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Answerman - Terrible People


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Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:32 pm Reply with quote
Fedora-san wrote:
I wonder if Handley, or that guy who got arrested by customs for having a manga on him and they decided to slap him with child porn charges and got them to be labeled sex offenders would agree anime fans are not discriminated against.

I doubt that he was arrested for being a manga fan. He was arrested because somebody thought that what he had was child pornography.
I believe that he would have been arrested even if the drawings had been made in the US, or anywhere else in the world.
The fact that it was manga was not the issue.

He was not arrested for having manga.
He was arrested for having child pornography.
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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:39 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Ah, cynicism. I might be too new of a streaming fan (got into anime in the mid-late 90s, started watching simulcasts around 2011) for cynicism to really be much of a problem for me. Granted, I also jumped into simulcasts when the moe boom was fairly big, so for me, it's par for the course and not really a "back in my day it was better" kind of thing.

But I think it also helps that I know I have particular tastes in anime and that I acknowledge that the anime industry is very much not targeting me, so finding a show I like ends up being something of a happy accident.

Lastly, being choosy about my anime means that I don't usually watch more than 3 or 4 shows per season. When seasons/shows overlap into the next season, it get kind of hairy keeping up with everything, but since I'm not watching 20 shows at a time or anything crazy like that, I think it helps prevent me from feeling like I'm seeing the same old thing again and again.


I think that is key for me as well. I occasionally will look at the list of upcoming anime and cringe at the multitude of shows that don't appeal to me at all, but I try not to let it bother me too much because I usually only watch a couple shows per season anyway. When it reaches 5 or more, its a pleasant surprise, but even if there aren't any, I'm usually fine with it. I know that next season there will probably be something that grabs my interest. I will usually pick more shows as the season goes on as well. Once I can see which other shows are getting lots of buzz, high ratings, and whatever else, I'm much more likely to give them a chance, even if they aren't necessarily in my go-to genres.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4070
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:46 pm Reply with quote
mgosdin wrote:
Cynicism, yes Anime fandom & industry has it's fair share.
Mark Gosdin


I like to think of it from another perspective: people are deluding themselves into thinking anime is something that it's not which brings out my inner cynic. And just reading some of these posts makes me wonder if most of you realize what's driving the industry; Product {My cynic automatically hears the cry of "It's not making an awesome show for me personally?"}.

Every show tries to take its own little slice of the constantly thinning pie, whether its moving its source material or its music or its stars or, I kid you not, the show itself. See, the problem here isn't that anime isn't the end result of years of selective marketing, its main audience is.

The moe "boom" was a trend that's already on the downward tack? The five and more light novel adaptations {with the occasional manga adaptation and anime originals because that still happens} involving the ordinary/empowered boys and outrageous/ordinary girl/girls every season would disagree with you and yeah, they're not going away any time soon because that is the audience. The shows that dare, the ones that care? They're the minority.

Light novels built around over concentrated key images and computer animation which not only allows easy processing and manipulation of said images but it does it cheap enough that there can be a proliferation of studios doing nothing but that? How does that not invoke the image of a perfect downward spiral in anyone's mind?

And this is coming from a fan of such shows.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:51 pm Reply with quote
Touma wrote:
He was not arrested for having manga.
He was arrested for having child pornography.


In those cases they were arrested for having manga, which the government considered to be child pornography. So yes, these people were arrested for having manga.

Discrimination and bigotry are born out of ignorance. Not knowing what manga is or can include is a part of the problem in cases like that. If they see someone with manga or an anime background on his computer, they may search his belongings to see if they can find loli or other things that can be used for charges. If the age old stereotype of "all anime is hentai" is on their mind, they may consider it enough grounds for probable cause. So someone without a manga book in their hand might be ignored in favor of someone with one.

-Stuart Smith
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Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:00 pm Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:
In those cases they were arrested for having manga, which the government considered to be child pornography. So yes, these people were arrested for having manga.

You are free to believe what you want.

I believe that those people would have been arrested even if the drawings had not been made in Japan.
I actually doubt that the people responsible for the arrest knew the country of origin. But that is just speculation.
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Wyvern



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 1544
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:05 pm Reply with quote
Justin, thank you so much for your smart and thoughtful response to that second letter. Especially in the wake of some current news stories I could mention, there are few things I find more frustrating than someone telling me that they're "discriminated" against because their fandom has occasionally been the subject of internet jokes.

If anything, I'd say otaku deal with far less mockery online now than we used to. For a while in the previous decade we were probably the #1 target of predictable internet fandom jokes (not that any of this qualified as discrimination, or anything remotely close to it) but this has long since leveled off. In my estimation we ceded the "most disrespected fandom" crown to Bronies a couple of years ago.

(Or maybe it was someone else? Eh, whatever, it's the internet.)
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 6248
Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:24 pm Reply with quote
First of all, I like to say this week Answerman was very interesting to read.

Thank you for telling us what departments made up anime companies, thanks for breaking it down. Now I understand better. Very Happy

Regarding discrimination against otaku (particularly anime otaku), I know in Japan's discrimination against otaku can happen. well I know there are anime haters online which lead to hating people that are otaku. (but by today's standard, I don't think I view them as significant anymore). But it's possible otaku could get discriminated because well there are ignorant people in the US (aka: the not open-minded folks). But it's not like anime is mainstream, so it's not a big issue to me.

About cynicism in anime fandom, to be honest, I never look into this or got curious about it. But that's interesting to read.

Anyway, really like this week Answerman. Smile
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Lavnovice9



Joined: 23 Oct 2012
Posts: 276
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:47 pm Reply with quote
Cynicism in the anime fandom just depends where you look. I know a lot of people here tend to be cynical since the general populace on ANN prefer older stuff and like to hate on moe. Other places they get hyped for the newest season of Precure, or Bake, or Love Live, or SAO and think anime is improving year after year.

Just depends on your own mindset and what community you identify with and surround yourself with.
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Usagi-kun



Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 877
Location: Nashville, TN
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:26 pm Reply with quote
I personally have never felt discrimination, been singled out, or isolated because of my love of anime. I was always wierd and a social oddity, but people actually seemed to find that interesting. Without launching into a philosophically pandering rant, I think we are all individuals who place individual measurements of worth and self esteem. People respond to strength in those areas and call that character. Anyone can do that, anime or no.

Sometimes I do wonder what I am supposed to take away from my shows today though. And that does mark me as cynical outlooking for the future of my fandom, however, I can still express my overall enjoyment. Or I can brood, but painting everyone else with such a broad brush in practice is the mark of another type of phenomenon: being jaded, and partnered with youth and lack of experience in the world creates a psychological condition rather than philosophical identity. Not recognizing the contradiction and difference in mindset can lead to disturbing behaviors.
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Guile



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:21 pm Reply with quote
Wyvern wrote:

Justin, thank you so much for your smart and thoughtful response to that second letter. Especially in the wake of some current news stories I could mention, there are few things I find more frustrating than someone telling me that they're "discriminated" against because their fandom has occasionally been the subject of internet jokes.


The whole discrimination segment seemed like it was ignoring the point of the question and more focused on the semantics. Discrimination is defined as

: the practice of unfairly treating a person or group of people differently from other people or groups of people

:to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit

In no place does the definition limit itself towards specifically race, gender, or religion, nor does it also refer to health coverage or other specific instances. It's a broad term that can be used liberally. In that regard anyone can be discriminated against for just about anything. Employers have been criticized for discrimination for things such as hobbies or lifestyles before.

Even if one chooses not to use the word discrimination, you can still be bullied, insulted, assaulted, ostracized, criminalized, and other negative things based simply on your hobbies, which I felt was more of what the person was asking. It doesn't have to be limited to online forums at all.
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kanechin



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
Posts: 447
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:51 pm Reply with quote
I'm cynical because I know why a lot of things I want to see get an anime adaption will never happen. I know it's not just because moe sells a ton. Some things that do get an adaption end up sucking or not receiving a full adaption. Certain things start off great (like cardfight) then later turn into s***. A lot of series are recolor clones of things I've already seen. I hate romance in most anime.
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Autobus Prime



Joined: 29 Aug 2014
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:14 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:
Regarding discrimination against otaku (particularly anime otaku), I know in Japan discrimination against otaku can happen.


The business world is more like Japan than you may realize, or than Justin Sevakis may realize. He has spent his entire career since 2000 in the anime industry. I've been into anime for a little bit longer, but I work as an engineer. I'm unhappy to report that the business world can be very Japanese, in the worst possible way - very biased against anyone who doesn't seem to be like everyone else around
him.

If you are a geek or otaku and don't hide it, even if you do not have the stereotypical lack of social skills, many people will consider you to be weird at best and deviant at worst. Heaven help you if you cosplay or go to conventions. Most of the otaku I knew acted like the computer programmer in Otaku no Video. Very defensive and cagey. If you're open about it, you will pay. You will get less respect and fewer promotions from the 'normals', and when difficult situations happen, the 'weird' people are more likely to be the ones laid off. Trust me. It's happened to me and I've seen it happen to others. You're safe at the lower levels, but if you ever want to succeed in some businesses, you had better keep quiet about the anime, and take up drinking and golf.

You can still do anime in private. Consider it your secret perversion. Secret vices are perfectly acceptable and easy to hide in the business world.

Usagi-kun wrote:
I personally have never felt discrimination, been singled out, or isolated because of my love of anime. I was always wierd and a social oddity, but people actually seemed to find that interesting.


You were always weird and a social oddity.

Think about that.

Think about yourself. Are you weird? Are you odd? I doubt it. But if you aren't being singled out, where does that feeling come from?

You are being singled out. You always have been. But it doesn't feel negative where you are, and that's excellent. But the unfortunate reality is that there are places like the business world where being weird and a social oddity is very, very, bad. The business world is very Japanese in the worst way possible. Watch Otaku no Video. The satirical dialogue in the mockumentary segments is literally the way the 'normals' in the business world will think.

In business, it's very bad to be interesting.

Justin Sevakis can say there is no discrimination, but he has worked all his career in the anime business. Of course he's been accepted. But if he was a machine salesman or a chemical engineer and he wanted to get anywhere in his career, he'd have to pretend to be a different person in his 9 to 5 (more like 9 to 9) existence.

It's not the worst kind of discrimination that persists in that world, but it's there. It's not just something found in Japan. American business is not so different. The middle class has never gone easy on people who were countercultural in any way.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:39 pm Reply with quote
Touma wrote:
Stuart Smith wrote:
In those cases they were arrested for having manga, which the government considered to be child pornography. So yes, these people were arrested for having manga.

You are free to believe what you want.

I believe that those people would have been arrested even if the drawings had not been made in Japan.
I actually doubt that the people responsible for the arrest knew the country of origin. But that is just speculation.

You are wrong about the charge. The crime specifically relates to obscenity not child pornography per se. The post office who first opened Handley's package and the DA knew about the country of origin. It can be easily determined by language of the manga. There have been two other arrests and guilty pleas following Handley's case I'm aware of.

But you are right that country of origin doesn't matter, as others have been arrested before for locally produced drawings. Like Mike Diana:
http://cbldf.org/about-us/case-files/cbldf-case-files/cbldf-case-files-mike-diana/

In fact, you don't even need drawings. Text alone can get you in trouble, though the threshold for offense appears to be higher.

It just takes someone offended enough to make it happen, which is actually the legal definition of obscenity in a nutshell (the 3 factor Miller test, distilled). And erotic elements in anime/manga tend to push the offended/morality buttons of people more.

Finally even though the specific statutes are different, obscenity also applies to adult live action. There have also been recent arrests in the US for this too.


Last edited by configspace on Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1684
Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Guile wrote:
The whole discrimination segment seemed like it was ignoring the point of the question and more focused on the semantics.

You seem to have completely missed the point of what I wrote, so let me address it directly in bullet points:

• The sort of discrimination defined by the question, while meeting the dictionary definition, is unimportant in comparison to visibly and legally damaging discrimination suffered by millions of people all around us as a matter of course. It is not institutional, any consequences against it are unenforcable, and damages as a result of it, if any, are unprovable.

• Another term for this sort of discrimination is "people being jerks." People will always be jerks, especially on the internet. Being into something that is not mainstream will always be a target for jerks. Being into Japanese stuff is just an easy "you're different than me" point to pick. Without it, jerks will find something else.

• People are jerks for many, usually unrelated reasons, including youth, general unhappiness with their own lives, and psychological issues. You cannot effectively do away with jerks in any large social setting, at least without some massive chilling effects.

• The best and most reliable remedy against this sort of discrimination is to not engage and avoid the jerks. As this remedy is usually easy for the person to do, many claims of victimhood look ridiculous.
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Gasero



Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 939
Location: USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:45 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
But if you paint yourself as a victim, you actually empower the people bringing you down as your captives. You give yourself a pass for not being strong, because you've given yourself permission to be the loser in this scenario...all you needed to do was stop giving them that power over you.

I just wanted to comment on how true I think this is. It seems that a lot of times people will spend most of their energy claiming to be victimized and oppressed rather than doing their own thing and not worrying about other people's bigoted opinions. I can't stress enough that your mind is the one thing that others cannot control, and once you let someone defeat you mentally you have defeated yourself.
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