Forum - View topicGAME: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes
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EastN3
 Posts: 149 |
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I'm not understanding the hate here.
1.) The biggest complaint seems to be that Ground Zeroes isn't as goofy as the main series. Although this was disappointing to me too, the assertion that Kojima doesn't have the right to do this is absurd. It's his series, if he wants MGS5 to be completely serious, that's his right. There's a difference between saying that you're disappointed Ground Zeroes didn't have the usual cheesiness, and stating that Kojima somehow owes it to us for MGS5 to be the way we want it to be. He doesn't. If you don't like it, don't buy it. That's how capitalism works. 2.) The whole rape tape thing. I didn't find the tape to be exploitive or gratuitous at all. It wasn't even graphic and the tape cut away during the implied rape, so the player didn't even hear it. If your argument hinges on the fact that it wasn't as goofy as you expected, refer back to point 1. 3.) The rape "sensitivity and tact" argument. This is supposed to be a realistic depiction of war. Rape happens in war. Why do people have to put kid gloves on when discussing this topic? It's included in the story to show the effect that war has on people, and to further showcase the depth to which people can sink, both for the rapist( sinking in depravity, cruelty) and the victim(shame, suffering). These are themes MGS have explored before, just not quite so powerfully. 4.) I'm not buying the pseudo-feminist "rape is worse than torture/murder" argument. Personally, I think killing someone is worse than raping someone( although both are despicable) and the idea that rape is some sacred crime that must have deep symbolism and metaphorical significance while murder is just fine and dandy is absurd and prejudiced. The way people are trying to spin it as "violence can be positive while rape is always negative" is childish. Rape is violence, and shoving objects in places people don't want things shoved is not intrinsically worse than putting lead between someone's eyes. |
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Jave
 Posts: 198 |
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Nice to see people can keep their arguments civil and not resort to name calling.
This controversy is pretty overblown, though. Most complaints about the game out there are about the price. It's only a select few people who actually have issue with there being rape in a video game. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2245 |
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Are you and I listening to the same tape? You *do* hear the rapes. You hear a tape that has Paz moaning in the background before she screams. You hear Chico moaning when being forced to "taste" Paz before the tape cuts. You hear those horrendous noises when Paz has the second bomb inserted inside of her. I think anything significantly longer would have earned Ground Zeroes the infamous Adult Only rating, which, as I mentioned, would prevent this game from being sold in-stores, which hurts business.
I'm going to refer you to ikillchicken's response:
We already know Skull Face is an evil, evil man. Rape is almost redundant at this point. But if you really want to include rape, the best way is, like you said, to tell it about the victim. However, that's not what Ground Zero does. The ending makes seeing how Paz deals with it impossible, and Chico unlikely. So what is the rape actually used for? Just to enrage the player. For shock value, more or less. It's not used for commentary because it's hidden in collectibles across the game instead of addressed front and center. The rape is used in service to the protagonist, instead of where it should be, in how it relates to the victim.
Your personal views are your own. However, I don't think rape is symbolic OR metaphorical. Depicting it is uncommon, though, which means players are less desensitized to it than they are with standard violence, since most games run on violence. However, I would argue that since murder ends with the victim dying, whereas rape sometimes has the victim alive, rape is the worse of the two, since the victim has to deal with the stigma of being raped and the ensuing trauma. At least for a murder victim, the turmoil ends with death. |
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Rahxephon91
 Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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War is serious, MGS's war in military fantasy. Even in MGSV's more serious tone it's still hardly some realistic take on war.
The argument isn't which act is worse. The argument is how fiction uses each.
rape on the other hand can have none of these things. Do you not understand that. Do you think someone can make a story where rape actually is this cool thing heroes do? No it can't happen. It's always a serious thing and can't have a positive spin on it. Snake kills a lot of bad guys, but he saved the day. He's a hero. That makes sense. Snake raped Paz to get info to save the day. Snake can't be a good guy. We haven't been desensitized to rape and we very well shouldn't. I think it's pretty childish that you can't understand such concepts and your answer is "well both are bad so why can't you use them". Thinking this without any actual thought in this. Whatever. This talk is getting awful. Last edited by Rahxephon91 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EastN3
Posts: 149 |
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Alright, I got some actual responses, so I'll answer them in turn
whiskeyii- First, I went back and listened to the rape tape again, still didn't hear what you're talking about in terms of various moans, etc. Maybe you have a much better stereo system than me? Secondly, yes, Skull Face is an evil, evil man. And a man like him would rape women. Claiming that rape is redundant is somewhat hypocritical. Having a cutscene where Skull Face executes people wouldn't have any controversy. But having him rape someone, offscreen no less, which is something we have already established he would do, gets people up in arms. The rape is supposed to be a realistic display of both the powerlessness, and by default, the powertrip that war can give people. I believe MGSGZ shows this. Lastly, the whole rape worse than death thing, I'm not going to argue with as it's really a philosophical question, not something I can argue competently. Rahxephon91- 1.) Now that you have clarified what you were arguing about, I can accept your viewpoint. 2.) I also agree rape is serious, and that's why I don't think people should keep trying to shove it in a box and forget about it. It's a extremely horrific crime and it happens all the time so why is just about the only piece of fiction that deals with it L&O: SVU? 3.) I don't agree that it didn't display the suffering of Paz. The way that Paz tries to comfort Chico despite the pain she's going through, I found to be a perfect example of how the rape advanced both Paz and Chico's character, and the extra journals you can find add in even more development. The fact that Skull Face doesn't ever show any remorse reinforces how disconnected from humanity he is. I also don't agree that MGSV isn't a realistic take on war. It has fantastical technology, but that doesn't mean it can't accurately show the full spectrum of emotions war can evoke. For example, The Ice and Fire series is fantastical, yet has very realistic depictions of human nature. 4.) I feel you'll have to clarify your position, because I'm still getting a "in fiction, violence is always perfectly okay whereas rape is the end all be all worst act in the world and must never be used unless it links to deep symbolic meaning for the victim." Actual rape isn't like that. There is no symbolic meaning. It's cruel and heartless and it happens all the time. Wanting it to only be used when it makes the victim stronger doesn't change the fact that it doesn't work like that. That's what GZ points out. 5.) Maybe in fiction violence is romanticized, but Kojima pointed out he wants to change people's opinions with this game, and maybe he'll do just that. The fact that "Snake killed guys, but he is a hero cause he saved the day" doesn't make any more sense to me than "Snake raped and saved the day" both are bad and should be judged equally. If anything, based on my own personal moral beliefs Murderer Snake is worse than Rapist Snake. One again, I must point out "Rape is Violence." Ripping out someone's eye balls is not any more "positive" than rape, they are both horrible. Just because past fiction has stated this doesn't mean you get to say that all future and present fiction must adhere to these beliefs as well. Chagen46- This post really reinforces how petty you are. If this is the best response you can give, please, PLEASE, go outside, walk in a random direction, and don't stop walking until you realize just how dumb you're being, no matter how long it takes. 
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2245 |
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I think you're misunderstanding me on this point: the inclusion of rape isn't my biggest issue here, it's the execution of said inclusion. I stated in earlier posts that I acknowledge rape as something that female POWs have historically been subjected to. I do understand that it is a very real threat that people deal with. However, in this instance, MGSGZ does NOT treat rape well. It doesn't further the plot. It doesn't show how the victims of rape struggle and deal with the aftermath of the act-- this might be addressed in Phantom Pain, but as it stands, it seems to function as an empathetic shortcut, which smacks of lazy writing. Think of it this way: if Skull Face had simply subjected Paz to torture, would the removal of rape have any impact on the story? Not on how the PLAYER feels about Skull Face, but the story. Personally, I don't see it. It doesn't have any significant impact on Skull Face's character, and GZ is too short to see if it has any impact on the protagonist. Which might also be part of the problem. If Phantom Pain addresses this issue with maturity, then I will happily swallow my words. But as it stands, it smacks too much of shock for the sake of shock. |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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This statement indicates that accepting the concept of glorifying violence is the correct course of action. It's true rape has not been desensitized in media like violence has, but this does not equate to the desensitization of violence is something to be proud of either, and using it as a method to judge acceptability levels is flawed. Quite frankly, all this talk from people that torture is perfectly acceptable but once rape is involved it becomes unacceptable is disturbing. Though perhaps torture is more accepted in American culture given it's war and political history in the past decade compared to other countries who have not participated in such practices like my own, so it's about cultural relativism. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11296 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Have gotten a lot of reports the last couple of days, specifically about the issue of the game's rape content. And out of those complaints, it's either about how some people are either taking it too seriously or not seriously enough. But because of so many long posts or quoted replies to those posts, I decided to just let it keep going and not edit/delete anything. Not anymore, though.
The game is what it is: a sample. You can try to analyze/interpret what's already there all you want. But don't turn this video game review discussion into a flame war that degrades into calling other people "secret rapists." This is your only warning. If shit gets any crazier, or if people can't calm the eff down, then deletion or locking will be in order. |
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EastN3
Posts: 149 |
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I had a pretty good response, but right after posting it, I noticed the Mod' s comment and deleted it. I have to agree with him. This has gotten pretty out of hand, having started out about Ground Zeroes and turning into a debate on who has the right view on rape and who doesn't. Let's all dial it down a bit.
Last edited by EastN3 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gerbilx
Posts: 138 |
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I emphatically agree. Rape is always absurd. It is meaningless. To attach some pretense of meaning to it creates a sharp divide between fiction and reality that goes way too far. Obsessing over rationalization in fiction doesn't sit well with me. |
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EastN3
Posts: 149 |
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Is this sarcasm? If it is, it doesn't work that well through text...
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Rahxephon91
Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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Nowhere did it say we should be proud of it, but that it's just how things evolved. Long before video games that's for sure. It also makes sense why violence isn't as taboo. Unlike rape. So why you want to put them on equal ground, I'm not sure. Frankly, where did people say torture is acceptable? I'll jump ahead and bring up GTA5 since I'm sure you're just itching to do that, but no it was not good in that game either. Now I know you're going to jump on CoD or some other fps. Which is funny because you're going to do that in defense of MGS a game that is just as violent as those games. Except no one can take the over the top violence in that game seriously and quite honestly it does not reveal in being some murder sim(murder the word you like to use in order to make it seem worse then it really is, a word you deploy to avoid the actual context). They are action games first and foremost and hardly things that attempt to really replicate the real feeling of war or murder and no sane person really thinks they come close. People who do or get off on them are clearly not in the right mind anyway and shouldn't partake in any violent media. Whatever I'm tired of this thread. The usuals(Guile. Jatz or is it Gatz) are here with thier usual stale arguments that just attempt to divert the argument into some sort of attack on the west for no reason. Even though this argument had no such attempt to attack thier precious Japanese games. They will come in and strike up these arguments that really make thier agendas obvious as day. I'm out. I don't even care. MGS is a series that story wise and gameplay wise has been crap since three. V will probably be a good game, but the story will suck anyway. It has nothing to do with rape, though the super seriousness doesn't help. It has more to do with a story being told that is so unnecessary and just further confuses the already confusing and convulated MGS story. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Are you kidding me? Did you seriously just reduce rape to "shoving objects in places people don't want things shoved"!? What is wrong with you? I mean, I get that you guys are determined to say pretty much whatever you can to defend the thing you like, and that is what it is, but how do you not look at this and think "No, I'm going to far here"? Seriously...what the hell man? What the hell? |
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EastN3
Posts: 149 |
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I was trying to describe rape in an way that didn't force me to get gross on a public forum likely frequented by persons under 16, but excuuuuuuuuse me Princess. And in my defense there is no way that you can argue that rape isn't "people sticking objects in places people don't want things shoved." Sure there's more psychological and traumatic complexity involved, but for the purpose of my arguements, my description worked. So thanks for taking one sentence, out of probably hundreds, out of context so you could rage at me for being insensitive. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2245 |
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I think it was the implied trivialization of said psychological and traumatic aspects that was problematic here. Yes, murder is violent, and yes, rape is an act of violence, but rape comes with a whole host of aftereffects that murder doesn't, like victim-blaming, slut-shaming, etc. Regardless, I think "violating another person in the most inhuman way possible" would have worked just as well "shoving objects in places people don't want things shoved". The latter implies it's as bad as, oh, being forced to eat a food you don't like, at least in how it's worded. And I think my point still stands that while Kojima has every right to include rape in his stories if he so chooses, we as consumers also have every right to condemn him for doing it poorly. |
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