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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2133

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:31 am Reply with quote
Bright_Spear wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Well I think this is essentially what I was saying. There were a lot of people just hating the show for no reason, and there were a decent number of super fans too. (Some people here seem to be saying that there were NO super fans, which is really ridiculous.)


No what you said was

ChibiKangaroo wrote:
I think the vitriol in the SAO thread was driven in equal parts by haters who simply didn't like the popularity of the show, and super fans who were convinced that it was perfect.


I never said there were no super fans (even thow I would guess they were a very small minority in that thread), I pointed out that it wasn't super fans clashing with the nitpickers to get the page count that it did. So it wasn't equal parts for both groups.

The people who had the most problems with the nitpickers were people like key and DuskyPredator who aren't super crazy fans of the show that just shouted down the other side.


Those two quotes of mine don't contradict. There is no doubt that the vitriol was driven in equal parts by haters and super fans. That is how you get vitriol. If you think all of the vitriol was just haters screaming vile things at genuine, happy-go-lucky normal anime fans who are all wholesome and innocent, then you are being blissfully ignorant here. If that were the case, the haters would have all been banned and the discussion would have gone back to how wonderful the show is, and the thread would have simmered back down to finish out at like 20 pages or so like all the other threads of popular shows where everyone just gushes about how great the show is. Haters + super fans is how you get a 100 page+ thread.

Furthermore, you act like there is a bright line distinction between people "clashing with the nitpickers" and super fans. I don't think there is. It's definitely a very gray area, just like there is a gray area between a "nitpicker" and a "hater." This is all highly subjective stuff. I feel like about the only way you can really figure out if someone falls into one of the extreme camps is by looking at their overall take on the show at the end of the process. If you are dealing with a show that is clearly not perfect, or at least a show that doesn't have near universal acclaim among critics, then you should expect that any objective person will be able to acknowledge the show's obvious flaws along with the positives. If someone is only able to acknowledge the negatives, they are probably a hater. If someone is only able to acknowledge the positives, they are probably a super fan. For example, I argued quite a bit with Theron about the show. But at the end of the day, he wrote a fair review that acknowledged the negatives along with the positives, and I said I was entertained by the show and gave it a B- on both arcs due to the drawbacks. There were other people who similarly acknowledged both positives and negatives. However, there were a lot who wouldn't, so that's where the hater vs. super fan vitriol came in. As far as the gray areas though, while the show was running there was a lot of arguments back and forth where people were arguing from more of the super fan or hater side, even if that particular argument might not have encapsulated their entire overall viewpoint on the show. That added a lot to the page count too.

It's easy to try and make a highly simplistic comment about the discussion of SAO1, especially if you weren't even involved in the thread. But it was a very complex discussion covering numerous topics and numerous positive and negative aspects of the show, and I think it is more than fair to say that a one-sided rant thread would not have come even close to that page count.
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Bright_Spear



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:21 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:

There is no doubt that the vitriol was driven in equal parts by haters and super fans. That is how you get vitriol.

No, it came from regular people who wanted to just talk about the show without a flood of nitpick arguments and having everything they say dismissed because they think they know better. You trying to push in these imagined superfans the same way the nitpickers did to justify being nipicky dicks.
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
If you think all of the vitriol was just haters screaming vile things at genuine, happy-go-lucky normal anime fans who are all wholesome and innocent, then you are being blissfully ignorant here. If that were the case, the haters would have all been banned and the discussion would have gone back to how wonderful the show is,

And again, I never said they were just screaming and carrying on. The problems with these people have been already said in this thread.
And your assertion that if the nitpickers left, the thread would have just become how wonderful the show is, just shows how blind you are to most of the people in that thread. Most had no problems bringing up things that were wrong with the show. We just weren't going to go along with the "if you didn't regard it as total trash, then your viewpoint was worthless" arguments.

So I can safely that most of the people who went against them were not superfans, blinded to the flaws in the show. They were just regular viewers tired of being bombarded by nitpicks that would be quickly forgotten when the next show aired.
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誤称



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 534

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:32 pm Reply with quote
That's pretty much why I didn't bother posting to the Mahouka thread, I didn't want to have the bad taste that was left due to the SAO thread on another anime.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2133

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:33 pm Reply with quote
Bright_Spear wrote:

No, it came from regular people who wanted to just talk about the show without a flood of nitpick arguments and having everything they say dismissed because they think they know better. You trying to push in these imagined superfans the same way the nitpickers did to justify being nipicky dicks.


You probably don't realize this, but you are falling right into the "gray area" I was discussing in my above post. It is a gray area between a normal fan and a super fan. You come up with this term to describe this perceived "other side" of the argument. The term in this instance is, "the nit pickers." Essentially, this term is used to describe anyone who is raising issues about the show in the thread and saying that those issues detract from the show. A person raises issue A, and the response is "stop nit picking." A person raises issue B, and you say "they're just nit picking." It becomes a catch all response to all criticism. So then, as you continue to assert that all of these people are just nit pickers who are nit picking something "to death" or whatever the terminology is, you move more and more to the super-fan side of the gray area because as you've acknowledged, you can't bring yourself to identify the negatives about the show because you don't want the "nit pickers" to have any valid points. As long as the "nit pickers" are around, you have to hold firm against them. As I said, it creates an environment where people who might not normally be full-on superfans are acting like they are. In that way, an argument which could be only a page long if people are willing to acknowledge positives and negatives becomes 20 pages long because people take hardened positions and label the other side as "nit pickers" for example. So this is why I am saying that the vitriol and flame wars were caused by a mixture of both extremes, because people willingly put themselves into camps of one side or another, rather than simply being logical about acknowledging both positives and negatives.
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Bright_Spear



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:51 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Bright_Spear wrote:

No, it came from regular people who wanted to just talk about the show without a flood of nitpick arguments and having everything they say dismissed because they think they know better. You trying to push in these imagined superfans the same way the nitpickers did to justify being nipicky dicks.


You probably don't realize this, but you are falling right into the "gray area" I was discussing in my above post. It is a gray area between a normal fan and a super fan. You come up with this term to describe this perceived "other side" of the argument. The term in this instance is, "the nit pickers." Essentially, this term is used to describe anyone who is raising issues about the show in the thread and saying that those issues detract from the show. A person raises issue A, and the response is "stop nit picking." A person raises issue B, and you say "they're just nit picking." It becomes a catch all response to all criticism. So then, as you continue to assert that all of these people are just nit pickers who are nit picking something "to death" or whatever the terminology is, you move more and more to the super-fan side of the gray area because as you've acknowledged, you can't bring yourself to identify the negatives about the show because you don't want the "nit pickers" to have any valid points. As long as the "nit pickers" are around, you have to hold firm against them. As I said, it creates an environment where people who might not normally be full-on superfans are acting like they are. In that way, an argument which could be only a page long if people are willing to acknowledge positives and negatives becomes 20 pages long because people take hardened positions and label the other side as "nit pickers" for example. So this is why I am saying that the vitriol and flame wars were caused by a mixture of both extremes, because people willingly put themselves into camps of one side or another, rather than simply being logical about acknowledging both positives and negatives.

And you're just using the "grey area" to lump people into superfan area to dismiss the problems we had with these people. When people talk about the nitpickers in the SAO thread, we aren't talking about everyone that had something bad to say about the show. Its the people who hate watched the show every week looking for anything to complain about, and say how crap our taste was in liking such a show.

Most often, when a nitpicker brought up a legitimate problem with the show and people agreed, it would be tossed to the side because they couldn't use it anymore to show how superior they were.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2133

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:58 pm Reply with quote
Bright_Spear wrote:

And you're just using the "grey area" to lump people into superfan area to dismiss the problems we had with these people. When people talk about the nitpickers in the SAO thread, we aren't talking about everyone that had something bad to say about the show. Its the people who hate watched the show every week looking for anything to complain about, and say how crap our taste was in liking such a show.

Most often, when a nitpicker brought up a legitimate problem with the show and people agreed, it would be tossed to the side because they couldn't use it anymore to show how superior they were.


Comments from people hate-watching a show are not going to create a thread that spans well over 100 pages. It's just not possible. I don't know the full number of people who were hate watching. I don't think you've identified them either. However, I would be willing to bet that it was only a small amount, similar in size to the full on super fans. As I said, I think the page count was boosted by the interaction between them and super fans, and I think a large portion of the page count was also created by people in the gray area. If you don't agree fine, but it seems like you were saying you weren't even involved in the discussion at the time so I'm not sure how you can make that assessment. I think if you were to go back through the thread right now and read through it, you would see a whole lot of people in the gray area I identified, whether they were fans or not, and that was driving a lot of the discussion because they were taking hardened positions and not willing to acknowledge other points.
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誤称



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 534

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:02 pm Reply with quote
Mahouka's up to 18 pages of nothing but hatewatchers spewing talking points at each other. 100 is easily attainable.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2133

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:10 pm Reply with quote
誤称 wrote:
Mahouka's up to 18 pages of nothing but hatewatchers spewing talking points at each other. 100 is easily attainable.


18 pages after 14 episodes? That's child's play. By episode 14, SAO was on page 73! ;0 There's just no comparison. Plus, I didn't even realize just how long the SAO thread has gotten. For some reason I was just thinking of 100+ but it seems like it is actually at 272 right now lol. It was at 220 by the end of the Japanese run, and the Toonami run took it to 272. This goes well beyond a group of haters simply intruding and spewing hate.
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Bright_Spear



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:18 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Comments from people hate-watching a show are not going to create a thread that spans well over 100 pages.
It's just not possible.

Then you've just haven't been on the internet long enough. I've seen threads go on for longer by one person out of spite and and not wanting to be seen as wrong. Basically your criteria for superfan is nonsensical and the same as they use. Don't agree with something they complain about. Just a superfan blinded to the flaws of the show.

If you want to use superfan as a catch all then go ahead. The one's complaining about the nitpickers can point out who they were and exactly why they were nitpickers.
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
but it seems like you were saying you weren't even involved in the discussion at the time so I'm not sure how you can make that assessment.

I read along as it was going on the whole time. I've read through all 272 so I believe I can make that assessment as much as anyone else.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2133

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:36 pm Reply with quote
Bright_Spear wrote:

Then you've just haven't been on the internet long enough. I've seen threads go on for longer by one person out of spite and and not wanting to be seen as wrong. Basically your criteria for superfan is nonsensical and the same as they use. Don't agree with something they complain about. Just a superfan blinded to the flaws of the show.


Well we're not talking about "the internet" in general here. We are dealing with an ANN forum. This is not some simpleton website where the admins are all trolls and ignoramuses. ANN does a pretty good job with moderating threads. I'm not going to keep arguing with you about how some other website could have one or two people fill up 200 pages with rant. That just doesn't happen here, and it didn't happen with SAO. It was a joint effort.
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Bright_Spear



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:47 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Bright_Spear wrote:

Then you've just haven't been on the internet long enough. I've seen threads go on for longer by one person out of spite and and not wanting to be seen as wrong. Basically your criteria for superfan is nonsensical and the same as they use. Don't agree with something they complain about. Just a superfan blinded to the flaws of the show.


Well we're not talking about "the internet" in general here. We are dealing with an ANN forum. This is not some simpleton website where the admins are all trolls and ignoramuses. ANN does a pretty good job with moderating threads. I'm not going to keep arguing with you about how some other website could have one or two people fill up 200 pages with rant. That just doesn't happen here, and it didn't happen with SAO. It was a joint effort.

And again your trying to twist it to the way you want it to go. You want to group anyone who argued with them as just superfans, instead of regular watchers tired of all crap they had to keep going on about. You also can't get that most of the time they didn't do anything to be moderated(except for a couple instances). They were just horribly annoying. And I can't fault anyone getting tired of it after so many pages of "OMG! Where's kirito's new sword! We had a whole ep about it! PLOT HOLE!" and " That's not illusion magic! Such shitty writing!"

Its easy to see why it went as long as it did.
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leatherhead333



Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 1049
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:56 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

And while I did have an overall negative view of the first season, that was because I genuinely felt as though the show was really that bad. However, it's worth pointing out that I initially liked it. Yep, lost in the fog of time is the fact that I actually kinda enjoyed the show at first. I liked episode four with that loli character (who totally does not look like his sister; you lied Kirito you lying bastard), I loved the heck out of the Gleam Eyes fight, and I thought a few other episodes were pretty good too. Like the two-parter PK mystery and the second episode where Kirito meets Asuna and they kick arse together. It was only in later episodes - approximately starting with Kuradeel(SP?) - where I really started getting pissed off at the show.

Anyway, this will probably be my last post in this here thread - after all, I'm not even following the GGO arc, so it makes little sense for me to be here - so sayonara and happy watching. And I mean that without a trace of sarcasm. If you like a particular anime then don't let anyone tell you that you're wrong for liking it. Not your friends, not your family, and certainly not a stranger on the internet. Not anyone.


I love you Very Happy

I completely agree with this. There is a clear difference between people who intentionally say "this sucks and if you don't think this doesn't suck you suck" and those who often nitpick but still had some attachment to the show at some point. You can use The World is Still Beautiful thread as an example. I myself was liking the series very much at the start but about midway through I found myself becoming increasingly unsatisfied with it as things went on. "Certain folks" complained about my and others nitpicks but i believe we all admitted that the show still had a hook on us and there were aspects we still liked.

I also believe in giving shows a fair shot. If i can tell there will be nothing I'll like about a show I USUALLY will drop it from the first episode. So if I continue to watch it that means there is something that I liked about it. I do have an issue of not being able to drop shows though so there are exceptions.

But really I don't see a problem with people who bring up valid issues they have with a show each episode. As long as they are being reasonable about it I never had a problem with it. In fact i love that stuff. Shows that have nothing but praise in them really don't consist of any meaningful discussions. If someone has a problem with the story that leads to a discussion, which also leads to many theories of what is to come. Current example being Aldnoah.Zero. The current subject of the comments spawned from someone having a problem with the story. And as a result it already has 6 pages of discussion (it could have had more but there were people starting flame wars sadly Rolling Eyes). And i enjoy reading peoples opinions on the matter. People are generally respectful here (at least compared to other places).

Heck there are nitpickers that attack my favorite shows and i don't mind them at all. If they bring up issues i will engage them in conversation on why i feel differently. Simple as that. Plus I'm VERY capable of accepting when I'm wrong about something if I'm bringing up logic i think is stuff or unjustified. And if it comes down to "I still like this despite what you've said" I back down because it isn't my place to decide what people watch. Mahoka started off promisingly but near the end of the first arc pretty much dashed my expectations for it. Yeah I complain in that thread a lot but I'd say most of them are justified and reasonable. For an adaptation anime it is quite bad. For an anime in general? Opinions vary. And that's cool. But complaining that I'm bringing up my concerns?

Don't like it? Tough. Just ignore it or attempt to engage in conversation. I know some people aren't quite that reasonable but those are people you shouldn't even be acknowledging in the first place. Given that some of you have been on the internet for a decent about of time I don't see why it bothers you anymore Twisted Evil
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2133

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:04 pm Reply with quote
@Bright_Spear

As I said, I am going to stop arguing this point with you because it's not going anywhere. However, I do find it ironic that this argument is a decent display of what I've been explaining in the context of SAO, with me trying to assert a middle of the road position (i.e. acknowledging faults on both sides) and you taking a more absolutist position on one side ;0
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Bright_Spear



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:22 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
@Bright_Spear

As I said, I am going to stop arguing this point with you because it's not going anywhere. However, I do find it ironic that this argument is a decent display of what I've been explaining in the context of SAO, with me trying to assert a middle of the road position and you taking a more absolutist position on one side ;0

It might be a middle of the road position to you but a gross oversimplification of what happened and who was the most at fault for it. Did the regular viewers add to the page count by responding to the hate watchers? Yes, but it was the hate watchers that kept it going for their own purposes.

If you were a regular at a restaurant and every day some guy comes in, takes one bite of food then bitches for hours that its the most horrible thing he has ever eaten, you wouldn't be equally at fault for the arguments you have with him. You can fall back on just saying that you should just ignore him because he has every right to do so. But the guy knows he doesn't like the food, but chooses to go anyway to "show off" his superior culinary tastes, and generally be a dick to everyone there.
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Kruszer
Enjoying the time of EVEEnjoying the time of EVE


Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Location: Minnesota, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:12 pm Reply with quote
^Agreed.

Criticism is one thing, then there's whining, which is another. What's the difference? The first one at least tries to present the illusion of marginal objectivity by bringing up the things they liked about the show/episode in addition to what they didn't, whereas the latter is just a constant stream from Negative Nancy Nitpicker Niagara Falls that only other trolls want to read.
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