Forum - View topicGAME: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes
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HyugaHinata
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I've never played much MGS, but isn't Snake around 130 by now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIL1gs4OnAU |
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AiddonValentine
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so basically Kojima has no clue what he's doing now and seems to have become insecure over his own creation and thus has resorted to shallow attempts at shock value in order to get attention. Sounds about right. It seems nowadays whenever he's interviewed he's always bemoaning his own lack of direction/interest/creativity.
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Ryuman
Posts: 4 |
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I feel a little confused. The spoiler[ rape tape ] (not that loads of others have spoiled it anyway though) is pretty well done in the fact of how tasteful it is. You don't see it, and it doesn't last long. The fact that it is something you have to discover actually adds an interesting layer to me. Like showing the things in war that would otherwise be let unknown against the shadow of time. The selection of the characters plays on a relationship dynamic to twist it. You feel sorry for the both of them, not just the girl as some have been purporting. In fact, I felt more sorry for Chico. Paz was very strong there.
As for the "pointless and gratuitous violence", I suppose that really is in the way you see it. I'm not even sure what this refers to. Is it spoiler[ the destruction of mother base?] If so, then I don't get it. It's something for the players, especially those who played Peace Walker to feel upset about. spoiler[ Seeing it all burn down makes you feel upset about your comrades and the work you built up in PW, just like Kaz expresses both in the game and TPP trailers.] You resent the antagonist and want revenge, a central theme of the game. But revenge isn't a good thing, we're meant to be seeing the futility of vicious revenge circles as Snake descends into villainy. Actually, speaking of that, I kind of question the part of the review mentioning the "good guys beating the baddies", or something to that effect. Because it's kind of missing the point. Anyway, Kojima isn't the most subtle guy, but I think he's doing a pretty good job, even if I didn't really enjoy the fact that GZ was released separately since the story gets cut up and everyone judges this section in a way that's a little too self-contained. To call him up his own ass seems kind of... I dunno, kind of up its own ass itself? I can get if you have an opinion, but that's not really necessary.
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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I find this comment a bit hypocritical given the most popular games involve brutally torturing and murdering people for fun, and the game actually encourages it and sell themselves off that feature. Sociopathy was one of Jack Thompsons statements when he criticized violent video games. Retorts towards him were claims that gamers were able to realize between fiction and reality. Though this was before Call of Duty became such a huge hit, and I suppose once corporations can make money off an idea it suddenly becomes an acceptable concept towards the public. Trying to go after violence in video games today would be seen as foolish because shooters have become so complacent in the industry that such claims would be met with scorn. I imagine that's why the topic has shifted towards sex in recent years. Perhaps we just need a really popular game to change that in the west's public eye |
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Juno016
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I'm not actually claiming that it will do this, but if Phantom Pain ends up playing on our opinions of Ground Zeroes, and subverting all our thoughts cleverly, would that make Ground Zeroes a better story to those here criticizing it?
For instance, what if the some of the tapes left behind are actually hoaxes, meant to draw Snake into a trap? Something like that might mean that Kojima was aware of what it meant to put tapes like that in Ground Zeroes. And I could actually see MGS pulling that kind of twist, not so much to shock Snake, but to pick at the player for thinking so narrow-mindedly about the torture tapes. This is no excuse right now, but I'm curious what people might think if, whether it was my suggestion or some other twist, our disappointments were all foolery meant to distract us from the true point. Would that make Ground Zeroes, as a stand-alone game, better? |
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Mister Ryan Andrews
 Posts: 219 |
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If you mean out-of-universe, then it doesn't matter because not everything needs some deep, metaphorical reason to exist, and it doesn't need someone's personal seal of approval. Especially when similar scenes are found in real life. Rape happens in war all the time, so there's no reason to hide it in video games. Turn that question around "Why WOULDN'T it be there?"
I don't recall a story needing the right to do what it wants. There's no rulebook, and if there was it wouldn't be written by internet forum goers.
And what does that say about people? "Oh, that's fine, it's okay to horribly torture and murder people so it's no big deal." That we as a culture have just accepted that kind of mentality. The fact you assert that 'rape is never good' should be seen as a positive itself. No one will see rape in this game and try to justify raping someone. They'll know it's bad. Meanwhile, torturing people is responded to with "But wait! It's okay to do that because ____!" I'd rather not continue the shame of discussing or showcasing rape by making it a taboo subject, because there's already enough of that garbage in real life. We don't need the public to also fall to this 'it's just not something we should talk about' or 'well it's not something that should be acknowledged that exists' mentality and leads to victims not reporting the crime because it's taboo and would make people uncomfortable.
Rape is categorized as a violent crime. They're not really separated at all.
No one would be making a big deal of this if this was a book or a movie or TV show. Society has accepted those mediums, yet video games are still held to a double standard about a lot of subjects. Or to quote what Kojima himself said on the subject "If we don't make attempts to express what we really want to express, games will only be games. If we don't try to go beyond that, we won't be able to achieve what movies or novels have achieved. I didn't want to stay away from these things that could be considered sensitive. If we don't go that far, games will never be considered as culture." So long as games are slapped with these double standards, then they won't be accepted like movies or books are and things that are the norm for those are criticized in games. |
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Rahxephon91
 Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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Lets all of a sudden put graphic rape in Final Fantasy. Yeah that would really fit the tone that series has established. It's even worse in MGS's case, because this is one continuous story. One where in previous games you sit and take pictures of war damaged women in sexy poses, play with a bird watcher's boobs, and general other strange out there crap. Excuse me if I seem a little hesitant in seeing MGS tackle something like this.
Not it's not fine to kill people in real life, but you're not doing that. You're playing a game that is so over the top that it's violence is ridiculous and can not be taken seriously. Violence is also romanticized heavily in fiction. Rape on the other hand can never have a positive and can not be cheapened.
What we're saying is rape is such a serious subject and should stay this serious thing. It shouldn't just be used as some shock story plot and be cheapened. If you're going to talk about rape do it in a respectful and tasteful matter. Something MGS5 sure did not. It really just used it to say "THIS IS WAR AND WAR IS BAD" and you've basically admitted that here. It dosen't go deeper then that and it's shallow. There's no reflection on what rape actually is and what it does. It's just used to set the tone on MGS5. Thats cheap. Works of fiction about rape don't just use rape to say "this is the tone of our story". This use rape to explore the characters or something.
Besides, if this wasn't a Japanese game. I sure doubt you'd be defending it right now. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Can I just interrupt and take a minute here and say something I feel needs to be said: Mr. Ryan Andrews, with all sincerity and from the bottom of my heart, fuck you. Trying to co-opt a serious issue like the under-reporting of rape and shaming of rape victims and twisting it into a justification for the schlocky game you like is despicable and you should be ashamed. But you have no shame. You are a wretched little man and a disgusting person. Please choke on your own ass and die. There. You may now return to your regularly scheduled apologism. Although on that note...
No, but I don't think anyone is saying that games inherently can't ever include rape. But, and this is the key point, if you're going to do that you damn well better treat it with the sensitivity and respect the subject deserves. Don't just throw it in there for cheap shock value. That's disrespectful, tasteless and totally off-putting. Unless of course you're a sociopath for whom empathy is a totally alien concept. Which you are. (Please revisit the above for further elaboration).
And as long as games continue to lack the tact and quality of writing to handle subject matter like this, they will continue to be slapped with a double standard. The solution isn't to just throw in a bunch of "mature" subject matter for shock value. That's the mentality of an insecure child. |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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My two cents on the subject matter is Metal Gear has always been a series to embrace absurdity and silliness with one hand and serious drama in the other. I think it would be fair to say that is the appeal for a lot of people. Scenarios which tells you which game you previously had in your Playstation or use the Dual Shock feature to make your controller move, in addition to criticizing you if you use a turbo controller exists in the same realm as tragic death, torture, genocide, conspiracy, and other horrific storylines. It's certainly a unique blend. I did not find the rape tapes out of place at all given what we've seen from past games.
Not to get too off subject, but rape has indeed been used in Final Fantasy before. In Final Fantasy Tactics spoiler[Rapha was raped by Duke Barrington after he murdered her family and village and adopted her and her brother]. And in Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, spoiler[there are numerous quests that involve it once you reach the fallen kingdom of Ala Mhigo. Also the Arcanist class quest line involves K'lyhia being kidnapped by Doesmaga and his pirate crew and repeatedly raped by them] Final Fantasy is similar to Metal Gear I would say. We have plotlines of genocide and racial war alongside talking octopus monsters who try to invade opera plays. I see nothing wrong with more serious or darker subjects coexisting with light-hearted ones. Light-hearted plots can help players not feel overwhelmed by the sheer depressing nature of some of these stories.
This is simply untrue. For one thing, quality is in the eye of the beholder so it's hard to make a case for what would be considered games with good writing. Regardless, there are plenty of movies out that that can be classified as shock value or torture porn, or simply bad B movies, and they do nothing to hurt the integrity of the film medium. If we condemned a medium for bad entries, then we'd have no entertainment industry left. Though even if you do not agree with Kojima's decision, calling his game schlock seems a bit extreme. I believe the stigma against games in western culture has to do with how relatively new the medium is, and who plays them. For the longest time games were thought of as a children's past time and only recently has it been more acceptable for all ages to enjoy them, especially in the west which did not become so prevalent in consoling gaming until Microsoft entered the console race. While gaming has become more accepted, is is still not in the same league as other forms of mainstream entertainment. The few games that are tend to be ones that emulate prime time television or realism the most. I've noticed certain reviews praise a game if it has 'TV show like writing' such as the case of Uncharted or Grand Theft Auto series. I suppose one could relate it to the way animation is treated in the west. Before, it was a kids thing. Then with the rise of prime-time adult sitcoms it became more acceptable to watch it, so long as you stuck to that specific type of animation. Anything else, however, would still be met with dubious glances. Things are getting better for games, but there is still a long way to go. I must also wonder if the fact gaming journalism is far less professional and lucrative than other types of media journalism is also a factor. It is mainly restricted to the internet, which is an entirely different culture on its own compared to print. |
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Looneygamemaster
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I see the exact same argument every time some distasteful content in Japanese media is complained about: "Yeah, but American media has distasteful content too!"
And every time it's brought up, my mental response is "Yeah...so what?" 
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LondinCalling
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If big boss gets raped later on how would the fans feel? Because well, now that characters have been raped it could happen to the B-man too ya kno
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whiskeyii
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I think you're missing the keyword "graphic" here. I did a quick Google search on the games you mentioned. In both cases, the rape is implied but not outright stated, which is why both games have not only T ratings, but also numerous threads that actually ask if a rape happened in order to clarify that point. The nebulousness of the incidents is what helps them fly under the radar. However, the tapes are as audio-ly explicit as possible. In my mind, the worst is when the second bomb is inserted inside of Paz's spoiler[vagina], complete with squelching sounds. Not to mention Paz's anguished screams and both Paz' and Chico's moaning during the rape scenes. Kojima has built himself a reputation for commenting on the horrors of war in the Metal Gear games, with varying degrees of success depending on who you talk to. But it pairs up this commentary with over-the-top flamboyishness which undercuts a truly serious message. Spec Ops: The Line works better because there is no outright silliness involved (at least as far as video game constraints are concerned; you can survive multiple hits, after all). The franchise has a history of realistic gameplay, so when it displays a no-holds-barred, no pulled-punches depiction of the depravity of war, ALONG WITH the repercussions of war on citizens, the ethics of biological weapons, etc. you take it seriously. Metal Gear? Not so much. And I think part of the problem is that even when Metal Gear makes comments about the nature of war and violence, it still REVELS in violence. That's very different from the aforementioned Spec Ops, which often intends (and succeeds, in my opinion) in making the player shy away from and feel revulsion at the violent acts they continue to commit to further the story. If Kojima wanted to make a game that featured the horrors prisoners of war have to endure, fine. There are historical accounts of female POWs and the assaults they had to endure. I'm almost positive Metal Gear is not the ideal franchise to do it in, but whatever. If he wanted to include rape as a realistic method of torture for female POWs, fine. What I question isn't the rape, but the explicitness of it. Why is it explicit? What purpose does it serve to the narrative? Skull Face is already acknowledged as an established villain. There's no point to it there. The only thing I can think of is to enrage the player. It's an easy, cheap, narrative shortcut to evoke both sympathy and rage, and I see it done night after night on late-night reruns of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit. Not exactly high praise if Kojima wants games to be recognized as art. It's the literary equivalent of thinking shopping at Hot Topic automatically makes you "edgy". P.S. This should probably go without saying, but obviously I mean no offense to those who shop at Hot Topic. |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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I'm not sure you can really call the rape in Ground Zeroes "graphic". It's told through an audio log rather than shown on screen. We're not entirely sure what happened exactly. Perhaps intentially.
Though one thing that stood out to me was spoiler[how Paz handled the situation. Despite what was happening to her, she urged Chico not to talk. And even when Chico was forced to have sex with her, Paz tries to reassure him and says "it's okay, you won't hurt me". From this dialog, we can confer the incident traumatized Chico more than Paz. Paz remained remarkably strong through the ordeal compared to Chico, who was no doubt the weaker of the two which means the woman was the stronger one in this crisis. People may disagree with having rape in the game, but it's hardly your typical gratuitous torture porn scene.] Though Metal Gear VS Spec Ops is entirely preferential. I've not played Spec Ops so I'm not sure what it entails, but if someone wants something with no-nonsense in it then that's fine. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Indeed. That is where much of the criticism of games as a whole comes from. But the criticisms here on this forum and in this review in regards to this particular issue do not. Nobody here is saying games can't tackle tough subject matter simply by virtue of being games. This whole double standard issue is just a red herring that apologists are dredging up as a deflection. The argument is not "games can't have rape in them". The argument is "games, like any other medium, should treat the subject with an appropriate amount of respect and tact." |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2245 |
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I'd call it "graphic" in a video game sense, where these things are typically alluded to only in text, and most times merely implied. An actual visual depiction of rape would have slapped an Adults Only rating on this thing for sure, which, at least in the US, would mean you couldn't sell it in stores. I do agree that the intent of the logs doesn't seem to be for titillation (for which I am grateful), but the intensity of the logs combined with the very descriptive noises just seems at odds with the Metal Gear franchise as a whole, given its history. It was...interesting to hear how Paz tried to comfort Chico (if he wasn't a minor, I might have found it a touch heartwarming instead of straight up horrific), and if Chico is included in the main story, it will be interesting to see if Kojima proves he *can* handle mature topics by addressing Chico's trauma, or if he'll just sweep it under the rug. But judging by the ending, it's a pretty big "if". EDIT:
My only point here was that Spec Ops, being a serious game, can introduce mature topics and have them taken seriously. Metal Gear, with its campy tone, generally can't. (Though I do recommend Spec Ops: The Line for anyone interested in a subversion of modern FPS games.) |
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