Forum - View topicREVIEW: Terra Formars GN 1
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Levitz9
 Posts: 1022 Location: Puerto Rico |
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Even if the mangaka's intent wasn't racist in nature, he's failed to be accountable for making design choices that could offend people.
Yeah, I'm going to say it: writers in Japan ought to have a bit more awareness about how people worldwide will react to their works. Especially when they let their stuff get licensed in the U.S. Japan doesn't have a history of prejudice against black people, hence why they don't have any stigmas towards blackface, but if they're going to make their stuff available to a worldwide audience, they ought to read up a little. Go ahead and design your characters as you will, but at least acknowledge somewhere that you know how offensive it might be and that there was no malicious intent behind it all. Nobody here wants censorship, after all. We just want accountability. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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This is a good point. Unfortunately I'm sure the excusers will ignore it, but yea it ties in with the fact that the reason why the cocroach guys are offensive (just like the racist stereotypes) is that they overly emphasize certain features in a way that is offensive. They could all be based on the same thing or different things, but the offensive depictions overly exaggerate things in a way that is offensive (again, that is the nature of caricature). I hate making the same point over and over ;0 |
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Beatdigga
 Posts: 4364 Location: New York |
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Pretty much this. This is still, even if done completely innocently, massively ignorant and reflects poorly when the product is exported. For their sakes, I hope the anime version addresses this. |
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Ali07
 Posts: 3333 Location: Victoria, Australia |
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While I've not read, nor plan to read, Terraformars (nothing to do with what has overtaken discussion on this thread), this thread has been an interesting read. I can actually see what both sides are seeing with the depictions.
ChibiKangaroo's image from this manga didn't come off to me as a portrayal of a black African man, I do see a face of a being I'd see in an evolutionary cycle of a human...but, Zac's does seem like a stereotypical portrayal of black African-Americans. There is something I kind of want to address...which is off-topic.
I'd say that is an unfair expectation to hurl onto a writer. It'd be awfully considerate of them to think of all the other cultures that may make up a potential international audience. So, they could probably plan for that, but when they're trying to get their work published...they'd be focused creating something for their target audience, which is a Japanese audience. One that holds the same cultural values the writer does. There's been a lot of things that I've read and seen that have given me the impression (rightly or wrongly) that many within Japan don't give much thought to those outside of their country/culture. So I do think that the potential is there when it comes to the writer, intentionally or unintentionally, not caring...thinking that their cultural values are "universally right". And, there is the potential for it to enter their thought process after they actually know that their work is going to be seen by an international audience. It could be reflected in later volumes, but whatever has seen print in Japan, before a licensing decision has been made, would probably not see a lot of changes made (if any) when it is passed on for print overseas. Also, I do wonder how much say a writer and artist team or mangaka has when it comes to their work being licensed overseas. Sure, there may be some big names out there that could say that they don't want their stuff to be licensed, but I would think that most cases would be what the publisher wants done.
So, guilty until proven innocent. That's a nice way to go about judging someone based on their work of fiction. Should also take into consideration what you mentioned earlier:
I'd say, that could give one reason to have the impression that there was no malicious intent in this work whatsoever. Rather, this seems like a clash between what is/isn't culturally acceptable and the reaction to someone's work from the viewpoint of those from a different cultural background. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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By lack of history of prejudice, I assume he/she was referring to a history of slavery or jim crow laws against black people. However, as I outlined in detail in a previous post, Japan does have a history of ignorantly adopting racially offensive caricatures and stereotypes about black people. Again, this is just another example of that. Even if the author was not intending to be a racist (which is such a strange condition to impose on a discussion. How many people out there say "Yea, I want to be a racist!!"), his work and his failure to understand the offensive nature of these depictions is probably due in large part to his ignorance in regard to the racial stereotypes. Again, this has been an issue in Japan for some time. |
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Levitz9
Posts: 1022 Location: Puerto Rico |
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By lack of history of prejudice, I assume he/she was referring to a history of slavery or jim crow laws against black people. However, as I outlined in detail in a previous post, Japan does have a history of ignorantly adopting racially offensive caricatures and stereotypes about black people. Again, this is just another example of that. Even if the author was not intending to be a racist (which is such a strange condition to impose on a discussion. How many people out there say "Yea, I want to be a racist!!"), his work and his failure to understand the offensive nature of these depictions is probably due in large part to his ignorance in regard to the racial stereotypes. Again, this has been an issue in Japan for some time.[/quote] ^ What ChibiKangaroo said. Sorry about that, I ought to have been clearer with that.
I'm not talking about a values judgment on the author, but you know what? I'm going to stand by what I said. I've taken journalism classes, and if it's one thing I've learned, it's that words have meanings and that you need to take responsibility for what you say, regardless of how you meant it, when people get offended. If you have to do something that might set people off, have a point for it. In this guy's case, he didn't know better--and that's okay, up until the point where he didn't do anything about it. Ignorance doesn't excuse you from anything. If I made an off-color joke about eating disorders in front of someone who had suffered one, my not knowing that they had suffered from ED wouldn't absolve me from having made a bad joke to someone who resented it. Again, writers are responsible for the stuff they make. |
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Apollo-kun
 Posts: 1213 Location: City 7, Macross 7 |
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Has anybody thrown around the term "social-justice warrior" yet and patted themselves on the back, thinking that using that wins an argument? It's always really cute when that happens.
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Apollo-kun
Posts: 1213 Location: City 7, Macross 7 |
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"Hey, you guys, it's just a multi-million dollar form of entertainment that's massively popular in its country of origin and can totally help reinforce negative stereotypes and negative treatment of women! What's the big deal?" |
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Shippoyasha
Posts: 459 |
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I don't think the manga comes across as sexist or racist as all. Just stark, dangerous and scary as a world building goes for a manga.
There's a lot of chapters later on that makes Roaches and female characters extremely centric to the plot. I think some people are just so itching for the next big outrage in anime, there's a lack of benefit of the doubt for what's to come in the story. And jumping the gun and declaring it as sexist/racist out of the bat is seriously uncalled for. If people are turned off by the initial impression, then feel free to air out the qualm. But don't jump the gun and go on the offensive right out of the bat. Or just stay away from the franchise if it offends the senses to be partial and fair enough for a proper critique. It's okay if not everything is to everyone's palates. That's perfectly understandable. |
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Ali07
Posts: 3333 Location: Victoria, Australia |
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In all honesty, beyond the Japanese seemingly not having much stigma when it comes to the use of racially stereotypical portrayals in media, I don't know much. Is it an issue within Japan or is it something that those outside have a problem with? Because, outside of some quotes from academics in the articles you posted, to me it seems more like they don't have much of a problem with what they are doing, but others outside of the country do. Just something that I'm thinking. It wouldn't justify someone racially stereotyping, but it does shed a little light on cultural backgrounds. As I said earlier, many find what their culture does to be "universally right". While that does expose some ignorance on the issue, people are a product of their environment. Which is why I look for intent over perception, and I doubt that one volumes worth of work can clearly establish the intent of a writer. I'd be looking to the various volumes that follow, just to be able to get a more fully formed picture. Especially since the bugmen are the antagonists in this story...or is that actually the humans? 
While I agree, many could be placing an intent on this work that was never there. Again, cultural values comes into play. It's always hard for someone to own up to something they don't see as being wrong. The values one holds can be viewed as "universally right", so the writer may not see anything wrong with the depiction. If he wants to come out and state what he intended with this depiction, I'd welcome that. But to impose on him a "responsibility", that he doesn't even know he's meant to have, to "own up" to this is a bit rich. I guess what I'm getting to is, your perception isn't always the reality. Personally, I try to look at intent over perception. And, if intent is based around ignorance, then you educate. Trying to get someone to own up and apologise for you being offended by something they did/said, in my experience, is met with hostility. Once it gets to that point, which can be right off the bat, you've already lost them and they'll continue to be ignorant to the issue because they saw nothing "wrong" with what they did. Then, in the end, you've accomplished nothing. So, I do wonder why people must know his intent behind the depiction of the bugmen. Is it all down to the perception you now have, of a person that you've never met, and you're looking for justification or do you want to be proven wrong? |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I think the articles made clear that there are on the one hand large numbers within the Japanese population who have been largely ignorant to the racially offensive nature of the stereotypes and caricatures, and have just thought they were entertaining, and on the other hand, a certain number of educators and civil rights workers within the Japanese population that have tried to notify people of those offensive things. That's what you see with the example of the post office campaign using the blackface chef with frying pan. Some rights workers notified the government after the campaign had been going on. It's similar with the essay by the Japanese student. He criticizes lots of his fellow citizens for desiring these clownish, entertaining black people who act stupid and don't speak Japanese well. He says that a black person who seems educated and speaks Japanese well probably wouldn't get a good job on TV, because people might be uncomfortable about that since it wouldn't fit the stereotype. As I said before though, I do think that is primarily an ignorance problem. It is also a problem of the general insular nature of Japanese society. Most of the articles acknowledged that Japan has exhibited stereotyping of pretty much any group that is not Japanese, due to the almost completely homogeneous nature of Japan. In America, we are just more sensitive to the stereotyping/caricatures of blacks since we have the more detailed history on that issue, but I bet I could find just as many scholarly articles discussing the problem of Chinese caricatures or stereotyping in Japan. Again, I don't think Japan is racist or artists who put stuff out like this are racist without us understanding their intent or having some other indications. I just think they are ignorant. I do, however, think the art in TerraFormars is racially offensive and disturbing because of my knowledge on the issue. To Levitz9's point though, if the author of TerraFormars has been made aware of this and is like "So what?" Well, then I think it's something more than just ignorance. Remember, for many years even after the U.S. retired the Sambo and blackface type characters, we still had an entertainment industry of "Blacksploitation" media. Did that make all of America racist? No. It just meant we were finding our way and there was still a lot of ignorance. We've moved beyond that too, and so can Japan. |
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Ali07
Posts: 3333 Location: Victoria, Australia |
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I'd have to fully agree with you. And, while we may not know if he has been told or hear what his intentions were...if anything has been said, it could be reflected later on in his work. I've no idea how many volumes were done before they decided on licensing the series overseas, but it could be something that (if it happens) isn't seen for at least few more volumes. As for the rest of your post, it helped me form a bit more of a bigger picture of it all in my mind. Thanks, it certainly is an interesting topic. |
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Shippoyasha
Posts: 459 |
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I don't think they really aim at black people for being unable to speak properly. It's just that there's a general sense that foreigners struggle with speaking perfect Japanese and people think it's kind of cute. It's never seen as something outright derogatory in any variety TV programming or real life experiences for me.
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DavetheUsher
 Posts: 505 |
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That's not your call to make, man. The reason I love manga and anime is because they don't dumb things down for general audiences like America does. Japanese writers shouldn't have to curb their creative juices just because some white guys halfway across the world get offended by something. People here in America get offended over every little thing so that's gonna be a pretty long list. See, the lack of obsession with being PC is why I find black characters in anime so much more interesting and relatable than black characters in western cartoons. It's hard as hell for me to find black characters I can like here because everything anyone does is called out as racist. In the west it's all got to be PC and stuff, which means they're so bland and forgettable to be as inoffensive as possible incase someone throws a fit. The one time we get a black princess in a Disney movie it caused a stink because she had a 'black name' and 'are they calling her a frog'. So much scrutiny anytime you try to make a black character it's no wonder most shows don't even bother when you got people hovering over you criticizing everything you ever do. Meanwhile Killer B, Yoruichi, Ed, Dutch, Aokiji are all way cooler and more interesting. I've seen people complain Killer B rapping is racist, Aokiji being lazy is racist, and man, who cares if Aokiji is lazy, he's badass and awesome, he can loaf around if he wants. Just because some people somewhere decided lazy black man was a stereotype now means no one with dark skin can be lazy without criticism? I'm glad Oda doesn't 'be accountable' for his depictions. When Oda said Usopp would be African in real life, I'm surprised people didn't throw a fit at the cowardly guy being Africa. The reason we lack minorities in our media is because you people scare away writers. No writer wants to be called a racist, so they just stick to the safe status quo and let someone else stick their neck out and risk it. Really messed up when a country with no black people is in a better position of making black characters. So I say if this guy wants to use homo erectus, let him. If anyone doesn't like it because they only see a black stereotype when looking at homo erectus, they don't have to read the manga. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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^ So in other words, the reason American media sucks right now is because they stopped blacksploitation and minstrel shows. If only they brought those back, there'd be more black characters. Thanks for your input.
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