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Randomfart



Joined: 02 Mar 2014
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:16 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
Pointing out the literal mountain of problems in Mahouka's writing is being "unintelligent" now? Disagreeing with you does not mean I'm stupid. I never called YOU stupid for disagreeing with me, so you are really not making yourself look good in the slightest.

Mahouka is not written well by any standard of good writing. Now, it's okay to like awful stuff (heaven knows I do) but please admit that it is awful. Besides the racism, the MC is hilariously overpowered, the books exist solely to circlejerk about how amazing he is, the story abuses infodumps (something any sane writer tries to avoid as much as possible), and any interest the reader can gleam is quickly snuffed out because there's almost no actual conflict.

Why should I care about Tatsuya? He is so powerful, so broken, so loved by everyone that he never actually experiences any conflict. Of course you're not supposed to care about Tatsuya, because he isn't a character so much as a vehicle for the reader to self-insert into and vicariously live through.

Mahouka fails as a story because there is no incentive to keep reading. The plot is perfectly predictable and every situation will be solved with no trouble by the hero. Reading it is pointless, because suspense is almost nonexistent.

And yes, I did read it. It bored me so much I stopped. Doesn't help that like most LNs the writing was completely dry and devoid of any voice, description, or imagery.

(and don't tell me "it gets better", any series which takes several books to get better has already failed. You should already be hooking the reader within the first half of the first book at least and even then that's going slow)


Then, most likely your tendency of liking awful stuff, is why you're whining.
The main thing is though that this "mountain of problems" exists just in your head (in more ways than one). It sounds like you've read a summary of the series and aren't able to put things into context.

In addition to your post being basically completely factually incorrect, your only problem is with 1 character in the series and that's really only personal taste, it makes you look unreasonable and obsessed. I wonder if you really can't see it.
MKnR isn't your shounen battle manga in which everything is solved by violence or 'power levels' anyway so making a deal out of that is silly in the first place, Tatsuya is continually surrounded by conflict, whether physical in nature or not.
It'll be harder for you to prove that the character isn't a conflicted and complicated one than it is for me to prove it.

And I'll take that bet about MKnR anime. I'm willing to bet real money that it'll be one of the top 3 most successful anime this year. We can exchange paypal info via PM if you want to.
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Instinctz



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:22 pm Reply with quote
Chagen i would like to point out that from what i see the majority of your issue is that the author does not spend a lot of time explaining the landscape and surroundings (ala Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, etc).

news flash: welcome to light novels. it is meant to be short enough and interesting enough to keep the intended audiences attention on what is important (the teenager demographic) thus it focuses on the storyline, the fights, and the magic, at the expense of the surrounding world. though it does into great detail on HOW the magic works.

if this was focused more towards adults i am sure that the author would have focused on developing the lay of the land too.

i would also like to point out that the only issue you truly appear to have (Besides worldbuilding issues, which most light novels have) is that the MC is a Gary Stu. you haven't been able to point out other issues. so while i think yes, in some ways it will be a super hyped show like Sword Art Online, the only issue people will really have with it, compared to SAO's multitudes, is that hte MC is super strong.
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Prunus Trick



Joined: 03 Mar 2014
Posts: 24
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Randomfart wrote:
And I'll take that bet about MKnR anime. I'm willing to bet real money that it'll be one of the top 3 most successful anime this year. We can exchange paypal info via PM if you want to.


Not necessarily. There’s the possibility, but it all depends on how well they manage to translate this very difficult to adapt material. Or rather, how they want to translate this into anime. The series already has a lot of fans, but those fans like the lengthy exposition and explanations, both of which you can’t really do in anime form. It will be rather watered down, so I expect it to be a quite different experience from the books and current fans might not like that. Or I’m just overthinking things.

Anyway, Top3 really is a stretch no matter how well it is received, don’t go expecting SAO numbers, I’m thinking more along the lines of Index, maybe a bit above that. LN sales of Mahouka are kinda similar to what Index had pre-adaptation.
SAO is literally a genderbent Twilight, it’s twilight for teenage boys, and that’s why it had this incredible main stream appeal. I really hope they don’t turn Mahouka into another version of that, because it just isn’t.

Instinctz wrote:
news flash: welcome to light novels.


Yeah, that’s what I wrote as well. He probably hasn’t even read a single light novel besides Mahouka. He’s grasping at straws because, you know, he wants to fit in. There really is a ton of people hating on Mahouka. They’ve heard that it’s kinda similar to SAO, wherever that rumour came from, and since hating on SAO is cool, hating on Mahouka will be, too. And here they’ve got the chance to be the first ones to hate it, before it even aired! Just look at all those hipster points!
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Instinctz



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Prunus Trick wrote:
Randomfart wrote:
And I'll take that bet about MKnR anime. I'm willing to bet real money that it'll be one of the top 3 most successful anime this year. We can exchange paypal info via PM if you want to.


Not necessarily. There’s the possibility, but it all depends on how well they manage to translate this very difficult to adapt material. Or rather, how they want to translate this into anime. The series already has a lot of fans, but those fans like the lengthy exposition and explanations, both of which you can’t really do in anime form. It will be rather watered down, so I expect it to be a quite different experience from the books and current fans might not like that. Or I’m just overthinking things.

Anyway, Top3 really is a stretch no matter how well it is received, don’t go expecting SAO numbers, I’m thinking more along the lines of Index, maybe a bit above that. LN sales of Mahouka are kinda similar to what Index had pre-adaptation.
SAO is literally a genderbent Twilight, it’s twilight for teenage boys, and that’s why it had this incredible main stream appeal. I really hope they don’t turn Mahouka into another version of that, because it just isn’t.

Instinctz wrote:
news flash: welcome to light novels.


Yeah, that’s what I wrote as well. He probably hasn’t even read a single light novel besides Mahouka. He’s grasping at straws because, you know, he wants to fit in. There really is a ton of people hating on Mahouka. They’ve heard that it’s kinda similar to SAO, wherever that rumour came from, and since hating on SAO is cool, hating on Mahouka will be, too. And here they’ve got the chance to be the first ones to hate it, before it even aired! Just look at all those hipster points!


honestly, i am one of the people who believes SAO has numerous issues (Because, frankly, it does) but the author of MKnR did a great job of sidestepping many of the issues that SAO had. i think it will turn out okay, so long as madhouse finds a solid way to handle the info dumps.
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Prunus Trick



Joined: 03 Mar 2014
Posts: 24
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:44 pm Reply with quote
Instinctz wrote:
so long as madhouse finds a solid way to handle the info dumps.


They have to go for some sort of middle ground, there’s just no way they can keep all the monologues and explanations. Really, I’m probably the biggest fan of them, but even I think that would suck in anime form. I don’t want to listen to a narrator explaining magic for 10 minutes with the other 10 minutes being split into 3 for dialogue, 1 for plot and 6 for monologues.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:41 pm Reply with quote
Prunus Trick wrote:

Yeah, that’s what I wrote as well. He probably hasn’t even read a single light novel besides Mahouka. He’s grasping at straws because, you know, he wants to fit in. There really is a ton of people hating on Mahouka. They’ve heard that it’s kinda similar to SAO, wherever that rumour came from, and since hating on SAO is cool, hating on Mahouka will be, too. And here they’ve got the chance to be the first ones to hate it, before it even aired! Just look at all those hipster points!


I have read several LNs, such as Spice and Wolf and Haruhi (I liked the former but not the latter mainly because the title character was a complete shithead). I also read VNs, which are written in similar ways.

And I KNEW you'd pull the "EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE IT IS JUST TRYING TO FIT IN" card that every fan of this thing pulls. Hating on SAO wasn't done because it was "cool", it was done because SAO is a bad novel and the anime was bad. The same will happen with Mahouka. You're just trying to deflect any criticism because you love it that much. Going "NU UH YOU JUST WANNA BE A HIPSTER" doesn't automatically invalidate everything your opponent said.

Quote:
MKnR isn't your shounen battle manga in which everything is solved by violence or 'power levels' anyway so making a deal out of that is silly in the first place, Tatsuya is continually surrounded by conflict, whether physical in nature or not.


Conflict != actual physical battle

You clearly don't know what conflict is, because it's not just fighting. Conflict is ANY struggle MC goes through, and is one of the basic building blocks of a story. Even slice-of-life shows have conflict in each episode.

Quote:
I quickly get bored of authors describing landscape and character visuals too much. I couldn’t care less about that stuff, but I don’t go around telling people that what they like is bad writing.


Congratulations, you missed the entire point of writing and prose. The entire POINT of writing is using language to describe and vividly detail events so the reader can imagine them.

In the first chapter of Mahouka's first book, an event is going in a school. We are given almost NOTHING on the setting, almost nothing on the event. People are supposedly doing stuff, but we receive almost no info on it. This is basic Creative Writing 101. Show, don't tell, holy god why do I even have to explain this. This is not a matter of "what someone likes". This is objective and basic stuff about writing.

Oy vey, this is what our video-addicted generation has come to, they can't even appreciate the written word.


Quote:
You just don’t like light novels in general, it seems. It does not abuse infodumps, light novels are a medium that quite often focuses on nerdy and lengthy explanations of the things the novel is about. Spice and Wolf has “infodumps“ about economy, Log Horizon about MMO mechanics, Mahouka about the modern world and magic. You’re free to dislike these novels, but they’re not ‘bad writing’, if anything your horizon is just too limited for them. Nothing to be embarrassed about! I only really understood some of the more complicated explanations in Mahouka at the second time reading it, and it’s probably much worse with no knowledge about particle physics and the concept of carrier particles. It is however VERY embarrassing to call a book badly written that you just don’t understand. Wink


As amazing as this may seem, incredibly smarmy digs at my supposed lack of intelligence only make you look incredibly insecure. This has to be one of the most passive-aggressive posts I have ever seen on ANN.

Excessive info-dumping is terrible writing. Info-dumps in and of themselves are not bad, and several series do it MUCH better than Mahouka ever did. Haruhi had a ton of info-dumps, but they were frequently conversations interspersed with Kyon's charming wit. Mahouka just grinds the story to a halt and dumps completely useless information onto us. Half of the shit in Mahouka's infodumps is ultimately pointless for the plot. They are literally the author mentally masturbating for several pages.

And I am saying this as someone who plays Tabletop RPGs, where incredibly detailed worlds are the norm. But Exalted, D&D, Warhammer 40K, etc. never bogged themselves down with utterly pointless minutiae. Exalted never spent 4 pages describing how Essence worked, or how Sidereals could predict the future, or how Alchemicals ran, or how the bodies of Getimians work now that they have thousands of divine spiders living in their spines with a working model of Loom of Fate inside as well. Because that stuff doesn't matter
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Instinctz



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:47 pm Reply with quote
chagen, if you didn't even notice to this point, the entire point of the novels looks like a writers attempts to make the magic explainable. thus the infodumps. instead of it simply being point and shoot.
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jojothepunisher



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 799
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:59 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
My [expletive] god /a/ was right, Mahouka fans are a whole new level of delusional.

I like how you two have not done anything besides overwrought hand-wringing "STOP CRITICIZING THE BOOKS GOD" and have only served to further prove my point by falling over yourselves to defend the god-awful writing inherent to this waste of ink.

Why are you defending it with all of your lives? Is it because you self-insert that much into it? Do you view my criticisms as literal attacks to your own selves?

Why are you defending this book like it's your child?

I don't know why you are still responding to these people. I mean seriously, we all know Tatsuya is not overpowered, especially when he single handedly took down the entire branch of Blanche in Japan without so much as lifting a finger. God, how can you not see that?
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:11 pm Reply with quote
From what I'm reading in this thread, I don't think I'll like this one. So I will be skipping it.
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Prunus Trick



Joined: 03 Mar 2014
Posts: 24
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:30 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:
I have read several LNs, such as Spice and Wolf and Haruhi


Ok, so 2 LNs it is, and only the most popular ones at that. Still pathetic.

Chagen46 wrote:
And I KNEW you'd pull the "EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE IT IS JUST TRYING TO FIT IN" card that every fan of this thing pulls. Hating on SAO wasn't done because it was "cool", it was done because SAO is a bad novel and the anime was bad.


It is bad (but the bad thing it does, it does rather well), and I agree on that, but there are many bad anime and even more that are even worse. Hating on it is primarily popular because the anime is popular, there’s no denying that fact.

Chagen46 wrote:
Going "NU UH YOU JUST WANNA BE A HIPSTER" doesn't automatically invalidate everything your opponent said.


Yeah, it doesn‘t, but everything else I wrote did.

Chagen46 wrote:
Congratulations, you missed the entire point of writing and prose. The entire POINT of writing is using language to describe and vividly detail events so the reader can imagine them.


Not necessarily (there is a ton of fiction with other purposes, but again, your horizon is severely limited), but even then, for imagining things I don’t need it explained to the last detail. To this day my favourite book is “Let The Right One In”, because it does not use excessive landscape descriptions to visualise the atmosphere, it makes your brain do the work. It’s the best example of “head cinema“ I’ve ever seen, it might not work for everybody, but it sure works for me, it gives me the perfect feeling of a depressing Swedish winter. Without many descriptions on how the town looks like. Because it just isn’t important to the story and the atmosphere, just like the grass on the school yard is the most uninteresting thing to Mahouka. Everything that significantly differs from our current time and technology gets leeengthy descriptions though, such as public transport, magic, economy, political system and technology in general. Complaining that Mahouka, Explaining – The Light Novel, doesn’t contain enough explanations, is an absolutely ridiculous claim.

Chagen46 wrote:
In the first chapter of Mahouka's first book, an event is going in a school. We are given almost NOTHING on the setting, almost nothing on the event. People are supposedly doing stuff, but we receive almost no info on it.


And why should we? That’s boring. Mahouka does explain everything that warrants explaining, a normal school opening ceremony doesn’t. Mahouka explains that it’s normal, and that’s it, anything more would be boring and besides the point, because I as the reader already know it.
But thanks for sharing your opinions on “Creative Writing 101”, now I know that I don’t even want to touch anything written by you with a 10 ft pole.

Chagen46 wrote:
This is not a matter of "what someone likes". This is objective and basic stuff about writing.


Except that the only objective thing here is how you’re objectively wrong.

Chagen46 wrote:
This has to be one of the most passive-aggressive posts I have ever seen on ANN.


Thanks, that’s exactly what I was going for.
Also I’d like to note that you never made any attempt to prove me wrong on this point – you obviously don’t know anything about particle physics and don’t seem to have “a thing” for technology and SciFi in general. No real surprise then that Mahouka isn’t the book for you.

Chagen46 wrote:
Excessive info-dumping is terrible writing. Info-dumps in and of themselves are not bad, and several series do it MUCH better than Mahouka ever did. Haruhi had a ton of info-dumps, but they were frequently conversations interspersed with Kyon's charming wit.


Ok, so you actually state here that infodumps are, in fact, not terrible writing, contradicting yourself and what you claimed in all previous posts. Yes my friend, many LNs have infodumps, so does Haruhi, and it depends on whether they’re done well, not on whether they exist or not, like you previously claimed. Nice back-pedalling on that. Also nice: You accuse us of a short attention span because we don’t like lengthy descriptions of the environment, yet right after that you argue how long descriptions are bad. Highly interesting.

Much of Mahouka’s (important) explanations are done in dialogues as well, and you knew if you actually read past the first chapter. The monologues as well are always well integrated into the plot line in that they not only give insight into what is explained but also the character explaining it. In the end this comes down to preference I guess, but one can wonder if you’ve even read enough of Mahouka to properly judge your own preference or if you’ve just skimmed pages to find things to hate on.

Chagen46 wrote:
Mahouka just grinds the story to a halt and dumps completely useless information onto us. Half of the shit in Mahouka's infodumps is ultimately pointless for the plot.


No, it’s not. It always gives the world and the characters depth. The point of LNs such as Mahouka is primarily world building, and it does a pretty damn good job at that. You’re just not interested in SciFi world building, I think everyone understood that by now. Your fault lies in your assumption that something is bad writing because you don’t like it, because, trust me, from a SciFi point of view the writing is incredible, the world building is spot on and combines science and magic in a way never done before.

Chagen46 wrote:
Because that stuff doesn't matter


It does in Science Fiction.

And like Instinctz said, the point of the novels is explaining. You don’t like it. Big deal. No one blames you on that. Just stop calling things you don’t like and don’t understand bad writing.


jojothepunisher wrote:
I don't know why you are still responding to these people. I mean seriously, we all know Tatsuya is not overpowered, especially when he single handedly took down the entire branch of Blanche in Japan without so much as lifting a finger. God, how can you not see that?


I never claimed Tatsuya isn’t overpowered. It just doesn’t equal bad writing, or things like Gurren Lagann would be the most horrible pieces of fiction ever produced. If I may remind you, Simon took out the ultimate big bad in not only one entire universe with a punch of his fist armed with nothing but manliness at the end of the movie.
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Instinctz



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 58
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:36 pm Reply with quote
jojothepunisher wrote:
Chagen46 wrote:
My [expletive] god /a/ was right, Mahouka fans are a whole new level of delusional.

I like how you two have not done anything besides overwrought hand-wringing "STOP CRITICIZING THE BOOKS GOD" and have only served to further prove my point by falling over yourselves to defend the god-awful writing inherent to this waste of ink.

Why are you defending it with all of your lives? Is it because you self-insert that much into it? Do you view my criticisms as literal attacks to your own selves?

Why are you defending this book like it's your child?

I don't know why you are still responding to these people. I mean seriously, we all know Tatsuya is not overpowered, especially when he single handedly took down the entire branch of Blanche in Japan without so much as lifting a finger. God, how can you not see that?


i never said he wasn't overpowered, i just said that he isn't faultless, he has his weaknesses. and in all fairness, it was stated that katsuto, miyuki, mayumi, and mari all could have done what he did as well. so it isn't like he is the only OP one in the series.


Last edited by Instinctz on Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Randomfart



Joined: 02 Mar 2014
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:37 pm Reply with quote
Chagen46 wrote:

I have read several LNs, such as Spice and Wolf and Haruhi (I liked the former but not the latter mainly because the title character was a complete shithead). I also read VNs, which are written in similar ways.

And I KNEW you'd pull the "EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE IT IS JUST TRYING TO FIT IN" card that every fan of this thing pulls. Hating on SAO wasn't done because it was "cool", it was done because SAO is a bad novel and the anime was bad. The same will happen with Mahouka. You're just trying to deflect any criticism because you love it that much. Going "NU UH YOU JUST WANNA BE A HIPSTER" doesn't automatically invalidate everything your opponent said.


You're right. You're actually doing several things that contribute to it.

Quote:
Quote:
MKnR isn't your shounen battle manga in which everything is solved by violence or 'power levels' anyway so making a deal out of that is silly in the first place, Tatsuya is continually surrounded by conflict, whether physical in nature or not.


Conflict != actual physical battle

You clearly don't know what conflict is, because it's not just fighting. Conflict is ANY struggle MC goes through, and is one of the basic building blocks of a story. Even slice-of-life shows have conflict in each episode.


This is why you're getting laughed at. Read the quote again.

Quote:
Quote:
I quickly get bored of authors describing landscape and character visuals too much. I couldn’t care less about that stuff, but I don’t go around telling people that what they like is bad writing.


Congratulations, you missed the entire point of writing and prose. The entire POINT of writing is using language to describe and vividly detail events so the reader can imagine them.

In the first chapter of Mahouka's first book, an event is going in a school. We are given almost NOTHING on the setting, almost nothing on the event. People are supposedly doing stuff, but we receive almost no info on it. This is basic Creative Writing 101. Show, don't tell, holy god why do I even have to explain this. This is not a matter of "what someone likes". This is objective and basic stuff about writing.


This "objective and basic stuff about writing" is seemingly flying right over your head. Did you know that there are different types of writing and prose? Yours is a beyond words stupid assessment of the subject. Tell me now, is 'machine gun prose' used for the same effect than 'poetry' is?
Even if we're talking about strictly Light Novel literature, you're completely off.

Quote:
As amazing as this may seem, incredibly smarmy digs at my supposed lack of intelligence only make you look incredibly insecure. This has to be one of the most passive-aggressive posts I have ever seen on ANN.

Excessive info-dumping is terrible writing. Info-dumps in and of themselves are not bad, and several series do it MUCH better than Mahouka ever did. Haruhi had a ton of info-dumps, but they were frequently conversations interspersed with Kyon's charming wit. Mahouka just grinds the story to a halt and dumps completely useless information onto us. Half of the shit in Mahouka's infodumps is ultimately pointless for the plot. They are literally the author mentally masturbating for several pages.

And I am saying this as someone who plays Tabletop RPGs, where incredibly detailed worlds are the norm. But Exalted, D&D, Warhammer 40K, etc. never bogged themselves down with utterly pointless minutiae. Exalted never spent 4 pages describing how Essence worked, or how Sidereals could predict the future, or how Alchemicals ran, or how the bodies of Getimians work now that they have thousands of divine spiders living in their spines with a working model of Loom of Fate inside as well. Because that stuff doesn't matter

About 'info-dumps', we can agree on them not being inherently bad. The rest is really up to you.
And "D&D doesn't have pointless minutiae", do you know how easy it is to see you're just popping stuff out your ass for this one? If you'd have even an ounce of experience with the guidebooks, you'd know this to be false.
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Tony K.
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Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:37 pm Reply with quote
So I'm going through reports, and see one for Chagen with the description "getting out of hand."

There have been about a dozen and a half posts since the report in question, and I honestly don't wanna' read through all that supposed vitriol garbage. So let me just leave ya'll with a request to stop escalating whatever it is someone (presumably Chagen) started and be done with it. Reports of other posts from here on out will be subject to editing and deleting to relieve me of future headaches.

Thanks.
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Randomfart



Joined: 02 Mar 2014
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:42 pm Reply with quote
jojothepunisher wrote:

I don't know why you are still responding to these people. I mean seriously, we all know Tatsuya is not overpowered, especially when he single handedly took down the entire branch of Blanche in Japan without so much as lifting a finger. God, how can you not see that?

Yeah like how Krillin can single handedly blow up cities in Dragonball? Isn't he really OP in that series?

Edit: Sorry didn't see the notice in time.
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Instinctz



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
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Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:50 pm Reply with quote
the point that we are trying to make is this: yes Tatsuya is strong, even overpowered, however, he is not without his own faults and weaknesses to offset his great strength, as has been pointed out again and again in the novels.

no, he isn't racist, and he didn't "nuke" a bunch of civilians (it was purely a military base, a point the novel actually makes).

the novel may not be a masterpiece, comparable to Lord of the Ring, Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice and Fire, but it knows its target audience well and the writing is intended for that audience.

will it be "the best anime ever"? no, i doubt that it will, it might just be the anime of the season (and even year, though i doubt it) and it is an anime that i am looking forward too.

for the record, i intend to keep all discussion civil. will i disagree with people? yes. but i have no intention of thinking they are retarded or anything like that.
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