Forum - View topicREVIEW: Kill la Kill Episodes 13-24 Streaming
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Kikaioh
 Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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From what I've read, I think you might be misinterpreting the meaning of Samsara. In Buddhism, Samsara is the cycle of existence that "arises from ordinary beings' grasping and fixating on a self and experiences", which can involve being born and reborn into the six realms of the universe, whether on different physical planes of existence (as a being of the lower, human, or upper realms) or different psychological states of experience. It's not human existence that Buddhists want to escape, but rather the cycle of rebirth, because the cycle is a result of avidya (like spiritual ignorance) and thus results in Dukkha (suffering, anxiety, dissatisfaction) regardless of the realm one happens to have been reborn in. Transcendence or reaching nirvana is escaping one's ignorance and thus breaking the cycle of rebirth. Also, from what I understand in Buddhist teaching, humans actually have a special status amongst the different types of beings that exist in this world --- in specific, only humans can attain enlightenment as a fully enlightened Buddha. To quote:
Escaping Samsara isn't about escaping humanity, but escaping the cycle of spiritual rebirth, because even beings of the upper realms are subject to Samsara. In that sense, I think Ryuko (whose character had been marked by unease, desire for revenge, all stemming from a desperate search for ego and identity) could be seen as having gone through various rebirths of spirit throughout the show, and only in the end when she came to understand the simple truths about herself, humanity, clothing and existence was she able to break free of the cycle of her rebirths (sort of like how Satsuki mentioned that from that point on she was finally free from the past karma of the Kiryuin family). I also wouldn't necessarily say that humanity is celebrated at the end of Kill la Kill. Rather, I think the larger point was the simple understanding of the nature of clothing and of humans, as well as the nature of Ryuko's and Senketsu's existence. To repeat, Ryuko and Senketsu at the end of the series came to this understanding about the nature of themselves, clothing and humanity: " True, we're neither human nor clothing! But at the same time, we are both human and clothing! We are everything! People can't become clothing! People are people! Clothing is clothing!"
I think you may be seeing the idea of Attachment from a different angle than I would look at it. Rather, I think the series as a whole is fundamentally about Ryuko's journey to find peace with her past and her personal identity. There are two losses that Ryuko experienced in the context of the series --- the loss of her father, and also the loss of Senketsu. But while the loss of her father was marked by grief and suffering, you'll note at the very last moment of the series the loss of Senketsu seemed to be marked with Ryuko's peaceful understanding on the human realm. Upadana focuses on 4 types of human attachment --- sense/pleasure, wrong-view, rites-and-rituals and self-doctrine. I think in regards to the overarching thematics of the show, the largest focus is mostly on self-doctrine (though if I think about it, the others may very well be expressed in the show as well), as in the clinging to false notions of the self. Ryuko in particular suffers from problems of self-identity throughout the series, first from thinking that finding out about who killed her father would bring her peace, and later from losing herself when she realizes she's partially made of life-fibers. In that sense, I think her final dialogue together with Senketsu at the very end of the series that I previously quoted, sort of demonstrates her abandoning the Upadana of self-doctrine and coming to a larger understanding of herself, of clothing and of the universe --- which is why when she loses Senketsu (unlike the loss of her father) her experience back on the human realm is one of peace. That's all I have for now, but I do think the more I look at Buddhism in the context of the show, the more it seems to fit with everything that happened. Ryuko's spiritual growth, various rebirths of character, and final enlightenment at the end of the series, do kind of seem like she's walked down the path and reached a sort of nirvana, eventually finding peace "as a Buddha" in the human realm. I could be wrong, but for a series that so cleverly references various different concepts and ideas and meshes them into the fabric of the show, I don't think it's far-fetched that those sort of thematics may have been an over-arching goal behind the series. |
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getchman
 Space CowboyPosts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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why is this still going on?
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ChibiKangaroo
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Human existence is part of Samsara. It is thus part of the existence that Buddhists want to escape. The whole idea of enlightenment requires that one transcend from their human existence and attain nirvana. It is ABSOLUTELY an existence that Buddhists want to escape. Thus, the celebration and affirmation of remaining human (and celebrating human flaws) that is a big focus of Kill la Kill is simply contradictory to this teaching. There's no way around it. Buddhists do not want to keep being reborn as human. They want to attain nirvana, which requires escaping the suffering existence that IS the human existence (just as EVERY type of existence is a different form of suffering in Samsara).
Humans have special status because they are the only type of existence which has both wisdom and suffering. That is why they are special, because they suffer. It does not mean that Buddhism celebrates human existence, it means that Buddhism believes humans are best positioned to escape the suffering of Samsara. The only point of being a human in Buddhist teachings is to escape and become enlightened. Again, Kill la Kill indicates that we want to remain human. Humanity and its problems, including its attachments, is celebrated in Kill la Kill. That is against Buddhist teachings.
Yes, it is. It is about escaping ANY form of existence that is not enlightenment, whether human, animal, god, demigod, etc. All are part of Samsara, and you want to escape any of them. Humans are simply best positioned to escape because of their combination of suffering + wisdom.
You are stretching this to an extreme here. Any show where a character goes through some kind of growth could be said to be a Buddhist allegory under that reasoning. Also, I still don't think that even holds true to Buddhist teachings. Ryuko attains her ultimate form by attaching more clothing and power to herself, not by letting go. Also, her desire for revenge is simply replaced with her desire to save her friends. She simply replaced one form of attachment with another. (And yes, in Buddhist teachings, even positive forms of attachment like "people" or "friends" is still attachment.) If you want to see a more accurate Buddhist allegory in an animated show, you should look at Avatar: The Last Airbender. In one pivotal scene, the protagonist Aang is told that he must leave his friends (who are in grave danger) behind and meditate so that he can achieve the avatar form, which is essentially some kind of enlightened form. That was the type of scene which truly illustrates the challenge of the Buddhist teaching of "attachment," since attachment to your friends staying alive is also a form of attachment that must be overcome. Again, you are simply looking at a generic character arc of the protagonist moving from a revenge focus to a "save people" focus. (Also, I think it is debatable as to whether Ryuko ever truly gets past her desire for revenge.) But this does not mean every show which has such a character arc is now some Buddhist allegory, especially in the case of Kill la Kill where they contradict the teachings in the ways I outlined above.
Humanity was MAJORLY celebrated in Kill la Kill. I can't believe you are saying that it was not. The arrogance of the alien life forms is constantly mocked as each time they underestimate the "mere humans" they get slapped around by Ryuko, or in some cases Satsuki. The whole "humans don't make any sense" aspect was played up HEAVILY several times in the final few episodes, and it was played up as some great achievement that the aliens couldn't comprehend. The entire threat at the end of the "story" was that humans would be taken over and transformed into fuel for aliens. Human existence was at stake, and by defeating the aliens and restoring humans to their human form, the good guys triumphed. (In many cases this was literally the case as humans dropped out from COVERS like the animals popping out of roboticized creatures in Sonic the Hedgehog.) This show was a major affirmation of humanity in the face of an extinction threat. I don't see how you can possibly claim otherwise to be honest.
Again, this is a highly generic theme of a protagonist's character arc from being a troubled person to finding some kind of happiness by the end of the show. This is not some special Buddhist story. It is highly generic. Also, like I said earlier, it has very little to do with the concept of attachment. Ryuko's personal identity that she gains at the end of such arc is technically a form of attachment under Buddhist teachings. I am not trying to sound like a broken record here, but seriously, ALL forms of attachment fall under the Upadana concept, including self-identity!
You are not properly understanding this concept. It is not clinging/attachment to a "false" self-identity that is a problem. It is the clinging/attachment to ANY specific self-identity that is a problem and must be let go. Again, just like what you were doing before, you replace one form of attachment with another (attachment to a "bad" self-identity with attachment to a "good" self-identity.) This is against the teachings because transcending to enlightenment requires you to let go of your self-identity entirely. As I said above, this is simply not consistent with Buddhist teachings and is instead a simple character arc which you would see in many other shows. I'm not saying that you haven't found some interesting ways to compare this show with Buddhism. The show certainly borrows from Buddhism in some of the its presentation, but that borrowing is highly superficial. It is just the writers plucking what they want from various cultural concepts for the coolness of it. If they wanted to do something that was a much more well-conceived Buddhist allegory, they would have done more to make sure that the teachings were more respected (such as Avatar: The Last Airbender did as I mentioned above.) |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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I think once again, your understanding of Samsara and what Buddhists wish to achieve seems to be incorrect, perhaps because of your fixation on the word "escape" which I think isn't entirely a correct interpretation of transcendence (though you seem very convinced it is). From what I understand of Buddhist doctrine, it's possible for people to achieve Nirvana while they are alive and human, to live out their human lives in a state of Nirvana, and to pass away. You seem to be of the impression that the Buddhist desire for transcendence is a physical escape from the suffering of existence, like all they strive for is to move to a higher plane like heaven or something similar. But the Buddhist doctrine states that even the higher realms of existence (where all desires may be met) are still subject to Samsara, and that the devas (superhuman beings, not coincidentally also a name used to refer to the Elite 4 in Kill la Kill) may in fact return to the lower realms if they ignore the Dharma out of carefree enjoyment for their blissful existence. Even for those who achieve Nirvana and pass on, the Buddha never explained what happens to them afterward, so Buddhism doesn't guarantee that parinirvana (the final state of nirvana in death) is an existence where the causes of suffering cease to be. Here's a quote from a practicing Buddhist that puts my understanding of the actual Buddhist take on Nirvana into better words I think:
So I think, my understanding is that the goal Buddhists strive for is more in the vein of freeing their minds, to achieve a spiritual state that's unaffected by suffering, not necessarily a physical escape from it. You may have heard the expression before, "you can torture my body, but my mind is free"? I think the concept is similar to the transcendence Buddhists hope to attain. In that sense, I don't think Buddhists are trying to escape suffering --- rather, I think they accept suffering as a natural part of existence, and the goal is to end suffering by conditioning themselves to not be affected by it.
It might be true that the principles expressed in Kill la Kill appear in other works, but I think the important distinction is that those other works don't necessarily directly reference Buddhism like Kill la Kill does. There's the obvious hints in the case of Ragyo's rainbow body, or the naming of the Four Devas (i.e., the Four Heavenly Kings, who are said to be protectors of the world and fighters of evil, each able to command a legion of supernatural creatures to protect the Dharma). But there are less obvious references to Buddhism in Kill la Kill as well. For example, the 'mountain' that Honnoji Academy is perched atop is very likely an allusion to the sacred Mount Sumeru in Buddhism, since that's where the Four Heavenly Kings are said to dwell with their followers, and lends reason for the odd design of the island that the story takes place on. Satsuki then, could be an allusion to Sakra, the ruler of the Four Heavenly Kings. Another aspect regarding Mount Sumeru that appears in Kill la Kill is related to Buddhist meditation, a common practice where disciples sit with their hands together and try to imagine themselves as Mount Sumeru. Well if you look very closely at the different images of Honnoji Academy throughout the series, you'll notice that the school itself has the shape of a face, with two arms wrapping around (the walls) that end in hands with five fingers, as if in meditation (looking not unlike the Kamui or "God clothing" in the show, which in Japanese Ainu mythology also means "divine or spiritual being"). 
What's interesting to note is that Buddhist temples have often modeled their design to resemble Mount Sumeru --- and if you take all of that into consideration, the historical allusion to the Honnoji Incident as a backdrop for the story makes significantly more sense --- because Akechi Mitsuhide (Satsuki) betrayed Oda Nobunaga (Ragyo) at Honnoji, a Buddhist temple in Japan. Recently I also found some information about a Tibetan Buddhist myth about the end times, regarding how an apocalypse will come and barbaric invaders will take over the earth. In the myth, supposedly a ruler from Shambala (a city said to be on a continent that flanks Mount Sumeru) will join with the gods to vanquish the barbarians and bring peace/wisdom to the earth. It makes me wonder if there's a possibility that the plot of Kill la Kill borrows some from the ancient myth. You seem to be of the impression that these references are disparate floating ideas only used for fun or to look cool (which may be true for the pop culture references that usually only appear during humorous moments of the series). I think, though, the references to Buddhism are more closely woven into the fabric of the show itself, not just appearing as simple cameos, but actually affecting major aspects of the show such as character design, visual design, setting design and even the story. And again, regarding the attachment to upgrading her clothes or to having relationships with others, I think your understanding of Buddhism that focuses on escaping existence (as opposed to just ending Dukkha) is largely where your misunderstanding of attachments may be faulty. It's not the relationship to physical objects or people that is a cause of Dukkha, but rather one's mental expectations for (and reaction to) those things that causes suffering and unsatisfactoriness. Relationships and interdependence with people and the world is considered a joy in Buddhism (in fact, from the history of the Buddha himself, it was when he had emerged from his extreme ascetism, weak and starving due to his attempt to abandon worldly goods, that he finally decided to accept food and drink from a girl --- it was soon thereafter that he was at last able to attain enlightenment) and it's in the understanding of one's balanced relation to the world that a person can achieve a higher state of being. Not understanding the duality of both personal independence together with interconnectedness is when Dukkha arises. As for Kill la Kill comparing to Avatar, I've not seen Avatar myself, though from a distance I think it's much more open about its roots in Eastern Religion. Kill la Kill I think tries to be subtle about its references, so the fact that its basis in Buddhism might not be quite as obvious could very well be intentional on the part of the production team.
I think you may be reading meaning into the series that might not have actually been expressed. I don't think the alien life forms in Kill la Kill actually had a voice per se, it was only the human/ish characters (Ragyo and Nui) that showed any degree of hostility and arrogance. The life fibers were creatures that infected other planets, and I never had the sense that they were expressly evil in the show, in-so-much as that they were a frightening nature to the universe that humans had to struggle against. I also didn't perceive the ending as "humankind's victorious defeat of the life fibers", in so much as "Ryuko tells the life fibers not to absorb humanity". The ones who wound up saving mankind, Ryuko and Senketsu, were neither fully human nor fully clothing/life fibers, and even after the Coccoon Sphere was prevented, it's not as though humans abandoned clothing altogether. There may be some deeper meaning to the fact that the Life Fibers stopped their absorption, simply because Ryuko communicated through the satellite "People are people! Clothes are clothes! Turn all humans back into humans!" Also, though I'm not too sure that the show itself celebrates humanity, my understanding is that in Buddhism there's a degree of respect for the value of human life (compared to the different beings of existence, whether of the lower or higher realms). It's my understanding that Buddhists consider human life precious and rare, and that being born as a human is an indication of collected good karma in one's various life cycles. You seem to be insisting that Buddhists are trying to escape humanity, but as I mentioned earlier, I think Buddhists are just trying to end the suffering of dukkha and rebirth through mental/spiritual enlightenment. And regarding attachment, I think you may have misinterpreted my post. It wasn't my suggestion that Ryuko had replaced a negative identity with a good one, but rather that Ryuko had come to an understanding about her identity, and had let go of allowing it to affect her, which I think is the real meaning behind reaching enlightenment. It's not as though she came to a realization like "oh, I'm a human and I'm clothing, that's awesome good for me!" Rather, it was more that she accepted the nature of who she was, like "I'm human and I'm clothing, that's the nature of my existence and I'm at peace with that." She also had a mental attachment to her father's death at the beginning of the series, but to contrast, at the end she had let go of her mental attachment to Senketsu's death, and was at peace. I think this is why the ending can be interpreted as sad because of Senketsu's departure, but still explain why the final moment could show Ryuko smiling. As the previous quote from the Buddhist practitioner points out, those who reach nirvana can still have feelings, but it is their state of mind that frees them from suffering as a result.
I enjoy this conversation, and I'm trying to be careful not to speak in absolutes, because ultimately you may be right in your appraisal of the show's use of Buddhism in the context of the story. The only people who really know for sure what Kill la Kill was aiming for, are the creators themselves, so I don't think either of us can say with any certainty to what extent Buddhism was used to frame the show, we can only speculate. |
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Apollo-kun
 Posts: 1213 Location: City 7, Macross 7 |
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7ThIsGod
Posts: 80 |
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Kill la Kill had a pretty underlying clear theme that is really consistent from beginning to end yet gets kinda lost on non-Japanese; Life Fibers are capitalism and western influence. It's honestly pretty obvious once you think about it. Ryuuko's speech about herself is basically about modern Japan, just replace "human" with "Japanese" and "clothing" with "the world". There were also a bunch of Christian influence to Ragyou that were primarily meant to reinforce this idea but that was that.
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Rahxephon91
 Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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First, my apologies for being an ass. I'm sorry.
But...
Yes I did infer from these posts that you were implying that anyone who likes this show just must like things that are "edgy" or they don't want to use thier brain when watching anything. Sorry I may have wrongly got that message, but that's what I got and it annoyed me very much.
Plus, my points were actual points not, "actual" points. They were backed up and reasoned. Of course they were subjective, all opinions are as you are saying here.
Last edited by Rahxephon91 on Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ShatteredWorld
 Posts: 265 Location: ATL |
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One of the things I've hated about the overhype of Kill la Kill (not saying the show is bad, because it's not. Currently on the end of the first part and I give it a 7.5/10) is that people will give this show 9's and 10's and say that it is "the peak of innovation and quality" and defend the multitude of cliches and predictable moments it uses.
The same type of cliches and predictable moments that those same people will try to fault Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail for. It's just too contradictive. |
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Ranho
Posts: 68 |
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That's a pretty high score for the first part! Won't spoil nothing but if that's your score NOW you'll be bumping it up to a 9 or 10 when the second half comes around (it really improves... becomes a lot more engaging at least). Though when you think about the show overall, your final score may drop again. IF you think about the show overall. Kill la Kill did a lot of things RIGHT. But like Shingeki no Kyojin before it a lot of the fan-base seem to want to ignore the things it didn't do right. Which is fine if you know criticism from others won't rile you up and make you get into an argument. PS my overall score is a 6.5. |
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jet_
 Posts: 398 |
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None of the staff members who worked on Kill la Kill said that.
Now you're just making things up. It was never stated that "men will like you if you show off your skin". Not even between the lines.
This is unnecessary. Don't do this. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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I think you may have mis-interpreted the show in a lot of ways. Did you even watch the whole show? Because some of the opinions you're expressing give the impression of someone judging the show from a distance. First of all, regarding your point that the show's moral lesson is that stripping off more clothes = more power --- that's actually incorrect. The actual basis for the power granted by the kamui is finding a balance between clothing and the wearer. Not to mention, if you watch through episode 3, Ryuko eventually chooses not to be affected by the lack of clothing (it's something of a major point in the third episode, Satsuki gives a dialogue about not caring for the glaring eyes of society because she needs to wear the clothing in order to fulfill her goals), which has the effect of adding more clothing and power to her suit, not less. Also, Nui never sexually assaulted Satsuki, it was Ragyo, and although admittedly it was a very heavily sexually-charged scene, it was a ritual that seemed to suggest that it opened Satsuki's chakra gates, which if you've followed some of the conversation earlier, does play into some of the larger Buddhist themes that seem to run central to the context of the overall show. And as I mentioned earlier, I do think there's at least development for Ryuko's character, particularly in how she reacts to the loss of her father at the beginning of the series, and how she reacts to the loss of Senketsu at the end (which I also mentioned earlier may tie into the larger Buddhist themes referenced throughout the show). I think you may be letting your past feelings on fanservice in anime give you an unnecessarily bad impression of Kill la Kill. Kill la Kill isn't really the sort of show where otaku get "embarassed about their moe waifus". Actually, the original script-writer mentioned that he intentionally wrote the lead female characters to have what are traditionally considered male personalities, so I don't think the show can be approached quite as one-sidedly as you're trying to take it. Not to mention, the fanservice elements apply to both men and women throughout the show (it can be even argued that more male characters sport revealing clothing than female, because of Nudist Beach), and by the end of the series everyone is naked, in a way that doesn't carry any sexual charge whatsoever. Most of the people I've seen who enjoy the show like it because of the kick-ass action, plot-twists, comedy and overall suspense, and while I won't deny that fanservice plays a part in the show, I think it's handled fairly well. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11295 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Deleted a lot of posts. Some were reported as complaints about being too abrasive or butt-hurt or insulting, others were simply gross over-quotes that annoyed me.
You caught me in a bad mood, today. So if you put a lot of work in your post, just happened to quote one of the reported ones, or failed to adhere to the SIMPLE RULE and it got deleted, it's your own fault, and you need to pay more attention. |
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AlanMintaka
 Posts: 99 |
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For the last few days, ANN has been announcing that Kill La Kill Volume 1, episodes 1-4, is going on sale on 07/15/2014.
The prices at the KillLaKill website are: Blu-Ray/DVD hybrid $59.98 Blu-Ray $39.98 DVD $29.98 At the moment, RIghtStuf's prices are the same. With only 4 episodes in this Volume, you'd have to buy at total of 6 volumes at those prices to get all 24 episodes. The total runs from a little less than $240.00 for the Blu-Ray/DVD combo to a little less than $180.00 for the DVD-only. I don't think so. Is this a recent pricing strategy for new titles? I haven't been here in a while - about a year I think - but back then the prices for full series, Blu-Ray or DVD, were nowhere near this outrageous. Have things changed that much in only one year? |
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yuna49
 Posts: 3804 |
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Aniplex has been pricing its most in-demand shows at about $10/episode for Blu-ray since at least Madoka Magica if not before. So I wasn't surprised to see that Kill la Kill will cost about $250 to own. Not going to pay that, mind you, but it's pretty consistent with Aniplex's current pricing policies.
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AlanMintaka
Posts: 99 |
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Wow. Looks like Aniplex has decided commit suicide by completely alienating its USA audience. I can't imagine very many people tolerating that kind of pricing policy.
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