Forum

And so the pissing contest continues... Rolling Eyes

Normally I'd be defending the western animation fans here but both sides are being really silly about this. Like I said earlier there's enough good material on both sides of the fence both artstically and in terms of writing that there's really no need to perpetuate a false sense of superiority. At the end of the day it's all animation. This whole idea of "this show is from X country so it's amazing/shit" has never actually been accurate and it irritates me to no end that people insist on maintaining that as fact when animation in general is still pretty under-rated by the world. No matter how "mature" your show may appear to be to you it's all the same in the eyes of the public at large unfortunently.

On a side note I can genuinely say that anyone who actually thinks the fans of western shows are the reason hardcore anime fans won't give most western stuff a shot are kidding themselves. It's a straight up superiority complex thing. Though the western fans don't always exactly help things as we can see here...*sigh*

Divineking wrote:

And so the pissing contest continues... Rolling Eyes

Normally I'd be defending the western animation fans here but both sides are being really silly about this. Like I said earlier there's enough good material on both sides of the fence both artstically and in terms of writing that there's really no need to perpetuate a false sense of superiority.

Well said, things have pretty much turned into a "he said she said" perpetual argument like a dog chasing its own tail.

Note to self, don't post your personal opinions on a forum if it differed from a hive mind mentality.

@Divine: Honestly lookin at the posts I'd say "cartoon fans" are at a bigger disadvantage, defending an opinion isn't the same as insulting something.

It is sad how juvenile people are in regards to opinions about media & works of fiction.

It was never my intention to "insult anime". But it's sad people feel in turn they have to insult domestic animation to justify their own interests.

I love animation be it American, European or Japanese. I was just staring I personally feel American animation is more visually stimulating and diverse then many anime. And I am glad a more creative anime director like Yuasa is directing an episode of Adventure Time. That's all.

Nothing more, nothing less. I like colorful, creative, visually stimulating anime & toons, if that makes me a bad person, so be it.

Divineking wrote:

Normally I'd be defending the western animation fans here but both sides are being really silly about this. Like I said earlier there's enough good material on both sides of the fence both artstically and in terms of writing that there's really no need to perpetuate a false sense of superiority.

Hey dude...you apparently haven't noticed this but nobody on the so called western "side" is doing this. Not I, nor Soundmonkey44, nor Rahxephon91, nor anyone else. We all like both western animation and anime. We may think they have different general pros and cons (and you're free to disagree with that) but clearly, we all agree completely with you that there's plenty of good material in both and that neither of them is overall superior. You keep making these smug little "Everyone is an idiot but me" posts but you're actually just saying exactly what we're also saying. Which makes this whole feigned superiority to both sides quite silly, not to mention ironic.

Saw the clip. It all looks like average AT stuff untill spoiler[Finn and Jake transform into birds. That is some nice stylized animation and music as they fly!].

Divineking wrote:

No matter how "mature" your show may appear to be to you it's all the same in the eyes of the public at large unfortunately.

I think that's more true in the west than in Japan. All those large scale conventions and stores dedicated to shows like Free! and One Piece is pretty nifty Laughing

Would be pretty cool if cartoons had a culture here like animation does in Japan but sadly they don't. Animation isn't really a thing here anymore I'm afraid. Rising production costs coupled with the rise of live-action sitcoms have cannibalized the market too much that most shows have to resort to Flash and CGI to compensate. It's kind of depressing to see a mighty giant of animation fall like that.

Soundmonkey44 wrote:

I hate how anime fans take having personal preference as being ignorant &/or racist.

That goes both ways. It feels like no one can have a preference for anime or a lack of interest in western cartoons without being called a Japanophile. I've tried a lot of western animation and it all is just not for me. At this stage I just have zero interest in what the west does anymore because the general mindset of animation is for kids has ruined it for me and has led to a medium where the only non childrens animation are those adult comedies which I do not like Saying no one country is superior to the other just seems like false equality though because noting is ever truly equal in life. If that makes someone a Japanophile or gets them called having a superiority complex then fine. It's not from a lack of trying or ignorance though, it's just what gets made here is so narrow it doesn't appeal to me. I'm not going to pretend to like something just to avoid some pointless labels if people would rather name call than argue.

Jave wrote:

Animation isn't really a thing here anymore I'm afraid. Rising production costs coupled with the rise of live-action sitcoms have cannibalized the market too much that most shows have to resort to Flash and CGI to compensate. It's kind of depressing to see a mighty giant of animation fall like that.

TV animation, yes somewhat (more below). But animated films are still top of the line - that's why they can keeping animating in the hundreds of millions dollars budgets and still profit. Also, those rise of sitcoms ya mention also include the rise of animated sitcoms, although many are animated in Korea. And those CGI are actually expensive; they don't resort to it due to production costs - they use it because it's what sells, so even with the extra expense, they get their money back. And then there's the non-TV stuff non-movie stuffs.

Lavnovice9 wrote:

I've tried a lot of western animation and it all is just not for me. At this stage I just have zero interest in what the west does anymore because the general mindset of animation is for kids has ruined it for me and has led to a medium where the only non childrens animation are those adult comedies which I do not like Saying no one country is superior to the other just seems like false equality though because noting is ever truly equal in life. If that makes someone a Japanophile or gets them called having a superiority complex then fine. It's not from a lack of trying or ignorance though, it's just what gets made here is so narrow it doesn't appeal to us.

Would you believe that's actually similar what we hear people say who don't like anime or used to like anime but grew out of it? It's not their type of humor; they don't/no longer get turned on by animated figures; it's so narrow now mostly either for children or high school for otaku; it doesn't tell the adult sensibilities stories that appeal to us; there's nothing more it can offer that we can't get somewhere else, etc.

It's funny for us who help run multi-fandom cons and clubs because we'd look at a room of fans and hear what they say, then look at a different room of fans, and they're basically saying the exact same things! People are more alike than different! And we apply the same treatment to Japanese friends. Laughing

Jave wrote:

Divineking wrote:

No matter how "mature" your show may appear to be to you it's all the same in the eyes of the public at large unfortunately.

I think that's more true in the west than in Japan. All those large scale conventions and stores dedicated to shows like Free! and One Piece is pretty nifty Laughing

Would be pretty cool if cartoons had a culture here like animation does in Japan but sadly they don't. Animation isn't really a thing here anymore I'm afraid. Rising production costs coupled with the rise of live-action sitcoms have cannibalized the market too much that most shows have to resort to Flash and CGI to compensate. It's kind of depressing to see a mighty giant of animation fall like that.

Those kinds of things do exist more in Japan than they do here but that's still primarily within nerd culture so it's not any different from say Comic Con and the like here in the west. Animation is still mostly a "otaku" thing there as well outside of stuff like One Piece and as far as the general public is concerned Disney stuff is in a better light there than most late night anime. Manga is more the big thing there.

@ikillchicken The only reason I'm calling this out is because this argument should have ended a couple of pages back and like others in the thread have said it's now turned into a "he said, she said" thing and that never goes anywhere. I do mostly agree with what you guys are saying but Sound was the one who started this whole thing (and I usually agree with his opinions) so I'm calling him out on that one. Sorry if I sound like I'm being an ass though, it's just that endless debates like this tend to irritate me.

On a last note I've never really understood the whole "this is a kids show so there's nothing of value in it" mindset. Especially considering half the anime out there is technically targeting that same demographic(some less clearly than others). Don't get me wrong I know there's a lot of goofy stuff out there and some of it I watch just as a reminder not to take myself that seriously but some of it can have some pretty compelling writing when it needs to. Adventure Time itself is a heavy example of that.

Jave wrote:

Animation isn't really a thing here anymore I'm afraid. Rising production costs coupled with the rise of live-action sitcoms have cannibalized the market too much that most shows have to resort to Flash and CGI to compensate. It's kind of depressing to see a mighty giant of animation fall like that.

Could we blame the commercial failure of Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet for this downfall? Rolling Eyes

Flash animation has evolved a lot over the last decade, so I don't see a need to bash it. But I do agree the U.S. Is far too dependent on CG animation. Which is funny cause 2D animation would still be technically cheaper to make, but people just like shiny new toys I guess.

Not that there's anything wrong with CG mind you, love a fair share of Dreamwork's & Pixar's stuff myself. But yeah, more 2D like AT, Steven or Regular Show as seen on TV but in the theatre would be nice.

And I agree on the "kids shows" being lesser somehow being BS. One could easily argue nearly All media is aimed at children, be it actual children or man-children with false perception of maturity. Laughing

Look at how sexy, violent, cool my anime/movie/show is, I'm soo growed up! Laughing

But yeah, getting back on topic, AT & Yuasa, pretty much a match made in heaven! Very Happy

enurtsol wrote:

TV animation, yes somewhat (more below). But animated films are still top of the line - that's why they can keeping animating in the hundreds of millions dollars budgets and still profit.

So long as they're CG it seems. Looking at the failure of Winnie the Pooh and Princess and the Frog is staggering. I guess the public doesn't like 2D anymore.

Divineking wrote:

Those kinds of things do exist more in Japan than they do here but that's still primarily within nerd culture so it's not any different from say Comic Con and the like here in the west.

ComiCon might have a small selection of animation panels, but most of it isn't about animation. Or comics for that matter Laughing

Way too many normie shows with no ties like Big Bang Theory and Game of Thrones. It's not like Comiket that's for sure.

Quote:

On a last note I've never really understood the whole "this is a kids show so there's nothing of value in it" mindset. Especially considering half the anime out there is technically targeting that same demographic(some less clearly than others).

Well you got to remember what flies for a kids show in Japan is totally different than in the west. All those action filled shounen or those murdery mystery shows like Conan and Kindaichi Case Files. Kids anime in Japan can deal with pretty heavy subjects unlike in the west. That's probably why kids anime isn't seen as much of a negative thing like kids cartoons are. Heck, most of Adult Swim is made up of children's anime because it's just that appealing to adults I guess Wink

Writing for a children's show doesn't seem to be a creativity death sentance in Japan like it is here. Just look at Gen Urobuchi's work on Kamen Rider Gaim. Not much different than his work on Psycho Pass and Madoka, just with a fruity toy selling gimmick Laughing

L'Imperatore wrote:

Could we blame the commercial failure of Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet for this downfall? Rolling Eyes

Not sure if they're to blame or they're just a victim of a shift in the market. I just know 2D films do pretty horrible nowadays whenever they do get made. It's made companies move away from 2D films though.

Jave wrote:

I think that's more true in the west than in Japan. All those large scale conventions and stores dedicated to shows like Free! and One Piece is pretty nifty Laughing

Would be pretty cool if cartoons had a culture here like animation does in Japan but sadly they don't. Animation isn't really a thing here anymore I'm afraid. Rising production costs coupled with the rise of live-action sitcoms have cannibalized the market too much that most shows have to resort to Flash and CGI to compensate. It's kind of depressing to see a mighty giant of animation fall like that.

I find it hilarious that you call this a failing of the western cartoon industry when:

1. Anime is infamous for using gratuitous and badly-integrated CG and there are full-CG shows like Sidonia

2. In the interview conducted here between ANN and Bahi JD he says that Japanese animators also like to use flash:

Quote:

The software I use to draw the animation is Flash, you can use it just like a piece of paper and animate by hand. I don't use special digital options in Flash because I want to keep it just like the paper; the onion skin is the only option that I use, it's the digital version of a light table. Many people complain about the Pencil and Brush tool in Flash, and I agree that it's tough. But it's only tough in the sense that it's not friendly at the beginning. If you practice hard enough you can fully control the lines and draw everything you want on it. So maybe the brush is the reason why many prefer to use Photoshop or other software for animating, but in the anime industry, digital animators mostly use Flash. For some examples, Gosei Oda, Norifumi Kugai, Shingo Yamashita and many other animators work in Flash. Sometimes when I want to add a special brush stroke for some frames of my animation, I'll use Photoshop. But usually my animation line is totally completed in Flash, from rough to final lines.

I don't like cheap Flash cartoons as much as the next person but you might want to actually research what you're saying. Flash is a tool like anything else.

Jave wrote:

ComiCon might have a small selection of animation panels, but most of it isn't about animation. Or comics for that matter Laughing

Way too many normie shows with no ties like Big Bang Theory and Game of Thrones. It's not like Comiket that's for sure.

Comic-con was the example that came to mind the fastest but my point was even though Japan has a bigger animation culture than here in the west animation still isn't anymore publically accepted there than it is here outside of the super popular stuff.

Jave wrote:

Well you got to remember what flies for a kids show in Japan is totally different than in the west. All those action filled shounen or those murdery mystery shows like Conan and Kindaichi Case Files. Kids anime in Japan can deal with pretty heavy subjects unlike in the west. That's probably why kids anime isn't seen as much of a negative thing like kids cartoons are. Heck, most of Adult Swim is made up of children's anime because it's just that appealing to adults I guess Wink

Writing for a children's show doesn't seem to be a creativity death sentance in Japan like it is here. Just look at Gen Urobuchi's work on Kamen Rider Gaim. Not much different than his work on Psycho Pass and Madoka, just with a fruity toy selling gimmick Laughing

.

I still wouldn't say being targeted towards children is a "death sentence" creativity wise. We've had stuff like Megas XLR, Gargoyles, Avatar and of course Adventure Time that are targeted towards that demographic and didn't hamper their creativity in the slightest and even some of the stuff that's considered to be standard fare has some quality in there from time to time.

I will say that the greatest definitive edge for anime as opposed to western stuff it's that anime can be a lot more blatant in it's themes and writing as opposed to western stuff which usually has to be a lot more subtle about them in order to dodge media watchdogs and the like (though I do sometimes prefer that subtlety since it adds value from time to time)

Divineking wrote:

@ikillchicken The only reason I'm calling this out is because this argument should have ended a couple of pages back and like others in the thread have said it's now turned into a "he said, she said" thing and that never goes anywhere. I do mostly agree with what you guys are saying but Sound was the one who started this whole thing (and I usually agree with his opinions) so I'm calling him out on that one. Sorry if I sound like I'm being an ass though, it's just that endless debates like this tend to irritate me.

He "started it" by responding to the people who (as they always do with anything western) had immediately popped up to shit on Adventure Time. That's the absurd double standard at play here. We hear constantly from the very people now losing their shit in this thread and trying to retcon the discussion into "mean cartoon fan bashes anime" about how western animation is bad, is all for kids, and all looks simple and ugly because it doesn't look like anime. But god forbid someone says for once "Actually, I think that visual diversity is a good thing." No, then it's them "starting something". It's downright laughable.

And sorry if you find that to be "he said, she said" but when people choose to misrepresent the discussion up to this point, the only recourse is really to point out what he/she actually said.

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Ping Pong/Kick-Heart's Yuasa Directs Adventure Time Episode

This Week in Anime - What's Weekly Shonen Jump's Next Big Manga?

Voice Actor Takaaki Seki Dies at 54

The ANN Aftershow - Will You Watch Solo Leveling Season 2?

Dark Moon: The Blood Altar Volumes 1-2 Manhwa Review

Interview: Voice Actors Rika Hayashi and Hiroki Tōchi Talk About Their New Golf Anime, Tonbo!

Japanese TV Special Ranks Top Anime Songs, as Chosen by Foreign Fans

This Week in Anime - So, Is Sound Euphonium Queerbaiting or Not?

Wonderful Precure! Episodes 1-12 Anime Review

Dead Dead Demon's Dededede Destruction Part 1 Anime Film Review

Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes Game Review

Forum - View topicNEWS: Ping Pong/Kick-Heart's Yuasa Directs Adventure Time Episode

Forum

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Ping Pong/Kick-Heart's Yuasa Directs Adventure Time Episode