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AsherFischell



Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:20 pm Reply with quote
On a side note, how do you feel about Violence Jack?

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You're missing very important piece of info here. Dr.Hell is not a robot engineer, Juuzo is. Dr.Hell is a biochemist (He revived Ashura and Brocken). If Juuzo joined him, he would literally complement him by letting him work on the mechanical beasts. They're not the same genius. Kenzo Kabuto too is a robot engineer, which is why Dr.Hell also wanted him on his side.


That's irrelevant to what I'm trying to demonstrate. You're stating that Dr. Hell decided not to tell anyone else in the entire world about the invasion because Juuzo refused to join him. I get that Juuzo would have been extremely helpful in Dr. Hell's plans, but him not joining up isn't equivalent to Dr. Hell deciding that literally noone else on the planet would be of any use to him.

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Tsubasa didn't know of the invasion. Dr.Hell knew she was trouble, preferred not to tell her anything.


That gets to the root of why I believe it to be a plothole. You're assuming that he preferred to not tell her, which is a safe assumption to make, but I simply don't buy that a preference to keep Tsubasa out of it would make him completely keep it to himself. Instead, he makes absolutely no effort to ensure that the very world he wants to take over will still exist.

I accept that his main goal is world domination, but would he be so willing to just sit back and let his world be taken from him? As one of your screencaps shows, he was okay with the world being taken over if he did indeed die, but he barely even tried to safeguard himself or the future he wished to create. It basically pops into existence when the plot finds it necessary instead of being hardwired into the story and THAT'S what I believe makes it a plothole.

I mean, there were plenty of better ways for him to satisfy some conditions for both of his goals. He could've taken over a country, informed the citizens of the invasion and then allied himself with the other countries. Once the threat of invasion vanished, he would have had an even more solid power base than he started with. His complete disinterest in the invasion leads me to believe that the writers weren't even really thinking about it and just wanted to throw it in to be a big, dark cliffhanger. If his decisions had seemed even somewhat informed by what was to come, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, but it seems to me that he ignored some very important things strictly for plot convenience.

What I'm trying to get across is this: I simply don't accept that he would behave the way he did with the knowledge he had.

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You're wrong. Episode 1 has two parts. The first part, which consists like 5 mins is the introduction where the Daishogun has already come down to earth. The rest of episode 1 with all the scenes from the entire show is what you're referring to. My screenshot is from the first part of it, not the second.


and

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Except he did tell Ankokuji.


I didn't remember any of that at all, so you've got me there. I probably shouldn't be arguing when I only watched the show a single time a couple of years ago, but it's rare to find someone online willing to argue for the hell of it without the conversation devolving into frustrated hostilities.
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SantaBla



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:07 pm Reply with quote
AsherFischell wrote:
On a side note, how do you feel about Violence Jack?

Violence Jack is a testbed for Go Nagai's ideas. I enjoyed the ovas for what they were, but that's about it. The manga is more interesting than what the ovas would lead you to believe.

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That's irrelevant to what I'm trying to demonstrate. You're stating that Dr. Hell decided not to tell anyone else in the entire world about the invasion because Juuzo refused to join him. I get that Juuzo would have been extremely helpful in Dr. Hell's plans, but him not joining up isn't equivalent to Dr. Hell deciding that literally noone else on the planet would be of any use to him.

Um, why do you think Dr.Hell revived Stroheim? He was to act as a replacement for Juuzo.
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That gets to the root of why I believe it to be a plothole. You're assuming that he preferred to not tell her, which is a safe assumption to make, but I simply don't buy that a preference to keep Tsubasa out of it would make him completely keep it to himself. Instead, he makes absolutely no effort to ensure that the very world he wants to take over will still exist.

That assumption is backed by the fact that Tsubasa can see through him. His first step was to subjugate Japan by force first. In any war, a side doesn't completely get wiped out.

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I accept that his main goal is world domination, but would he be so willing to just sit back and let his world be taken from him? As one of your screencaps shows, he was okay with the world being taken over if he did indeed die, but he barely even tried to safeguard himself or the future he wished to create. It basically pops into existence when the plot finds it necessary instead of being hardwired into the story and THAT'S what I believe makes it a plothole.

Trying to subjugate Japan by force is one way to safeguard himself. So you can't say he barely tried. You should probably realize by now that Dr.Hell is very selfish and that if he doesn't get what he wants, he might as well not let anyone else have it. You talk about safeguarding, but Dr.Hell had an entire army of mechanical beasts at his disposal. He was very confident in his abilities. Again, I don't see plotholes here.

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I mean, there were plenty of better ways for him to satisfy some conditions for both of his goals. He could've taken over a country, informed the citizens of the invasion and then allied himself with the other countries. Once the threat of invasion vanished, he would have had an even more solid power base than he started with.

Here's another key thing you're missing. The military is completely helpless against his forces as portrayed in episode 23. If the military is helpless against him, what makes you think it's even a good idea to get other countries involved when we all know in advance that they stand zero chance against the Mycenaean?

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His complete disinterest in the invasion

He wasn't. That's why he tried so hard to invade Japan. If he could defeat Mazinger, then there is literally no one else who could stand before him. It would literally be a cakewalk in the other countries.

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leads me to believe that the writers weren't even really thinking about it and just wanted to throw it in to be a big, dark cliffhanger. If his decisions had seemed even somewhat informed by what was to come

What he says and knows though, are already consistent with his decisions. You don't need his inner dialogue to explain this even further. That stuff is already out there.
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I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, but it seems to me that he ignored some very important things strictly for plot convenience.
What I'm trying to get across is this: I simply don't accept that he would behave the way he did with the knowledge he had.

Which is where I completely disagree with you. The knowledge he had (the known mechanical beasts at his disposal) meant that there was no reason for him to even bother telling anyone else about the invasion. In fact, destroying Japan's military like that puts fear in their hearts which should speed up his subjugation goals.

You could have chosen to do otherwise, but to me, given Dr.Hell's personality (being very confident), his decisions make all the sense in the world. The only real threat to his world conquest were Mazinger Z and Tsubasa.
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AsherFischell



Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:35 pm Reply with quote
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Um, why do you think Dr.Hell revived Stroheim? He was to act as a replacement for Juuzo.


Once again, I'm not even talking about Juuzo. I was just responding to your point about him being the only one Dr. Hell reached out to.

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If the military is helpless against him, what makes you think it's even a good idea to get other countries involved when we all know in advance that they stand zero chance against the Mycenaean?


Because he's the one man with the required knowledge to stop the invasion from happening in the first place. That's my entire point. It doesn't even matter in the long run, because he has the ability to basically stop the invasion, but he chooses not to because the plot calls for it to happen anyway.

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What he says and knows though, are already consistent with his decisions. You don't need his inner dialogue to explain this even further. That stuff is already out there.


I just don't see it that way, though. To me, it didn't feel consistent.

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Which is where I completely disagree with you. The knowledge he had (the known mechanical beasts at his disposal) meant that there was no reason for him to even bother telling anyone else about the invasion.


Yeah, that's the key point we don't agree on. You think that he would have no reason to share his knowledge about the invasion (and him knowing how to stop it from happening) while I personally can't see why he wouldn't. I don't really have anything else to say on the matter, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Nice discussing with you.
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SantaBla



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:42 am Reply with quote
AsherFischell wrote:

Once again, I'm not even talking about Juuzo. I was just responding to your point about him being the only one Dr. Hell reached out to.

He did reach out to Stroheim as well, which is my point. He didn't stop looking for allies after Juuzo was done with him.

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Because he's the one man with the required knowledge to stop the invasion from happening in the first place. That's my entire point. It doesn't even matter in the long run, because he has the ability to basically stop the invasion, but he chooses not to because the plot calls for it to happen anyway.

That's not what I got from the show. He chooses not to, because it goes in line with his selfishness and confidence that he portrayed throughout the show. Not because the plot was going to call for it later.

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Yeah, that's the key point we don't agree on. You think that he would have no reason to share his knowledge about the invasion (and him knowing how to stop it from happening) while I personally can't see why he wouldn't. I don't really have anything else to say on the matter, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Nice discussing with you.

I've already explained this. If he doesn't get to conquer the world, then his will is to not let anyone else have it. Sharing his knowledge about the invasion can also mean that if the earth army actually manages to repel the invasion, then the world will be fine and dandy. Dr.Hell is not OK with that.
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