoint of the developers and the audience, and whether these clothes empower Lightning or they're meant for cheap audience thrills at the cost of her character is not slut shaming.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:01 am Reply with quote
Jen Bigby wrote:
I don't see why people still bother with them. So many companies have been caught and admitted to paying and bribing people over the years you'd think the average gamer would stop clinging to their words so much.


Please give me at least 3 examples where companies were actually caught bribing game reviewers.

People like you throw this out there like it's 100% fact but the only example anyone ever points to is Jeff Gerstmann being ousted from Gamespot due to his bosses being horrible and caving to advertiser pressure. None of the people responsible for that fiasco still work there.

Somehow this one incident turned into "every review is bought and paid for, countless companies have been caught bribing game critics". It's a completely self-serving notion that "gamers" cling to because it invalidates any opinion written that isn't their own. Super annoying. You are effectively lying.
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Gamescook



Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:12 am Reply with quote
daveriley wrote:
Ignoring your ole internet saw of "reviews are bought and paid for" to focus on the more important point: it is a gross misappropriation of the term "slut shaming" to apply it to a fictional character, in a game made largely by men, who exists largely for the purpose of acting as a paper doll for a mostly-male audience to play dress-up with. I mean, this is the game whose pre-release coverage included over-eager developers borderline drooling over how they'd increased Lightning's cup size.

It's complicated, and there are blurred lines, but ultimately Lightning is not a person, she's a character. Denigrating a person for dressing up as Lightning does in the game is a problem; discussing how Lightning dresses in the game, how those clothes reflect the viewpoint of the developers and the audience, and whether these clothes empower Lightning or they're meant for cheap audience thrills at the cost of her character is not slut shaming.

Just wanted to say I like your post.
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Mister Ryan Andrews



Joined: 28 Jan 2014
Posts: 219
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:09 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Please give me at least 3 examples where companies were actually caught bribing game reviewers.

People like you throw this out there like it's 100% fact but the only example anyone ever points to is Jeff Gerstmann being ousted from Gamespot due to his bosses being horrible and caving to advertiser pressure. None of the people responsible for that fiasco still work there.

Somehow this one incident turned into "every review is bought and paid for, countless companies have been caught bribing game critics". It's a completely self-serving notion that "gamers" cling to because it invalidates any opinion written that isn't their own. Super annoying. You are effectively lying.


EA and Microsoft are doing it right now with Xbox One around the web and paying for positive reviews and publicity from Machina partners on YouTube. I mean, I always knew those kinds of Let's Play YouTubers were mostly staged and fake to begin with, but yeah, it's just kind of proof of it now that they have come forward and went 'Yeah, we were paid to praise it and hype these games/systems' and saying how common practice it is. I wonder if that's why JonTron left GameGrumps with seeing how commercialized GameGrumps have becomed shortly after he left.

As a general rule I take any site/review that also has advertisements plastered all over it with a grain of salt. Same way when I see game reviewers being hired to play/voice characters in games. That kind of stuff just sends a very big conflict of interest flag up to me.

Though I'm not sure how many are 'paid reviews' and how many are 'hype reviews'. I'm kinda surprised Gamespot went back and lowered the score of Bioshock Infinite to a 4/10 after the hype died down. I remember when it first came out anyone who said anything negative about it got called out as just doing it to be contrarian. Wonder how many reviewers just give good scores to games in fear of fan backlash.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:12 pm Reply with quote
Mister Ryan Andrews wrote:


EA and Microsoft are doing it right now with Xbox One around the web and paying for positive reviews and publicity from Machina partners on YouTube. I mean, I always knew those kinds of Let's Play YouTubers were mostly staged and fake to begin with, but yeah, it's just kind of proof of it now that they have come forward and went 'Yeah, we were paid to praise it and hype these games/systems' and saying how common practice it is. I wonder if that's why JonTron left GameGrumps with seeing how commercialized GameGrumps have becomed shortly after he left.


Youtube "reviewers" aren't the same as traditional games press. What Youtube reviewers will accept from game companies and how far they'll compromise their shows has been a heated topic of discussion among traditional games press for a while now.

Quote:

As a general rule I take any site/review that also has advertisements plastered all over it with a grain of salt. Same way when I see game reviewers being hired to play/voice characters in games. That kind of stuff just sends a very big conflict of interest flag up to me.


How many times has that actually happened, where someone who reviews games for a living had a speaking role in a game? How many times has it happened where you had probable cause to suddenly suspect all reviews of being bought and paid for because the person who had the speaking role then also actually wrote the review?

It's one thing to say "I think games journalists are too chummy with the companies that produce the product they review" but these accusations and nearly-blind cynicism and skepticism need to be based on evidence and reason, not "feelings" or confirmation bias based on vague non-examples and stuff you read on NeoGAF.

Quote:

Though I'm not sure how many are 'paid reviews' and how many are 'hype reviews'. I'm kinda surprised Gamespot went back and lowered the score of Bioshock Infinite to a 4/10 after the hype died down. I remember when it first came out anyone who said anything negative about it got called out as just doing it to be contrarian. Wonder how many reviewers just give good scores to games in fear of fan backlash.


I didn't think this sounded right so I went and looked at Gamespot. What you're talking about is a second review of Bioshock Infinite clearly marked "SECOND TAKE" that says in a disclaimer at the beginning that it's designed to offer an alternative perspective to the original published review, which is linked to at the top and called "THE GAMESPOT FEATURED REVIEW". They didn't "go back and change the score".

So my question is, did you deliberately misinterpret or misrepresent that situation just to further your point? Did you not see all those disclaimers and labels of "SECOND TAKE"? Did you not understand that they weren't changing the original score, which was a 9?

Stuff like this, willful misrepresentation, attempts to make everything look like it backs up unrelenting cynicism even when it clearly does not, is why I always push back against the "ALL REVIEWS ARE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR" crowd. There's no real evidence anyone points to - it's all vague half-truths, rumors, "feelings" and stuff that's been accepted as truth among the internet forum crowd not because there's any evidence to back it up, but because they want to believe it.
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daveriley



Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 117
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:24 pm Reply with quote
As Zac says, citing Youtubers as your only concrete evidence of collusion is hardly a smoking gun, given that the way Youtubers operate has basically nothing in common with professional sites. I can't imagine there's more than a handful of Youtubers with any actual editorial oversight.
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:51 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:


How many times has it happened where you had probable cause to suddenly suspect all reviews of being bought and paid for because the person who had the speaking role then also actually wrote the review?



If he's talking about the guy I think he is, that critic has explicitly stated he won't be reviewing the games he's acting in. Not that that will stop people from assuming otherwise, though.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:13 pm Reply with quote
My stance on Video game websites is to find people you can trust, go to their reviews and check them out. Destructoid, and Jim Sterling are the ones I use. Metacritic is useless for anything other than proving whether or not critics liked a game in internet arguments.

The two websites I would stay away from are Polygon because of people like Ben Kuchera and Arthur Gies and Kotaku (then again I would just flat out stay away from every Gawker website)

The only game review site I know who jut flat out changes their scores is Polygon with their SimCity debacle were they changed the score 4 times because of people not being able to play it. Arthur Gies also changed his Battlefield 4 review from a 7.5 to a 4.

My main problem with video game press is stuff like click bait articles (something that's a problem with websites in general but the Gawker network in particular is horrible at it) Kotaku once based an entire article on tweets Hideki Kamiya made and then titled it "Kamiya is clueless about PC and Valve". Of course this is also the website that once called Sword Art Online "the smartest anime I have seen in years" http://kotaku.com/sword-art-online-is-the-smartest-anime-i-ve-seen-in-yea-5947171. The second half review is also full of hyperbole like "Best plot twist ever".
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Mister Ryan Andrews



Joined: 28 Jan 2014
Posts: 219
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:16 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
How many times has that actually happened, where someone who reviews games for a living had a speaking role in a game? How many times has it happened where you had probable cause to suddenly suspect all reviews of being bought and paid for because the person who had the speaking role then also [i]actually wrote the review


It's the matter that, as you say, journalists are becoming very chummy with the companies. The fact companies are hiring press and journalists in the first place that is the problem. Just because that specific person may not be writing the review does not change the issue that that person is still affiliated with that site or company, and someone there is going to report on that game. Which then asks why the game company was so intent on hiring them to begin with? The impartial third party line has been crossed at that stage.

Quote:
So my question is, did you deliberately misinterpret or misrepresent that situation just to further your point? Did you not see all those disclaimers and labels of "SECOND TAKE"? Did you not understand that they weren't changing the original score, which was a 9?


'New score', then. The point remains that months after the hype died down, the luster was loss and it was now acceptable to not like the game. Or maybe it just means the people writing them are sucked into the hype machine easily and should wait a year before giving their thoughts to anything, but obviously that's not an option for that kind of job.

Quote:
There's no real evidence anyone points to - it's all vague half-truths, rumors, "feelings" and stuff that's been accepted as truth among the internet forum crowd not because there's any evidence to back it up, but because they want to believe it.


Didn't you list your own with the GameSpot incident? Does that not count? What about the Robert Florence/Geoff Keighley thing? He got fired over that and the article was edited and then the Tweets he cited had since been deleted. Generally when people go back and start deleting their own Tweets/posting history after they got called out on something is a sign they did something they probably shouldn't have and are now trying to save face.

daveriley wrote:
As Zac says, citing Youtubers as your only concrete evidence of collusion is hardly a smoking gun, given that the way Youtubers operate has basically nothing in common with professional sites. I can't imagine there's more than a handful of Youtubers with any actual editorial oversight.


What constitutes a 'professional reviewer' these days? Is this like my parents who insist Netflix is not a 'real video service' because it's streaming and not a physical Blockbuster store they can go to? We're at the point where YouTubers have more viewers than gaming magazines, and even dwarf gaming site hits in certain cases. Like it or not, it's the reality we live in now. Writing those people off as not real journalists when they have all the perks and responsibilities of journalists sounds like we're stuck at the cusp of letting go of the mindset that 'journalists write things down, not talk about stuff on a webcam'.
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