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Answerman - Pain in the Neck


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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:31 am Reply with quote
Yeah there's no ideal solution for archiving. As far as media life time goes, nothing beats discs, but of course the problem is capacity, although I hope the aforementioned archive Sony/Panasonic disc format coming soon would help.

A problem with LTO-x tapes is that you need multiple tapes in rotation to provide durability, since backing up to the same tapes regularly (or even reading from them) absolutely kills them. Whatever is your backup frequency is that many more x tapes you need for the same capacity. But at that point, the cost effectiveness is way less than hard drives for continuous backup needs. Some companies are moving away from tapes for this reason. 6TB HDs are out now for $300 and pricing and capacity is finally progressing with new tech, and if you need to refresh data or require a live redundant copy, some companies can just do away with tapes altogether.

I agree that with really big data needs, third party services are probably the way to go, at least for a secondary off-site back up. I looked into Amazon Glacier, but I hate their TOS. They have the same clause prohibiting using it to store any content that is offensive.
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Asterisk-CGY



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:04 pm Reply with quote
So is there a reason we can't use Bitorrent for archiving? Have everyone who cares support part of the archive with it constantly bantering about online so there's no single point of failure to completely ruin everything?
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:56 pm Reply with quote
@configspace: Video is probably as perfect for tape backup as you can get. Once you've finished everything, there's not much reason to overwrite it.

@Asterisk-CGY: Wikileaks released an "insurance" torrent full of unredacted classified data in case things went south. That's probably the closest example there is, whatever its fate. In practicality, bittorrent would probably be involved at most in keeping backup sites in sync or bringing new ones online.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:08 pm Reply with quote
On the subject of jury duty, I think the system we have here in Massachusetts works pretty well: one day or one trial. I've had days when I wasn't called and could leave around lunchtime. I've also sat on a jury, but our "one trial" took only a couple of hours, so it was essentially a one-day experience as well.

Of course, you could end up on a murder trial and be sequestered for days. Hasn't happened to me yet.
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Barbobot



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 460
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:48 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
On the subject of jury duty, I think the system we have here in Massachusetts works pretty well: one day or one trial. I've had days when I wasn't called and could leave around lunchtime. I've also sat on a jury, but our "one trial" took only a couple of hours, so it was essentially a one-day experience as well.

Of course, you could end up on a murder trial and be sequestered for days. Hasn't happened to me yet.


That's what almost happened to me when I was going to school in MA. My one and only time I've been called for jury duty so far and it was gonna be for a murder trial they expected to last 2 weeks. Luckily I wasn't picked and was able to go home mid-day and I was done.
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EyeOfPain



Joined: 14 May 2013
Posts: 312
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:52 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
EyeOfPain wrote:
Huh, didn't think LTO was used for much outside backup applications.

That's why I said "video _archive_". These systems use the tapes as long term archive and have hard drive arrays for anything that needs to be accessed. So yeah, they are just being used as specialized backup, and presumably the underlying data are just video capture files.
Ah, got it. I was thinking more along the lines of "data warehousing" when you said "video archive." My bad.
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samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:26 am Reply with quote
Asterisk-CGY wrote:
So is there a reason we can't use Bitorrent for archiving? Have everyone who cares support part of the archive with it constantly bantering about online so there's no single point of failure to completely ruin everything?


I kind of like that idea but you'd have to change the protocol I think.
Something more like winny/share/perfect dark would work, where each user puts aside a portion of their storage for caching files in the sharing cloud, even if they aren't actively downloading/uploading them specifically.

Thinking about that, you could probably come up with some kind of peer-2-peer data archive protocol, which is optimized for redundancy instead of download speed. But it would have to be heavily encrypted and damn near impregnable before I think anyone would trust using something like that for backing up important data of any sort. Plus the copyright implications are gray area at best.

But I could imagine a p2p protocol that allows you to upload files into the p2p network, and where ONLY YOU can download them back. In exchange you give a portion of your hard drive space to the cloud for other people to use... By setting a ratio of like, 4-5 times the space required per upload capacity, you can make sure there's enough redundancy.

Interesting idea, at least. Not gonna work for 10s of TB and above though, that's for sure.
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The Mad Manga Massacre



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 1166
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:26 am Reply with quote
On the subject of RWBY. THEIR HANDS LITERALLY GO THROUGH THINGS! This isn't a one time occurrence, this happens rather frequently. It's possible to have a small budget and put in actual effort. I'd understand stiff animation or if these people weren't being paid and this were some art school project but this isn't. I don't expect everything I watch to be a masterpiece but I expect at least an honest effort!
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:54 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Thinking about that, you could probably come up with some kind of peer-2-peer data archive protocol, which is optimized for redundancy instead of download speed. But it would have to be heavily encrypted and damn near impregnable before I think anyone would trust using something like that for backing up important data of any sort. Plus the copyright implications are gray area at best.
Sounds very much like Freenet, though with the caveat that files not accessed often enough can disappear, so you'd have to keep requesting them to keep them alive.
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Asterisk-CGY



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:48 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Asterisk-CGY wrote:
So is there a reason we can't use Bitorrent for archiving? Have everyone who cares support part of the archive with it constantly bantering about online so there's no single point of failure to completely ruin everything?


I kind of like that idea but you'd have to change the protocol I think.
Something more like winny/share/perfect dark would work, where each user puts aside a portion of their storage for caching files in the sharing cloud, even if they aren't actively downloading/uploading them specifically.

Thinking about that, you could probably come up with some kind of peer-2-peer data archive protocol, which is optimized for redundancy instead of download speed. But it would have to be heavily encrypted and damn near impregnable before I think anyone would trust using something like that for backing up important data of any sort. Plus the copyright implications are gray area at best.

But I could imagine a p2p protocol that allows you to upload files into the p2p network, and where ONLY YOU can download them back. In exchange you give a portion of your hard drive space to the cloud for other people to use... By setting a ratio of like, 4-5 times the space required per upload capacity, you can make sure there's enough redundancy.

Interesting idea, at least. Not gonna work for 10s of TB and above though, that's for sure.


I feel like part of this archival process is allowing the public access to the content. This isn't to save it for the company for eternity, this is about keeping around content for the sake of history.
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:03 pm Reply with quote
Justin Sevakis wrote:
For what it's worth, JVC tried to market D-VHS, which was an all-digital, HD-ready VHS format, to the general public back in 2005.[…] Blu-ray and HD-DVD came along two years later.

A small correction: the first commercial BD releases were in 2006, not 2007.
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