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i agree entirely that the larger Japanese culture has difficulty separating homosexuality from transgenderism. I don't think that's what's driving BL. There are BL manga with trans women in them, and the authors, overwhelmingly, seem completely clear on the difference between a feminine uke, a crossdressing cis man, and a trans woman.

I disagree. BL is largely part of shoujo. Shoujo in general is deeply invested in gender non-normativity. Look at the number of heterosexual romances in which the male lead has overtly non-masculine traits, from his hobbies/personality (Otomen) to outright crossdressing (at least four in English; of those not in English, Usotsuki Lily is particularly interesting). Look at the shoujo series where sexually aggressive women target feminine uke-ish men (Train*Train, Gakuen Prince). Look at the sheer amount of shoujo-related merch featuring cute uke-type guys who are not presented as being in gay relationships. You can't tell me that that is all byblows of stereotypes about homosexuality.

I really don't think it's only because gay men don't want to be stereotyped generally. Japanese gay men's media (and to a large extent Western gay men's media) overwhelmingly represent gay men as uniformly hypermasculine, which is itself a stereotype. There are gay men who do not identify with this stereotype, and there have certainly been gay men who have complained about it, but not to the degree or with the vitrol that the majority complain about being stereotyped as feminine. The particular distaste for being represented as feminine is absolutely related to the devaluation of femininity.

(Not at all related to BL, but for a Western gay man's take on this issue, David Halperin's How To Be Gay discusses the relative valoration of gendered traits in American gay culture.)

Since I'm not a girl I can't really add to the conversation, I have to say that debates like this are why I prefer ANN to other anime forums. You don't have calm debate like this on other sites.

I think it's great that there are Shojo titles that features subversion of the usually romance tropes. Why is it that BL doesn't also have this sort of diversity? BL seems to follow the "girly uke" and "manly seme" formula way too often. It all still seems pretty fishy to me. If defying conventional masculinity is really the goal, why are there not many feminine man x feminine man titles? I'm aware that they exist, but they aren't nearly as popular as titles that feature the usual seme/uke BL relationship. I suppose you could argue that the presence of a "manly seme" would highlight the femininity of the "girly uke", but then why must they always be in a relationship? You could easily place other manly characters around the feminine character to get the same effect, but this is not the strategy that mangaka use. There is still that "manly seme" that inevitably winds up with the "girly uke", which mirrors heterosexual relationships way too closely.

Well if that's true, then I definitely want to see some of these titles! The popular BL tend to handle these themes poorly.

Why is it that BL doesn't also have this sort of diversity? BL seems to follow the "girly uke" and "manly seme" formula way too often. It all still seems pretty fishy to me. If defying conventional masculinity is really the goal, why are there not many feminine man x feminine man titles?

I'm sure that there are people out there who devalue femininity like you are saying, but you are making it sound like that is the main thing that's going down.

The main issue is still the larger cultural context of how homosexuality is perceived in Japan.

I feel that it's similar to how lesbians can be stereotyped in America. There's an expectation in American culture that lesbians should be "butch", similar to the Japanese expectation that a gay man should be feminine.

I feel the purpose of putting the two extremes together is simply to highlight the differences between them. Foils are a common thing in writing, and usually a character's foil is equal in importance to them. A manly seme and a feminine uke when together emphasize the each other's traits. It's like how in heterosexual romances, say, a calm collected guy and a more whimsical girl are put together (though then we get into the possibly-bad territory of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl...). Also, conflict can come from both characters clashing with each other.

If the Seme/Uke dynamic is popular in Japan because of their perception of gay relationships, as you say, then why is the dynamic popular in western BL fandom as well? Us westerners don't have the "gay men are women trapped in a man's body" idea (well, MOST of us don't, hopefully!) and as CrowLia said are a little further ahead of Japan when it comes to homosexual stuff (though we're far, FAR from perfect) and yet the dynamic is very popular here as well. Are we simply missing the context and interpreting it through a different cultural lens?

I don't know what you've read, but off the top of my head…

I have to disagree with your view on characters in yuri titles. […] I do believe that it’s considered strange for women to identify as lesbian, but I’m not aware of any notions of “lesbians are men trapped in women’s bodies”.

If BL mangaka really are only defying conventional gender norms, why are they perpetuating the all-too-conventional stereotype of the feminine gay man? It would be far more impactful if they stepped away from the stereotype and defied conventional masculinity in a heterosexual male character (which surely some shoujo mangaka have done).

People rag on the “girly ukes” because we see it for what it is- an attempt to heteronormalize a gay relationship by giving one of the male characters feminine characteristics.

Now why do we westerners feel the need to rag on the “girly uke”? Probably because gender and sexuality issues are huge in the western world right now. Given the social climate, I find it far more likely that people on a forum are going to hate on something for avoiding the issue (i.e. making a gay relationship “less gay”), rather than hate on something to perpetuate a gender issue (i.e. hating a feminine man because he’s feminine).

It's very common for Western men to reject the male leads in shoujo manga as not really being men, as being ridiculously girly, as people they can't identify with and don't want to imagine being. A fair number of Japanese men do this too. The key point here is that men don't like women's fantasies about men. They don't match up with men's fantasies about themselves. This isn't restricted to gay men, and it isn't restricted to Japanese media. Look at the amount of whining about "sparkly emo vampires" in Twilight; I can't stand Twilight, but a lot of the vitriol coming from men was aimed at the insufficient masculinity of the love interest.

It's very common for Western men to reject the male leads in shoujo manga as not really being men, as being ridiculously girly, as people they can't identify with and don't want to imagine being. A fair number of Japanese men do this too. The key point here is that men don't like women's fantasies about men. They don't match up with men's fantasies about themselves. This isn't restricted to gay men, and it isn't restricted to Japanese media. Look at the amount of whining about "sparkly emo vampires" in Twilight; I can't stand Twilight, but a lot of the vitriol coming from men was aimed at the insufficient masculinity of the love interest.

2. BL is saying nothing about gay stereotypes. The gender norm that it (and most shoujo) is challenging is the deeply embedded assumption that men are naturally and normatively masculine, women are attracted to men because of their masculinity, and feminine men are not desirable.

You can't tell me that effemiphobia isn't a real issue. Feminine men in the US take a huge amount of shit. Feminine gay men take a huger amount of shit. Japan is more tolerant of pretty metrosexual guys because it's understood that women go for that, but overtly feminine men still get shit on for not being "real" men. I've seen straight Japanese men talk about liking BL because it validates male femininity as natural and desirable, and presents a different form of male sexuality that isn't dependent on being aggressive and "carnivorous".

You're bringing assumptions to the table here: women aren't attracted to feminine men, women don't want to be penetrative, women can't identify with the more masculine character. BL isn't a coded heterosexual relationship unless you insist that women have to identify solely with the uke. Try looking at Japanese fujoshi culture: they talk about how BL allows them to "take both roles". Try looking at the academic studies of Anglophone BL readers: they talk about how BL allows readers to fantasize about being dominant and penetrative. Heck, try looking at depictions of fujoshi in Japanese pop culture: the stereotype is that they want their boyfriends to be uke (this comes up in Genshiken, Fujoshi Rumi, My Girlfrend's a Geek, Tonari no 801-chan…)

The comments early in this thread weren't about "making a gay relationship “less gay”". They were about whether or not the uke character was too feminine to actually be a representation of a man. (The first comment about gender was "Ugg, I hate BL like this. They just draw a girl character and say she has a penis.") The "gay stereotype" point didn't come up until after I complained about this attitude.

In short, guys who rag on the shojo male lead are different from the people who rag on the “girly uke”.

However, it doesn’t change the fact that many BL relationships are portrayed in a heteronormative way. Not just the sex part, but in relationship dynamics and conflicts. [...] It’s far more likely that in order to explore these kinks, they’ve defaulted to shaping homosexual relationships into more familiar and acceptable heterosexual relationships.

There was one user who said that, and no one agreed with them. Actually, I’m pretty sure most people attacked them.

It boils down to this: you can’t assume that disliking “girly uke” characters is a result of sexism.

I’m genuinely curious if it’s that we just hang out in different parts of the internet because I’ve seen the heteronormative homosexual relationship debate played out plenty of times in BL/slash fanfic discussions.

And I'm saying that putting men into a traditionally feminine role does not make them women and does not mean that the relationship is heterosexual. Wanting to see a man who is fully and unreservedly feminine is not the same as portraying a heterosexual relationship. Wanting to see a man deal with traditionally feminine relationship dynamics and conflicts is not the same as portraying a heterosexual relationship.

[…]

The people defending the character were doing so on the grounds that he is not girly, not on the grounds that there is no reason he shouldn't be girly. Everyone who participated in the discussion agreed that if he was girly he would be a "girl with a penis". I'm sure the participants didn't intend to be sexist, but this is nonetheless a sexist attitude.

[…]

Disliking them on the grounds that they are too feminine be men is sexist. This is not just a matter of personal taste.

[…]

I've seen this debate quite a lot too, and in my experience it is extremely likely to be linked to the attitude that feminine ukes are coded women and not actually men because they are too feminine to be men. Furthermore, it is rare to see people challenge that attitude. Currently our culture is moving towards fighting homophobia, but effemiphobia is still acceptable to the mainstream. Effemiphobia is partially linked to homophobia, but it is mainly linked to sexism. It is definitely a feminist issue.

However, the people who were expressing a dislike of the “girly uke” character, were doing so because we are wary of Japanese homosexual stereotypes and we were reacting against a prevalent stereotype.

The term “girl with penis” is a bit vulgarly simplistic for my taste, but no one indicated that a girly uke’s femininity was bad because femininity shouldn’t be found in men.

BL is a part of Japanese media, and it contributes to society’s overall image of gay men. If there was a variety of other media that portrayed gay men in different ways, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

There are plenty of feminine male characters that are received just fine by fan bases outside of BL

stereotype of gay relationships having the same dynamics as heterosexual relationships

So, I am Asian American, and I’m aware that American media tends to portray Asian characters as really smart, sometimes nerdy.

As I said above, no-one brought up the issue of "a prevalent stereotype" until after I posted. If you go back to pages 1 and 2, and read the exchanges between Faiga_Raisa, fencer_x and CrowLia, they are talking solely about Ryouma's excessive femininity or lack thereof and whether it makes him a coded woman. None of them so much as mentioned gay stereotypes until they started responding to my post.

The posters in question were all specifically implying that excessive femininity would mean that the character was not validly male. The only disagreement was over what degree of femininity this entailed. Go back and read the posts.

But thanks for saying any guy that happens to take care of himself is a "girl with a penis". Classy.

I agree with you, a man that takes care of his appeareance is not a girl just as much as a girl who doesn't care about hers is a man.

This is not a parallel analogy. I understand your complaint about "brainy Asians", but as you point out, Asians being smart is a positive stereotype (and at least among nerds, being nerdy is also positive Wink ). Being a feminine man, as far as the majority culture is concerned, is firmly negative. You could argue that it is not valid for women to recoup negative stereotypes of gay men, but it is definitely valid for women to recoup negative stereotypes of femininity, including stereotypes of male femininity. Men, gay or straight, are typically less interested in defending the validity of male femininity, so if we don't do it no one will.

It's really not my place to speak for them, but if they truly believed that men shouldn't have feminine qualities because feminine qualities shouldn't be found in men, then they would have, you know, argued that point.

Ugg, I hate BL like this.
They just draw a girl character and say she has a penis.

As if that convinces me "super petite face, tiny frame, forever blushing, giant eyes, manicured nails and eyebrows, mannerisms on par with a regular Japanese woman, who cries often" could ever actually be a man.

I like that you make these wild assumptions without even having read the series. Because if you had, you'd see you're way off I feel like Ryouma cries more than Izumi (I don't think Izumi cries at all?), and Izumi is a frumpy otaku, not someone with ~manicured nails and eyebrows~

Honestly I'm the first one to complain about girl-with-penis ukes, and that kept me from reading this manga for a long time, but I'm really grateful that I did. Apart from his looks, there's nothing girl-with-penis about Izumi, he's awesome. I'm really looking forward to this series.

You are making a general assumption that all people view femininity as negative.

My point is that if you see people talking about hating girly uke characters on an internet forum, you can't jump to the conclusion that these people are one of the jerks who think "men should be men". [...] All the points that you are bringing up are not making me believe that hating girly uke characters is sexist [...] My only request is that you consider the possible reasons people have for their opinions before you accuse them of sexism.